Interesting parallel to Words of Radiance . . .

[Eran of Arcadia]

. . . when Yumi is floating on the tree to get to Torio City, it is trying to return to the shroud but she forces her will on it to remain a tree.

In other words, she convinces it to be a stick.

[Lightspen of the Glass Sea she/her]

Ha. Yumi is an interesting parallel to Shallan. She was sheltered too, but was a lot more capable of willfulness anyway.

[Nitpicking]

On 7/2/2023 at 10:04 PM, Lightspen of the Glass Sea said:

Ha. Yumi is an interesting parallel to Shallan. She was sheltered too, but was a lot more capable of willfulness anyway.

Actually, Lightweaving would seem to be a Virtuosity thing that other Shards copied, now that you mention it. I wonder which Shard first started sending souls back to the Physical (like Endowment sends the Returned) and having other Shards (e. g. Honor, maybe Autonomy) copy that.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

5 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

Actually, Lightweaving would seem to be a Virtuosity thing that other Shards copied, now that you mention it. I wonder which Shard first started sending souls back to the Physical (like Endowment sends the Returned) and having other Shards (e. g. Honor, maybe Autonomy) copy that.

Lightweaving originated on Yolen, before Shards existed. But it does align with Virtuosity's Intent.

[Nitpicking]

3 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Lightweaving originated on Yolen, before Shards existed. But it does align with Virtuosity's Intent.

Yes. In fact, it originated before the Shattering, when Virtuosity was a component of the living Adonalsium.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

20 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

Yes. In fact, it originated before the Shattering, when Virtuosity was a component of the living Adonalsium.

Exactly. When it comes to magic systems, we can't really say one Shard copied another, since they form more based on the nature of the Shard than the Shard's direct wishes. Another thing to note is that Virtuosity wouldn't have existed as an important aspect of Adonalsium, not any more than any of the other hundreds of possible attributes a God-Like being could have. The 16 Shards aren't 16 fundamental parts of the Cosmere, they're random attributes of Adonalsium that were polarised against each other and separated in the Shattering. We know this because had things played out differently, a different number of Shards could have been plausibly produced, with different Intents.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[Frustration]

On 7/28/2023 at 6:25 PM, Nitpicking said:

Actually, Lightweaving would seem to be a Virtuosity thing that other Shards copied, now that you mention it. I wonder which Shard first started sending souls back to the Physical (like Endowment sends the Returned) and having other Shards (e. g. Honor, maybe Autonomy) copy that.

Odium with the Fused is the first we know of.

Then Honor with the Heralds.

Then thousands of years later Endowment does it.

[alder24]

On 29.07.2023 at 2:25 AM, Nitpicking said:

Actually, Lightweaving would seem to be a Virtuosity thing that other Shards copied, now that you mention it. I wonder which Shard first started sending souls back to the Physical (like Endowment sends the Returned) and having other Shards (e. g. Honor, maybe Autonomy) copy that.

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Odium with the Fused is the first we know of.

Then Honor with the Heralds.

Then thousands of years later Endowment does it.

Technically Shades were first, maybe all Shards just copied it. But tbf they all would know this is possible even before the first CS was made. The power knows. 

[Firesong she/her]

We at least have an idea that Fused were made more than 6,600 years before Stormlight (via Lezian being at least 6000 Rosharan years old). Heralds were made not long after. Returned came around 600 years before Warbreaker, which is around 100 years (doubt it is any more than that, given things Brandon has said), so around 700 years before Warbreaker. 

So, yeah, that is currently the order that we know so far (although I am of the opinion that Vo might not be the First Returned, but as far as we know he is, so I am going with that). Shades we have no clue, but they either predate, or came right after, the fight between Odium and Ambition, which was over 6,600 years ago.  So, they definitely predate Fused and Heralds, and therefore predate Returned as well. 

[alder24]

35 minutes ago, Firesong said:

We at least have an idea that Fused were made more than 6,600 years before Stormlight (via Lezian being at least 6000 Rosharan years old). Heralds were made not long after.

7000 years. RoW ch 80, 82 epigraphs:

Quote

"The singers first put Jezrien into a gemstone. They think they are clever, discovering they can trap us in those. It only took them seven thousand years."

"Oh … Father … Seven thousand years."

 

39 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Returned came around 600 years before Warbreaker, which is around 100 years (doubt it is any more than that, given things Brandon has said), so around 700 years before Warbreaker. 

Right. We need to know how many years Warbreaker is before WoK. At one point he said 300 years or so, later hundreds and was happening at the same time as AoL, but AoL now is in between SA 5 and SA 6 so we don't know it anymore. It's at least 20 or so years before WoK as Adolin trained with Zahel. 

[Firesong she/her]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

7000 years. RoW ch 80, 82 epigraphs:

 

Right. We need to know how many years Warbreaker is before WoK. At one point he said 300 years or so, later hundreds and was happening at the same time as AoL, but AoL now is in between SA 5 and SA 6 so we don't know it anymore. It's at least 20 or so years before WoK as Adolin trained with Zahel. 

So ~7,700, thanks.

Brandon said in a WoB that it was a few generations between WB and WoK, most recently. 

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Firesong said:

So ~7,700, thanks.

Where did this 700 come from? I know Fused were earlier than Heralds but why by that much?

7 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Brandon said in a WoB that it was a few generations between WB and WoK, most recently. 

Thanks, I found it. He still changes timeline so it isn't set in stone yet:

Spoiler

LewsTherinTelescope

How long after Warbreaker does Way of Kings take place? I know you usually don't finalize timeline details until they actually are stated in-book, but are you willing to say how far apart the books are, in the current plans?

Brandon Sanderson

I have Warbreaker happening a few generations before, right now.  However, I'm very likely to move Elantris up in time, so it's a little in the air at the moment.

LewsTherinTelescope

Thanks! I assume asking why Elantris being moved affects how far apart Warbreaker and Way of Kings are is a behind-the-scenes thing and/or RAFO?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it does.  The big linchpin is going to be when I need Sel and Scadrial to align when big crossovers start happening.  We'll know in a few years; there are things I intend to write that I could imagine needing to change, after they're finished, that will influence the timeline structure.

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 5, 2020)

 

[Firesong she/her]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Where did this 700 come from? I know Fused were earlier than Heralds but why by that much?

Thanks, I found it. He still changes timeline so it isn't set in stone yet:

  Reveal hidden contents

LewsTherinTelescope

How long after Warbreaker does Way of Kings take place? I know you usually don't finalize timeline details until they actually are stated in-book, but are you willing to say how far apart the books are, in the current plans?

Brandon Sanderson

I have Warbreaker happening a few generations before, right now.  However, I'm very likely to move Elantris up in time, so it's a little in the air at the moment.

LewsTherinTelescope

Thanks! I assume asking why Elantris being moved affects how far apart Warbreaker and Way of Kings are is a behind-the-scenes thing and/or RAFO?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it does.  The big linchpin is going to be when I need Sel and Scadrial to align when big crossovers start happening.  We'll know in a few years; there are things I intend to write that I could imagine needing to change, after they're finished, that will influence the timeline structure.

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 5, 2020)

 

Because we are converting into standard years, as we are comparing times on different planets, Rosharan years are 1.1x longer than the standard year length. 

[alder24]

Just now, Firesong said:

Because we are converting into standard years, as we are comparing times on different planets, Rosharan years are 1.1x longer than the standard year length. 

Oh right, I keep forgetting about it. 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Technically Shades were first, maybe all Shards just copied it. But tbf they all would know this is possible even before the first CS was made. The power knows. 

They were asking for the first time a Shard did it.

The first CS likely predates the Shattering.

[Firesong she/her]

I wonder, are Returned directly copied from the Fused and Heralds? We do know that a lot of Warbreaker was intentionally made to have connections with Stormlight. 

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I wonder, are Returned directly copied from the Fused and Heralds? We do know that a lot of Warbreaker was intentionally made to have connections with Stormlight. 

They don't look like that. They are weak CS, need investiture to stay in that form, unlike Fused and Heralds. Inspired maybe, copied no.

[Firesong she/her]

Just now, alder24 said:

They don't look like that. They are weak CS, need investiture to stay in that form, unlike Fused and Heralds. Inspired maybe, copied no.

True, true. I should have worded myself better. 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 7/2/2023 at 10:04 PM, Lightspen of the Glass Sea said:

Ha. Yumi is an interesting parallel to Shallan. She was sheltered too, but was a lot more capable of willfulness anyway.

I feel that Shallan would be a lot more capable too if she suddenly had the realization she was thousands of years old and had been practicing her art all that time. I am pretty sure Shallan is, ~18-19 atm in SA. I would think if Shallan were able to live as long as Yumi that she would be beyond a force to be reckoned with in the Cosmere.

 

On 7/28/2023 at 8:44 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The 16 Shards aren't 16 fundamental parts of the Cosmere, they're random attributes of Adonalsium that were polarised against each other and separated in the Shattering.

Were they random? Or, where they by the Intent of those wielding the Dawnshards to shape the Shards into those 16 aspects for whatever purpose? Does anyone know if there is WoB about that? That feels like RAFO territory to me though.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

Just now, JohnnyKaizen said:

Were they random? Or, where they by the Intent of those wielding the Dawnshards to shape the Shards into those 16 aspects for whatever purpose? Does anyone know if there is WoB about that? That feels like RAFO territory to me though.

It depends. We assume that the Intents have something to do with the Dawnshards, but nothing's been confirmed as far as I know. I personally think it was due to the people that were there, since we have WoBs saying that Adonalsium could have been Shattered into a different number of Shards, that the Intents of the Shards could have been different, and that changing the people who were present, including how many were there, would also have counted.

Quote

Paladin Brewer

Was it necessary that Adonalsium split into sixteen Shards, or was it happenstance?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO that one.

Paladin Brewer

Would the number or intents have been different, if there were more or less people?

Brandon Sanderson

That's all wrapped up in that RAFO. Let's say it's conceivable that the split could have happened in different ways.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

 

Quote

James Furr

If, instead of the 16, there had been 20 members at the Shattering of Adonalsium (with the same level of involvedness)...could it have Shattered into 20 pieces?

Brandon Sanderson

It's quite possible that a different number could have ended up working.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018)

 

Quote

Eric

If Adonalsium Shattered with intent, would he always Shatter with the same Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

It is plausible that it could've gone a different way.

Eric

So it could've been different Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that's plausible.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

This one isn't as relevant, but there are some implications that the kinds of people the Shatterers were might have affected what Shards were produced (and by extension that other Intents were possible if the people were different):

Spoiler

Karthikeyan Eswaran

For a person to ascend as a [Vessel], is it enough to have a Connection with the Shard, or does their general intent/mindset have to align with the Intent of the Shard (like Rayse and Odium have both shown similar mindsets)? If the intent needs to be similar, how did Ati, who was described as a kind person, pick up a Shard like Ruin? And if the intent doesn't need to be similar, how did the people at the Shattering manage to ascend, as the Shards had just been created? Did they have to go through some process to create a Connection? Or did they all somehow already have a Connection with Adonalsium (and thus with all the Shards) which made it easier to Ascend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there did need to be some Connection created--there was a lot going on with this. But it is possible for intents to not align and someone to take a Shard. It's way easier if intents do align, but humans don't tend to align 100% to any specific intent.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018)

Found one that outright affirms the implications the WoB was making:

Quote

Questioner

Are the Intents of all the Shards related to the individuals who were involved in the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson

"Related to"? Slightly, but not as much as you probably would think.

FanX 2021 (Sept. 16, 2021)  

Another one that reaffirms this, slightly:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Brandon said offhandedly, "It is not random who got which Shard." Also, Shards very rarely change hands. Brandon emphasized the "very" there.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

And another one that says the same thing:

Quote

senjox

We've seen in both Secret History and RoW that a Shard's power has a will of its own and can "reject" a vessel if it's not adequate (like Preservation with Kelsier) and "tempt" if it is (like Odium with Taravangian). Does that mean that the first sixteen that Ascended needed to be fit for their respective shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. To an extent, yes. It was a little easier back then, but yes.

*Thinks for a while*

Yes. So, why am I hesitating on this? Not all of the sixteen could've taken any one of the sixteen. So not all the Vessels could take any of the sixteen. But the flexibility of which ones they could've taken, was much greater than you're perhaps anticipating right now. There were certain Shards that they had, they deliberately had a person pick up, that they thought would be a better controller of that Shard, if that makes sense. Rather than picking the person who is the best match. So, there you go.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

Here's a fun little possibility:

Quote

Questioner

We know the Shattering was done on purpose. Is it having broken up into intents the only way that it could have shattered, or could it have actually shattered into like sixteen pieces pieces that all have the sixteen intents.

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to RAFO this, because this is not a book i will write for many years and I do not want to start giving spoilers about it.

Shadows of Self Portland signing (Oct. 10, 2015)

So it's likely that the Shatterers weren't intending to create Shards with specific Intents, though it's likely possible they could've if they tried. Instead, their personalities and perhaps end goals likely had some influence over what Shards were produced.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

19 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to RAFO this, because this is not a book i will write for many years and I do not want to start giving spoilers about it.

That was in 2015..How many years is "many" to him I wonder. I hope less than 10

[Firesong she/her]

1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

That was in 2015..How many years is "many" to him I wonder. I hope less than 10

It means Dragonsteel, which is after Mistborn Era 3, and Elantris 2 and 3, and Stormlight Era 2, and before Era 4. So still a while is left. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Firesong

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

20 hours ago, Firesong said:

It means Dragonsteel, which is after Mistborn Era 3, and Elantris 2 and 3, and Stormlight Era 2, and before Era 4. So still a while is left. 

Boooooooooo hiss. But I also want to read all of that..so I guess i'll wait lol