Ale the Metallic Conjurer Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) Ruin was an amazing villain, but he could’ve done more. One of the only flaws I have with The Hero of Ages is that Ruin didn’t manipulate kandra. I understand he’s a god trying to destroy the world, but he TAUGHT Rashek how to use Hemalurgy. Ruin was essentially responsible for creating kandra. And we saw how he efficiently he controlled koloss and Inquisitors, and those who’ve had spikes for exponentially less time. The kandra should’ve been his pawns throughout their 1000 years of life, manipulated them in a similar way as TLR and Vin. I imagine he could influence the Generations to grow more complacent, OreSeur and TenSoon to become relatively rebellious kandra, and KanPaar to start a revolt. Even if the kandra still pull out their spikes (which makes no sense imo), at least this enhances the threat of Ruin. I was discussing with a friend about Ruin’s influence on the world of Scadrial, and we agreed that Ruin should’ve done more with his Apocalypse. It would’ve been better if Ruin enveloped Scadrial in more natural disasters - floods, hurricanes, more earthquakes, tsunamis, thunderstorms, blizzards etc… Granted, it’s possible Ruin didn’t create more natural disasters because he wants humanity alive to benefit his search for atium. I just realized that Ruin’s nigh-omniscience seems more limited than it should. The amateur Vin could sense the humans that are within the storage caverns. The amateur Sazed could sense the inhabitants within the metal-covered Trustwarren and storage caverns, protect them and move them around. According to a WoB he healed everyone in them. I know that Ruin could probably see through places like Fadrex's cavern, considering he interacted with Vin, But it sounds… off that Ruin couldn’t sense his atium, or at least not be aware of the Kandra Homeland. Also, I don’t 100% like that Ruin’s personality is mainly a representation of death and entropy. I understand he’s supposed to be a force of change, so I wish his actions _showed_ a side focused on change. We know he guided Kelsier towards crafting his rebellion, so he could’ve been responsible for other rebellions throughout history. The Crescent and Remote Dominances, and the Southern islands, seems to have been outside of Empire control. So Ruin could’ve taught them how to make advancements in technology. Since he’s a being of change, perhaps his goals could remain the same but his _personality_ is more neutral and calmer than canon. I don’t think Ruin is truly malicious, but his gloating(ugh) comes across that way. And according to folks over here, Ruin is one of the worst Shards at seeing the future. I have a big problem with that. Ruin is supposed to hasten and represent the inevitabilities of death and entropy and change. Preservation only wants to keep the universe the same. Even if Ruin is worse at precognition there shouldn’t be a big gap. Though I can’t speak about the Shards until I read more, so hopefully there are Shards that justify Brandon’s perspective on Ruin’s precognition. Edited June 30, 2023 by AllomanticChainDude 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) Welcome to the forums. Before we cover possible spoilers, can you tell us have you read any Mistborn other than the first Trilogy (Such as Era 2 and especially Mistborn Secret History <spoilers for Era 2, Bands of Mourning and Lost Metal>). How about other works in the Cosmere, have you read any of them? I'll try to limit possible spoilers until we know for sure. On 6/30/2023 at 6:08 AM, AllomanticChainDude said: I just realized that Ruin’s nigh-omniscience seems more limited than it should. It's not really omniscience, rather a capacity to see/experiiece more without much limitation on location - but is still very bounded by how much he can divide his attention to events. Covered in greater detail in Mistborn Secret History. Quote The amateur Vin could sense the humans that are within the storage caverns. The amateur Sazed could sense the inhabitants within the metal-covered Trustwarren and storage caverns, protect them and move them around. This deals with the fact that Preservation and Ruin were opposites in this as well (covered more in-depth in Secret History) - Vessels holding Preservation can receive thoughts and impressions from mortals, but not send information (displayed in the "mist spirit's" inability to talk or send thougths to Vin or Elend) - but Ruin can only send thoughts (not hear thoughts). Vin had preservation, and could hear (but not "speak" to Elend*) - and Sazed picked up both (and could both send and receive). Some thought did get through to ELend, but only because they shared another Connection beside's her Shardic nature - also explained more in Secret History. Quote I know that Ruin could probably see through places like Fadrex's cavern, considering he interacted with Vin, But it sounds… off that Ruin couldn’t sense his atium, or at least not be aware of the Kandra Homeland. Ruin could only see into places like that when an individual with whom he had a connection was present. He "saw" into the Fadrex Cavern only once Vin arrived (and still could not determine the Cache was not there until told - because he wasn't really "seeing the cavern" so much as "seeing Vin's location" and interacting with her. It's the same reason he needed Marsh to read Spook's message aloud. On 6/30/2023 at 6:08 AM, AllomanticChainDude said: Also, I don’t 100% like that Ruin’s personality is mainly a representation of death and entropy. His personality is a specific clue, not only for Mistborn, but for other things happening in the Cosmere. On 6/30/2023 at 6:08 AM, AllomanticChainDude said: And according to folks over here, Ruin is one of the worst Shards at seeing the future. I have a big problem with that. Ruin is supposed to hasten and represent the inevitabilities of death and entropy and change. It's because of this that his ability to "see" well is limited. He's blinded by events that lead to decay without seeing the possibilities that don't go down that path. Edited July 10, 2023 by Treamayne SPAG 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftl Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 Quote One of the only flaws I have with The Hero of Ages is that Ruin didn’t manipulate kandra. I understand he’s a god trying to destroy the world, but he TAUGHT Rashek how to use Hemalurgy. Ruin was essentially responsible for creating kandra. And we saw how he efficiently he controlled koloss and Inquisitors, and those who’ve had spikes for exponentially less time. The kandra should’ve been his pawns throughout their 1000 years of life, manipulated them in a similar way as TLR and Vin. Well, he could only actually control them after he was released at the end of Well of Ascension. Before that he could send them vague messages and hints, like he did with everybody else spiked, but... his attention is limited and he didn't see anything important to do with them. They don't kill, they don't really even plot, they're basically glorified servants... Quote I imagine he could influence the Generations to grow more complacent, OreSeur and TenSoon to become relatively rebellious kandra, and KanPaar to start a revolt. Even if the kandra still pull out their spikes (which makes no sense imo), at least this enhances the threat of Ruin. I don't think he thought that would be relevant. After he's released, the Kandra were already his to take over if he ever cared to do so (which he didn't.) Before he was released, the Kandra weren't necessary to get him released (and in fact, with no intervention, OreSeur still played his part just by being a dutiful servant.) He was wrong, of course. But, well, a god of death and destruction overlooking the ways a group of obedient pacifists might be important - entirely in character. Quote I was discussing with a friend about Ruin’s influence on the world of Scadrial, and we agreed that Ruin should’ve done more with his Apocalypse. It would’ve been better if Ruin enveloped Scadrial in more natural disasters - floods, hurricanes, more earthquakes, tsunamis, thunderstorms, blizzards etc… Granted, it’s possible Ruin didn’t create more natural disasters because he wants humanity alive to benefit his search for atium. I think even after being released, he was held back by Preservation. Yes, Preservation was weaker, but he at least could prevent Ruin from, like, just destroying the world with a snap of his fingers; Ruin was able to intensify processes that were already there (power up the volcanoes and the mists), which would have been enough after about a year or two, but couldn't just be like "and now the oceans boil". Quote I just realized that Ruin’s nigh-omniscience seems more limited than it should. It's definitely limited. He can look anywhere he wants (except where there's too much metal, which obscures things) but he can still only focus on one thing at a time, and has a human attention span. If he doesn't know to look somewhere or for something, he won't see whatever's there. If he's distracted by something else, he can miss events happening. Quote But it sounds… off that Ruin couldn’t sense his atium, or at least not be aware of the Kandra Homeland. The Lord Ruler's misdirection was successful in a few ways. First, the Kandra Homeland was at the pits of hathsin - a place where there's already a lot of atium and a lot of metal. Sure, Ruin could sense "hey there's a lot of metal here". But it didn't look much different than any other metal-rich region. And even if he sensed "hey, there's atium somewhere here" - well, YEAH there is, this is where the Atium comes from! So Ruin spent his time trying to track down where the Atium WENT from there. And was unsuccessful at it. TLR took the "atium" in hidden boxes into other places hidden from Ruin, made it get lost in a maze of transfers. It's not that the Kandra homeland was entirely hidden from Ruin, he probably knew it was there, he just didn't figure out its significance; that all that Atium he was chasing never left the pits in the first place. After he was released, he could have taken more direct routes to investigate the atium-smuggling, that might work better than just spying out the keyhole of his prison... ...but by that point, the atium-smuggling operation was done, died with The Lord Ruler and with the destruction of the Pits of Hathsin. There was just a pit of Atium hidden somewhere, lost among the metal deposits in the area anyway. And Ruin was still looking in the wrong place - led off on a wild goose chase by trying to track down the caverns and break into them. Quote I understand he’s supposed to be a force of change, so I wish his actions _showed_ a side focused on change. He says he's supposed to be a force of change, but I'm not sure he should be believed on that count. It's specifically some kinds of change - destruction and decay. (Stormlight Spoiler) Spoiler Cultivation is another part of change - change via growth. I bet Ruin and Cultivation working together would get along a heck of a lot better than Ruin and Preservation did. Ruin and Preservation worked together to create a planet, but then after it was created, their purposes were at odds - Preservation would want it to last forever, Ruin would want to destroy it. Ruin+Cultivation, on the other hand, would both be pretty happy with a never-ending cycle of birth/growth and then decay/destruction. Quote We know he guided Kelsier towards crafting his rebellion, so he could’ve been responsible for other rebellions throughout history. Huh, good point. Maybe he was behind other rebellions too. Not because they'd release him, but just because he wanted more destruction. Quote The Crescent and Remote Dominances, and the Southern islands, seems to have been outside of Empire control. So Ruin could’ve taught them how to make advancements in technology. Eh... that doesn't seem like it would be within his Intent. He's Ruin, advances in technology don't necessarily seem very ruinous (though some could be.) But I think The Lord Ruler did keep a close enough eye on those dominances so they couldn't, like, develop guns and conquer his final empire away from him. Quote Since he’s a being of change, perhaps his goals could remain the same but his _personality_ is more neutral and calmer than canon. I don’t think Ruin is truly malicious, but his gloating(ugh) comes across that way. Yeah, I don't think he's a being of change, regardless of what he says. He's a being of destruction and decay. His personality is long since warped by, well, being Ruin. He is pretty malicious, even if he wasn't always such. Quote And according to folks over here, Ruin is one of the worst Shards at seeing the future. I have a big problem with that. Ruin is supposed to hasten and represent the inevitabilities of death and entropy and change. Preservation only wants to keep the universe the same. Even if Ruin is worse at precognition there shouldn’t be a big gap. Fair point. It's always seemed to me a bit arbitrary, what Shards are good at seeing the future and which aren't. You can certainly make up justifications for why a particular Shard is as good or bad as it is based on its Intent, but as you point out you could just as easily make up an opposite "justification" and make it sound convincing even if it's wrong. I don't think we have the full picture for how good/bad all the different Shards are at foresight, though. There's people on these boards that use all the info about Shards that's been revealed throughout all the different books to try to make a table of how they relate to each other, groupings and pairings and such. Like the allomantic table, with metals divided into internal/external, pushing/pulling, etc, but for Shards... ...and with a heck of a lot less information. We definitely don't have the full picture here. Maybe when Brandon writes the origin story of the Shards, the Dragonsteel series, we'll get that table, and we'll be able to see "oh, Shards that are classified as Spiritual Pushing or whatever are the best at futuresight, whereas those which are Physical Pulling are the worst" and it'll make sense. (note - my made-up classifications here are not a spoiler because I literally just made them up for this example.) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) What other books have you read? 7 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: One of the only flaws I have with The Hero of Ages is that Ruin didn’t manipulate kandra. I understand he’s a god trying to destroy the world, but he TAUGHT Rashek how to use Hemalurgy. Ruin was essentially responsible for creating kandra. And we saw how he efficiently he controlled koloss and Inquisitors, and those who’ve had spikes for exponentially less time. The kandra should’ve been his pawns throughout their 1000 years of life, manipulated them in a similar way as TLR and Vin. I imagine he could influence the Generations to grow more complacent, OreSeur and TenSoon to become relatively rebellious kandra, and KanPaar to start a revolt. Even if the kandra still pull out their spikes (which makes no sense imo), at least this enhances the threat of Ruin. He couldn't control anybody while he was imprisoned in the Well. Only when the Well was close to being filled (less than a year) he slowly was able to reach out and whisper to some few individuals. But nothing more. His release enabled him to take full control over hemalurgic constructs. But just like he didn't force his control over all Koloss all the time (which allowed Vin and Elend to control a small army of them and believe everything is fine), he didn't enforce his control over Kandra - he didn't need them, and wasn't sure what was their role in overall plan. He just didn't consider them worthy of his time, they were pacifists hiding in their hole all the time. Only when he realized what their purpose was, did he take action. There is also another thing - he isn't omnipresent - his mind, the Vessel, can't be at all places at once. He can focus on one place (and that was always where Vin was) and pay little attention to many others (which was useful still, as he could order inquisitors, whisper to Penrod or Spook etc). That's why he didn't bother with them - he never focused his full mind on them until one of them left with a bag of Atium. For me it makes perfect sense why he didn't bother with them - they aren't fighters, they are spies, and there is nothing they could do that wasn't already being done by inquisitors or spiked people (like Penrod). He didn't need them. 7 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: I was discussing with a friend about Ruin’s influence on the world of Scadrial, and we agreed that Ruin should’ve done more with his Apocalypse. It would’ve been better if Ruin enveloped Scadrial in more natural disasters - floods, hurricanes, more earthquakes, tsunamis, thunderstorms, blizzards etc… Granted, it’s possible Ruin didn’t create more natural disasters because he wants humanity alive to benefit his search for atium. The problem with this is that he couldn't. Almost every bit of his power was thrown at opposing Preservation and almost every bit of Preservation was thrown at opposing Ruin. He couldn't accelerate the end more, because he was bound by Preservation. That's why he couldn't create more, that's why Vin's actions as Preservation were so important, because at first Ruin allowed her to act, and then threw his power to oppose her and force her to watch destruction made by her. He couldn't do anything more without regaining Atium. Spoiler Zas So what's up with the regeneration issue? With Shards? Because they only have so much power they can access at a certain time, but yet they still have more energy. So how does that work? Is it just they have so much power they can use at any given time? Brandon Sanderson What are you talking about? Like which shards? Zas Ruin and Preservation. Since we know the most about them. Brandon Sanderson Ruin and Preservation were a specific instance, because almost all their energy was thrown into resisting each other. Keep that in mind. Even after Preservation was only a shadow, basically all of it was "Let's keep Ruin from destroying the world." So they were polar opposites. Set in balance. But slightly unbalanced in a couple of ways, that eventually, that slight imbalance... They are a special case, because of that. Zas So then why are they hesitant to directly fuel Allomancy? Brandon Sanderson Why are they hesitant to? What do you mean by directly fuel Allomancy? Zas You mention in the Hero of Ages Q&A that they can directly fuel Allomancy, like Vin does with Elend, but it requires expending their energy in a way they are hesitant to do. Brandon Sanderson Because it imbalances them more. Does that make sense? Like, if you are putting your energy here, rather than fighting the other force, you give them an edge somewhere else by trying to gain an edge here. And you have to make sure that's really worth it. Imagine a chess game. Is it worth sacrificing my pawn here to expose myself over here? Orem signing (Sept. 22, 2012) 7 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: The amateur Vin could sense the humans that are within the storage caverns. The amateur Sazed could sense the inhabitants within the metal-covered Trustwarren and storage caverns, protect them and move them around. There is a significant difference in what Ruin can do to people and what Preservation - Ruin is shouting to them, Preservation is listening to them, that's why Preservation could hear and see them all, while Ruin's as more invasive couldn't. But they were both blinded by metal around the caves. Spoiler kilomtrs So in the trilogy, we see that when someone has a Hemalurgic spike implanted in them, they can hear Ruin talking to them, both as a vision and in their head. However, we learn in the Hero of Ages that Ruin cannot hear a person's thoughts no matter how much under Ruin's influence they are. [editing out era 2 spoilers] Brandon Sanderson How this all works dates back to the original design of the magic system. I wanted Ruin and Preservation to be complementary opposites, like many things in the Mistborn world. Allomancy, for example, has Pushes and Pulls were are less "negate one another" opposites, but instead two sides to the same proverbial coin. Ruin is invasive. The power is more "Yell" than "Listen." The philosopher would probably have some interesting things to say about the masculine symbolism of Hemalurgy and its spikes. Ruin can insert thoughts. That power, however, can't HEAR the reactions. It's about invasion. Preservation, however, is the opposite. Preservation listens, Preservation protects. (Perhaps to a fault--if there were no Ruin, there would be no change to the world, and life could not exist.) Because of this, Preservation can hear what is inside people's minds. It cannot, however, INSERT thoughts. (This is important to the plot of Hero of Ages.) Harmony is both, the two complementary opposites combined. And so, he inserts thoughts with Ruin and still uses Hemalurgy. He can also listen. [...] General Reddit 2012 (July 4, 2012) 7 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: But it sounds… off that Ruin couldn’t sense his atium, or at least not be aware of the Kandra Homeland. He was aware of them, he just didn't find them important and useful. He had Koloss, the army slaughtering everyone, Inquisitors, his servants spiking people who later caused even more chaos and destruction, suffering while doing so - he simply didn't need Kandra, they couldn't do anything more he was already doing. That's why he didn't bother with them, he preferred spikes. 7 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: Also, I don’t 100% like that Ruin’s personality is mainly a representation of death and entropy. I understand he’s supposed to be a force of change, so I wish his actions _showed_ a side focused on change. He's not just about change, he's fully about Ruin - increasing entropy - that's at least Ati's interpretation, which matters. But Ruin isn't about simple change, but change leading to destruction (increase of entropy). There is another Shard which is about change. Spoiler Questioner Do you believe that Preservation is inherently good and that Ruin is inherently evil? Brandon Sanderson No, good question! I would say no. I don't think any of the Shards are inherently good or inherently evil. I think that Ruin can be (and was for many years) in the cosmere presented as the necessary force of progress, right? Things need to decay in order for life to exist. And I think entropy is just a necessary aspect of life. And Ruin doesn't have to be evil; but Ruin is hard to control. And Odium is even harder to control. And because of that, there is a higher likelihood that Ruin or Odium are going to, if left unchecked, be very dangeorus. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021) Spoiler Autarchk If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now? Brandon Sanderson They were two shards. Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it. Nepene [editing out SA spoilers] Brandon Sanderson Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are [...] General Reddit 2013 (March 14, 2013) Spoiler Alvaro Lopez Why Odium is stronger and worst evil than Ruin? Brandon Sanderson One reason is that Ruin had a person in control of it who, for many years, fought against the impulse to destroy--and in the end, channeled it toward entropy and decay, necessary elements of the universe. Odium represents something else entirely. General Twitter 2018 (June 6, 2018) 7 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: We know he guided Kelsier towards crafting his rebellion No he didn't. Kelsier wasn't spiked and he wasn't guided by Ruin with his rebellion. It was all Kelsier as at that time Ruin was still imprisoned and his reach was severely limited to few spiked individuals. Spoiler L0lbert My question is however, is Kelsier influenced by Ruin in some way? Does he have any metal in him? The parts that got me thinking is how he is the one who suggested to Vin that she should keep her earrings in. Futhermore he has a strong urge to kill and destroy, though that is mainly limited to nobility and it is meant to help overthrow the empire. Lasltly there was someone in the last book (I'm afraid I can't remember who right now) who said that Lord Penrod (who at the time was contolled by Ruin) used housewars to destroy the city, which is the exact thing Kelsier did also. I'm sorry if my answer has an obvious answer, or if I've overlooked something, but these points got me to strongly belive that Kelsier was influenced by Ruin. Brandon Sanderson No metal in Kelsier, though good question. However, he was trained by a man touched by Ruin, and has a certain natural inclination toward destruction and killing. That's all him. I've said before that Kelsier, in another story or time, might have become something far more terrible. That's what makes him interesting to me as a character. /r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 28, 2015) 7 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: So Ruin could’ve taught them how to make advancements in technology. He couldn't do it, he was imprisoned in the Well, he barely was able to reach and whisper into spiked and crazy people, he couldn't do anything like that. 7 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: I don’t think Ruin is truly malicious, but his gloating(ugh) comes across that way. None of Shards is evil. But Shards are composed of a power with Intent and a Vessel, the mind controlling the power. Over time a Vessel will be overcomed by power's intent and will be fully about what it's intent is about, with slight influence of Vessel's perception. Like Ruin - its Vessel, Ati, was fully focused on destruction because at this time his mind is overcomed by Ruin's intent. 7 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: And according to folks over here, Ruin is one of the worst Shards at seeing the future. I have a big problem with that. Ruin is supposed to hasten and represent the inevitabilities of death and entropy and change. Preservation only wants to keep the universe the same. Even if Ruin is worse at precognition there shouldn’t be a big gap. That's something we still don't know about too much. But Ruin did changed Terris prophecies but missed their hidden message Spoiler JamesW You said that Preservation created the Terris Prophecies. Why couldn't Ruin see into the future and counter Preservation's plan? Is it because Ruin's intent has him focusing more on the present than the future, while Preservation (wanting to preserve forever) looks more into the future for that goal. Brandon Sanderson Looking into the future was not something Ruin was good at doing. That ability is confined to certain shards, and not others. 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 28, 2012) Spoiler defiantburrito The Hero of Ages prophecy: For a while it seemed to me that the prophecy was entirely bogus (invented by Ruin as a lure), but it ended up coming true! So my question is, where did the prophecy actually come from? Was it Atium in some form, or something else entirely? Brandon Sanderson The religions of Scadrial had a lot of ups and downs. First, you have Ruin and Preservation working together as two gods. Then you have the schism between them, and Preservation betraying Ruin, with Preservation adapting the religion to his own needs and trying to hide in it practices that will keep Ruin imprisoned as long as possible, and then give a chance to defeat him when he escapes. (As Preservation assumes he'll be dead by then.) Finally, you have Ruin corrupting the religions with his influence, trying to figure out what he can twist to his own needs--while missing the hidden layers that Preservation left. Phantine Were there a lot of Hero of Ages who ascended beyond the ones we directly saw in the books? Brandon Sanderson I wouldn't say so. /r/books AMA 2015 (July 6, 2015) Edited June 30, 2023 by alder24 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted July 1, 2023 Report Share Posted July 1, 2023 11 hours ago, ftl said: I think even after being released, he was held back by Preservation. Yes, Preservation was weaker, but he at least could prevent Ruin from, like, just destroying the world with a snap of his fingers; Ruin was able to intensify processes that were already there (power up the volcanoes and the mists), which would have been enough after about a year or two, but couldn't just be like "and now the oceans boil". This is correct. Ruin needed to find and absorb the atium to super-quickly destroy the world. What we see in HoA is what he could do with the power he could get past (the remnants of) Preservation. HoA epigraph ch. 47 Quote Releasing the power at the Well tipped the aforementioned balance back toward Ruin, but he was still too weak to destroy the world in the blink of an eye as he yearned to do. This weakness was caused by part of Ruin's power—his very body—having been taken and hidden from him. HoA epigraph ch 48 Quote Once "freed," Ruin was able to affect the world more directly. The most obvious way he did this was by making the ashmounts emit more ash and the earth begin to break apart. As a matter of fact, I believe that much of Ruin's energy during those last days was dedicated to these tasks. 17 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: The Crescent and Remote Dominances, and the Southern islands, seems to have been outside of Empire control. So Ruin could’ve taught them how to make advancements in technology. They weren't that outside of control. Even the actual bandits/rebels out in the burnlands, while they were not directly governed by TLR, got crushed whenever they became a problem. That's where Human the koloss came from (he was a bandit leader successful enough to draw real attention). They did have some things a bit more advanced than the FE mainstream, but not enough to make a difference. Inventing a few crude guns wouldn't make a difference against a huge koloss army led by Inquisitors, and then the knowledge would be suppressed again. That's what TLR did the first time around. 17 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: I don’t think Ruin is truly malicious, but his gloating(ugh) comes across that way. Theres a difference between Ruin the Shard itself, the power, which is not inherently evil - it's essentially entropy - and Ruin the person that we see in HoA. I think the imprisonment has warped him, not just the pressure of the Shard itself. Scadrial's destruction is "overdue" to him, and he's gloating because he's finally overcome Preservation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ale the Metallic Conjurer Posted July 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 How do I quote sections of a reply? If I try to highlight and click “quote this” nothing happens. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 14 minutes ago, AllomanticChainDude said: How do I quote sections of a reply? If I try to highlight and click “quote this” nothing happens. Just press the quote button at the top, and copy paste what you want to quote into it. The quote system here isn't the absolute best. But I agree with what everyone else is saying, I feel you are misunderstanding a lot of things about it, and your confusions and issues are mainly rising from that. @Treamayne gave a good overview on everything. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, AllomanticChainDude said: How do I quote sections of a reply? If I try to highlight and click “quote this” nothing happens. This may help: Spoiler At the bottom left of a post you will see a "+" icon, a "Quote" link, and (your posts only) and Edit and Options tools. On the bottom right you will see an up arrow. The Up Arrow is how you thank people or "like" a post The "Quote" link is exactly that, when you click it the quote will be added to the reply at the bottom of the thread wherever the cursor is So, if you have already started to reply before you decide to quote you can then add the quote before or after your text depending on the cursor location when you click "Quote" The + icon is multi-quote. As you read a thread, if you want to quote multiple items you click that for each post As you click +, you should see a toaster pop-up on the bottom right of the browser window showing how many quotes you will have They are added in the order you click the + icon, not in the original post order, so you can set the order of quotes for your reply When you are ready to reply, click on the toaster pop-up and it will take you directly to the reply section and add the quotes automatically Finally, you can also highlight a small section of a post and, when hovering over the highlit portion, click the "Quote" button that pops up. Also note that you can move quotes after they have been added to your reply. For example, you add a quote and realize there are no empty lines below it for you to type - so you can hit "enter" before the quote to make an empty line then when you hover over a quote you will see a 4-way arrow at the top-left that you can use to drag the quote up (or down) and move the quote to before the empty line. . . Use the Edit link to make changes to a completed post or add information to your post if it is the most recent (to avoid double posting) Quote buttons will still send a quote to "Reply" if you have a post open for edit, but it is easy to cut/paste the quote to the Edit box Editing the first post in a thread allows the thread-creator to edit the thread title. Editing allows you to add a reason for the edit (Spelling and grammar (SPAG), formatting, clarification, new information, etc.), but it is not required. Next to Edit you will also find an "options" dropbox, you can use this to hide your post if you want to remove it after posting At the top of a post you will find "Report Post" Use this if you do accidentally double-post (sometimes it's the browser or a slow link that causes a double post) - just leave a message that it was an accidental double post and the Mods can fix it. If it was the first post of a new thread that doubled, they usually can merge the threads if they both have answers, so all of the content is retained. Hope that helps. I also sometimes cheat, where I will quote a whole paragraph - cut that quote, then paste it more than once and remove sentances from each instance to break it down into smaller chunks. For example: Spoiler Initial Quote: On 6/30/2023 at 1:50 PM, alder24 said: He couldn't control anybody while he was imprisoned in the Well. Only when the Well was close to being filled (less than a year) he slowly was able to reach out and whisper to some few individuals. But nothing more. His release enabled him to take full control over hemalurgic constructs. But just like he didn't force his control over all Koloss all the time (which allowed Vin and Elend to control a small army of them and believe everything is fine), he didn't enforce his control over Kandra - he didn't need them, and wasn't sure what was their role in overall plan. He just didn't consider them worthy of his time, they were pacifists hiding in their hole all the time. Only when he realized what their purpose was, did he take action. There is also another thing - he isn't omnipresent - his mind, the Vessel, can't be at all places at once. He can focus on one place (and that was always where Vin was) and pay little attention to many others (which was useful still, as he could order inquisitors, whisper to Penrod or Spook etc). That's why he didn't bother with them - he never focused his full mind on them until one of them left with a bag of Atium. For me it makes perfect sense why he didn't bother with them - they aren't fighters, they are spies, and there is nothing they could do that wasn't already being done by inquisitors or spiked people (like Penrod). He didn't need them. Second, third and fourth paste (removing sections to break it up): On 6/30/2023 at 1:50 PM, alder24 said: He couldn't control anybody while he was imprisoned in the Well. Only when the Well was close to being filled (less than a year) he slowly was able to reach out and whisper to some few individuals. But nothing more. His release enabled him to take full control over hemalurgic constructs. On 6/30/2023 at 1:50 PM, alder24 said: Only when he realized what their purpose was, did he take action. There is also another thing - he isn't omnipresent - his mind, the Vessel, can't be at all places at once. He can focus on one place (and that was always where Vin was) and pay little attention to many others (which was useful still, as he could order inquisitors, whisper to Penrod or Spook etc). That's why he didn't bother with them - he never focused his full mind on them until one of them left with a bag of Atium. On 6/30/2023 at 1:50 PM, alder24 said: For me it makes perfect sense why he didn't bother with them - they aren't fighters, they are spies, and there is nothing they could do that wasn't already being done by inquisitors or spiked people (like Penrod). He didn't need them. Edited July 10, 2023 by Treamayne Examples 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 (edited) Anyway, gonna have to be dropping from this conversation for now. I have a very unhealthy relationship with Cosmere that makes me irrationally upset at even small criticisms (I am not fuming or anything, I just find even irritation at this irrational. So please don't think I am irate.). It is a problem I have, and I don't want to become disrespectful at all. I have nothing against ya, just have issues and (sometimes) know when to step out before I do anything I regret. Hope to see ya again later. Just, look at what Treamayne is explaining about what all was going on, they are giving a really good overview and explanation. Bye. Edited July 10, 2023 by Firesong 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ale the Metallic Conjurer Posted July 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 On 6/30/2023 at 7:34 AM, Treamayne said: Welcome to the forums. Before we cover possible spoilers, can you tell us have you read any Mistborn other than the first Trilogy (Such as Era 2 and especially Mistborn Secret History <spoilers for Era 2, Bands of Mourning and Lost Metal>). How about other works in the Cosmere, have you read any of them? I'll try to limit possible spoilers until we know for sure. I've read The Eleventh Metal. I always forget to mention that one lmao. For other Cosmere works I've read up to Part 1 of Elantris. On 6/30/2023 at 7:34 AM, Treamayne said: This deals with the fact that Preservation and Ruin were opposites in this as well (covered more in-depth in Secret History) - Vessels holding Preservation can receive thoughts and impressions from mortals, but not send information (displayed in the "mist spirit's" inability to talk or send thougths to Vin or Elend) - but Ruin can only send thoughts (not hear thoughts). Vin had preservation, and could hear (but not "speak" to Elend*) - and Sazed picked up both (and could both send and receive). Some thought did get through to ELend, but only because they shared another Connection beside's her Shardic nature - also explained more in Secret History. Good thing you caught that lmao. I was going to mention the Elend thing before you edited it. But even outside of that I don't think the two gods' telepathy is this cut and dry. According to TenSoon in Chapter 62, Rashek spoke directly to the minds of his Feruchemist friends during the Ascension. This breaks the "rules" of telepathy just like Vin speaking to Elend's mind. It's worth nothing that Ruin was actively blocking the majority of Vin's mental communication. It was also revealed by Sazed in the epilogue's epigraph that Preservation got Vin to stop wearing the earring when she was a child. In the chapter 75 epigraph, Sazed likewise reveals that Ruin didn't just use Hemalurgic spikes to send illusions, speak to minds, or control people. He also used them to warp thoughts and make them overlook oddities, such as Vin being compelled to keep and wear her earring. This means that Preservation can accomplish the same feat by "feeding" the Mists to people. On 6/30/2023 at 7:34 AM, Treamayne said: It's because of this that his ability to "see" well is limited. He's blinded by events that lead to decay without seeing the possibilities that don't go down that path. So... the equivalent for Preservation is seeing events that lead to the status quo being maintained? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 6 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: So... the equivalent for Preservation is seeing events that lead to the status quo being maintained? That's one theory, yes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ale the Metallic Conjurer Posted July 11, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2023 (edited) On 6/30/2023 at 0:01 PM, ftl said: Well, he could only actually control them after he was released at the end of Well of Ascension. Before that he could send them vague messages and hints, like he did with everybody else spiked, but... his attention is limited and he didn't see anything important to do with them. They don't kill, they don't really even plot, they're basically glorified servants... I don't think it's this cut and dry. IIRC, the Steel Inquisitors were controlled by Ruin before his release. if not complete control, he was heavily influencing their emotions and thoughts. Many Inquisitors attacked Terris. Marsh was prodding Sazed to copy Kwaan's tablet, and went as far as to attack him during WoA's conclusion. Sazed mentions that sending the Inquisitors to the Well of Ascension was within Ruin's power. He even said it was indeed possible for Ruin to control people before his imprisonment, but it could only be a few people. On 6/30/2023 at 0:01 PM, ftl said: I think even after being released, he was held back by Preservation. Yes, Preservation was weaker, but he at least could prevent Ruin from, like, just destroying the world with a snap of his fingers; Ruin was able to intensify processes that were already there (power up the volcanoes and the mists), which would have been enough after about a year or two, but couldn't just be like "and now the oceans boil". This is true, at least in terms of passive balance between the gods. However, it was always stated that Ruin's mind was stronger than Ascended Rashek. Ascended Rashek was able to move Scadrial millions of kilometers across space, rewrite biology multiple times, move the planet's crust and change the mountains etc... Terrifyingly enough, mathematically speaking, moving a planet like Scadrial carries enough energy to destroy Earth more than 11 times. Ruin's mind was roughly equal to Preservation Vin, who was stronger than Ascended Rashek and could erase all the ash from the atmosphere, rotate Scadrial halfway around its axis in less than a second, and fuel Elend's Allomancy. Preservation in his weakest form could control the wind, seen when he was interacting with Sazed in WoA. Ruin was personally half-responsible for creating Scadrial. Considering how much Brandon seems to love incorporating science into the Ascension, Ruin would've half-handcrafted its functions down the scientific detail. Ruin's mind should've been fully capable of accelerating the winds into hurricanes, darkening the skies to create thunderstorms, or lighting up the skies to induce perpetual winter. The guy caused earthquakes in The Hero of Ages but they barely made an impact. Heck, at this rate he should be able to make the oceans boil. On 6/30/2023 at 0:01 PM, ftl said: The Lord Ruler's misdirection was successful in a few ways. First, the Kandra Homeland was at the pits of hathsin - a place where there's already a lot of atium and a lot of metal. Sure, Ruin could sense "hey there's a lot of metal here". But it didn't look much different than any other metal-rich region. And even if he sensed "hey, there's atium somewhere here" - well, YEAH there is, this is where the Atium comes from! So Ruin spent his time trying to track down where the Atium WENT from there. And was unsuccessful at it. TLR took the "atium" in hidden boxes into other places hidden from Ruin, made it get lost in a maze of transfers. It's not that the Kandra homeland was entirely hidden from Ruin, he probably knew it was there, he just didn't figure out its significance; that all that Atium he was chasing never left the pits in the first place. After he was released, he could have taken more direct routes to investigate the atium-smuggling, that might work better than just spying out the keyhole of his prison... ...but by that point, the atium-smuggling operation was done, died with The Lord Ruler and with the destruction of the Pits of Hathsin. There was just a pit of Atium hidden somewhere, lost among the metal deposits in the area anyway. And Ruin was still looking in the wrong place - led off on a wild goose chase by trying to track down the caverns and break into them. Yeah, I have nothing negative to say about this. It was part of Preservation's plans so it checks out. On 6/30/2023 at 0:01 PM, ftl said: Huh, good point. Maybe he was behind other rebellions too. Not because they'd release him, but just because he wanted more destruction. Eh... that doesn't seem like it would be within his Intent. He's Ruin, advances in technology don't necessarily seem very ruinous (though some could be.) But I think The Lord Ruler did keep a close enough eye on those dominances so they couldn't, like, develop guns and conquer his final empire away from him Remember that the point of Ruin masterminding Kelsier's rebellion was to kill the Lord Ruler. If he were behind other rebellions it does not need to be for destruction, at least not the obvious type. It could be for the sake of destabilizing the Final Empire, which while it qualifies as destruction is a more subtle form. Plus it would benefit his grander goal of killing the Lord Ruler. I'm very surprised to hear this, considering how important technology is in conflict. Conflict and war breeds death, destruction, and entropy. Advancing technology, which in turn advances conflict, is well within his Intent. Technology does not need to invented for the sake of benefiting humanity on a widespread scale. And with his release, Ruin could just destroy the technology without a sweat, or influence people to use it against figures like Elend or Yomen. These are methods that keep Ruin as a subtle mastermind, while being consistent with his Intent. Hell, the greatest servant of Preservation commits horrific actions on a daily basis. That's still well within Preservation's Intent. You see people commit horrible actions of Preservation in real life, even if murder is part of them. Preservation the god does this. His plan (or one of them) required killing the Lord Ruler. The part of the plan that involved the Lord Ruler's era took place in stability made possible through death and control. Allomancy Snaps based on mental trauma, and the Deepness is Snapping on overdrive by making people sick. On 6/30/2023 at 0:01 PM, ftl said: Yeah, I don't think he's a being of change, regardless of what he says. He's a being of destruction and decay. His personality is long since warped by, well, being Ruin. He is pretty malicious, even if he wasn't always such. If we're talking constructive change, you're right, But he seems to be a specific type of change. On 6/30/2023 at 1:50 PM, alder24 said: He couldn't control anybody while he was imprisoned in the Well. Only when the Well was close to being filled (less than a year) he slowly was able to reach out and whisper to some few individuals. But nothing more. His release enabled him to take full control over hemalurgic constructs. But just like he didn't force his control over all Koloss all the time (which allowed Vin and Elend to control a small army of them and believe everything is fine), he didn't enforce his control over Kandra - he didn't need them, and wasn't sure what was their role in overall plan. He just didn't consider them worthy of his time, they were pacifists hiding in their hole all the time. Only when he realized what their purpose was, did he take action. There is also another thing - he isn't omnipresent - his mind, the Vessel, can't be at all places at once. He can focus on one place (and that was always where Vin was) and pay little attention to many others (which was useful still, as he could order inquisitors, whisper to Penrod or Spook etc). That's why he didn't bother with them - he never focused his full mind on them until one of them left with a bag of Atium. For me it makes perfect sense why he didn't bother with them - they aren't fighters, they are spies, and there is nothing they could do that wasn't already being done by inquisitors or spiked people (like Penrod). He didn't need them. He was controlling Steel Inquisitors before his release, or at least heavily influencing their thoughts and emotions. The Inquisitors and koloss seem to have been bloodlusted because of Ruin's mental influence during all those centuries. He was whispering to TLR, Zane, Gemmel, Shezler, and Vin's mother long before the Well was close to being filled. Furthermore there is no indication, at least in HoA, that Ruin's illusion manipulations are taking place in completely different timeframes. So we can't assume that he can't affect many people at once. It sounds like a matter of desire rather than ability. Furthermore, controlling koloss was again, a matter of desire. Vin says it best. He was driving our heroes into a corner to motivate them to find the storage caches. Once the time was right in his perspective, Ruin took control of hundreds of thousands of koloss, while simultaneously having control over his Inquisitors. And another note, I believe Ruin had other manipulations in Vin's era that we don't know about. I like to think he had more of a hand in TFE and WoA than we know. On 6/30/2023 at 1:50 PM, alder24 said: The problem with this is that he couldn't. Almost every bit of his power was thrown at opposing Preservation and almost every bit of Preservation was thrown at opposing Ruin. He couldn't accelerate the end more, because he was bound by Preservation. That's why he couldn't create more, that's why Vin's actions as Preservation were so important, because at first Ruin allowed her to act, and then threw his power to oppose her and force her to watch destruction made by her. He couldn't do anything more without regaining Atium. Rashek used a tiny piece of Preservation to massively "invade" the territory of the Well's overseeing God and the other God who's essence permeates the planet, both of which passively counter each other. Rashek knew that he couldn't defeat Ruin's mind or permanently keep him trapped. I don't think Ruin and Preservation's counterbalance is so detrimental that Ruin can't cause more natural disasters. On 6/30/2023 at 1:50 PM, alder24 said: He's not just about change, he's fully about Ruin - increasing entropy - that's at least Ati's interpretation, which matters. But Ruin isn't about simple change, but change leading to destruction (increase of entropy). There is another Shard which is about change. Fair enough. But isn't it possible that Ruin sees death as a necessity for change or life. Like a flower needing to die because that's the natural order of things, or possibly so that other flowers can grow in its place. On 6/30/2023 at 1:50 PM, alder24 said: No he didn't. Kelsier wasn't spiked and he wasn't guided by Ruin with his rebellion. It was all Kelsier as at that time Ruin was still imprisoned and his reach was severely limited to few spiked individuals. Sorry if this sounds rude, but this is wrong. Sazed confirms that Ruin fabricated all the stories, legends and prophecies that Kelsier encounter about the Eleventh Metal, which is an alloy of Ruin's atium. Two centuries earlier, TLR built a storage cache that contained malatium and explained it, implying that Ruin had this scheme in motion even back then. In "The Eleventh Metal," the Mists stay away from Gemmel and he says he hears a voice. Shezler, the scholar who conducted research on the Eleventh Metal, was noted to not be completely sane. They're all pawns of Ruin and he's able to speak to unstable people. On 6/30/2023 at 1:50 PM, alder24 said: He couldn't do it, he was imprisoned in the Well, he barely was able to reach and whisper into spiked and crazy people, he couldn't do anything like that. By whispering to unstable people he can get them to spike themselves or others. He can fabricate text and rewrite it. He made malatium appear to be a legitimate metal over the course of centuries, with no Keeper catching wind. He rewrote the Terris Prophecies to the point no Keeper caught wind, except for Kwaan who was most likely a key pawn of Preservation just like Rashek. Advancing technology in the remote corners of the Empire might take longer, but it should be doable. And I would be shocked if there weren't a bunch of passionate nutcases over there. Edited July 11, 2023 by AllomanticChainDude 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted July 11, 2023 Report Share Posted July 11, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, AllomanticChainDude said: I don't think it's this cut and dry. <Lots of Stuff> And I would be shocked if there weren't a bunch of passionate nutcases over there. Have you read Mistborn: Secret History? Notes: Ruin doesn't control the bloodlust in Hemalurgic Constructs - Hemalurgy has the side effect of causing bloodlust as a natural part of its Investiture While this seems like a sementic detail, the important point is that Ruin's investiture is amplifying the bloodlust because that's part of what Hemalurgy does - but extreme emotions also weaken Ruin's control so Ati (Ruin's vessel) doesn't always desire the bloodlust created by this effect - as seen when he loses control of Marsh while he is slaughtering poor Goradel. It takes several minutes for him to re-establish control and get Marsh to read the letter. Ruin is influencing people from the Well, but not controlling them. Covered in much more depth in Secret History. We even see much of his technique through the Trilogy, in how he uses Reen's voice to manipulate Vin. Also note, you can tell when his promptings are pseudo-automatic (happening by default of Intent) and when the manipulation has his attention (and therefore is more tailored to the situation and the recipient). Vin even lampshades this in HoA Ch 54 when she notes his default message "kill him/them" is a way for her to know the guards are near when she can't see them yet. Ruin didn't fabricate the Eleventh Metal or cause TLR to write about it in the storage caches. Malatium was a natural alloy of the changed Atium that was discovered like most Allomantic Alloys. Ruin fabricated the myth that Malatium would help defeat TLR (using the existing metal as the basis for the myth to lead Kelsier (or Vin as it happened) to discover TLRs secret of Compounding, and therefore his weakness). Ruin was causing many "natural disasters" (shown in TFE when he causes the Ashmount to erupt after Marsh acquired the Spike). Secret history has more on this. We don't see much of the effects of the Natural Disasters in HoA because the action takes place on a stable landmass (with all those metal deposits used for the caches) and far from the coast (and the storms and tsunamis created by off-shore earthquakes where the continental plates are more conducive to tectonic manipulation) Also, Ruin wanted to threaten the "heroes" with the natural disaster as part of his manipulation - he didn't want to actually use mass destruction in the Central Dominance until the Atium Cache was found. So, yes he was holding back - on purpose. I value your opinion and I hope it doesn't seem like I want to change that - I'm just hoping to explain some things I think you might be misunderstanding. Yes, Ruin could have been more overtly destructive - even when partially shackled and missing some of his power. Part of the reason he was not is explained in Secret History - and part of it was self-limitation because he was trying to Paranoia Gambit his way to finding the cache - just threatening enough to scare the heroes into a mistake - but not so destructive to risk destroying that for which he searches. Edited July 11, 2023 by Treamayne SPAG 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted July 11, 2023 Report Share Posted July 11, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: I don't think it's this cut and dry. IIRC, the Steel Inquisitors were controlled by Ruin before his release. if not complete control, he was heavily influencing their emotions and thoughts. 2 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: He was controlling Steel Inquisitors before his release, or at least heavily influencing their thoughts and emotions. The Inquisitors and koloss seem to have been bloodlusted because of Ruin's mental influence during all those centuries. He was whispering to TLR, Zane, Gemmel, Shezler, and Vin's mother long before the Well was close to being filled. Furthermore there is no indication, at least in HoA, that Ruin's illusion manipulations are taking place in completely different timeframes. So we can't assume that he can't affect many people at once. It sounds like a matter of desire rather than ability. Furthermore, controlling koloss was again, a matter of desire. Vin says it best. He was driving our heroes into a corner to motivate them to find the storage caches. Once the time was right in his perspective, Ruin took control of hundreds of thousands of koloss, while simultaneously having control over his Inquisitors. And another note, I believe Ruin had other manipulations in Vin's era that we don't know about. I like to think he had more of a hand in TFE and WoA than we know. They weren't controlled. Only within the year before his release he was able to whisper to them, push and pull on their emotions - that was so effective because they had so many spikes. He still wasn't able to fully control them (as Marsh was resisting his attempts to crush Sazed right outside of the Well).With someone with far less spikes, like Vin or Zane, he was only able to whisper a few words to them, not much more. The Well firmly limited his reach and influence. The bloodlust was the inherent property of those two hemalurgic constructs (possibly related to the nature of Hemalurgy and large amounts of spikes). But Koloss bloodlust was actually designed by the Lord Ruler, as he wanted them to kill themselves if he were to die or lose control over them, to prevent Ruin from accessing those Koloss or rampage over the Final Empire. Koloss weren't directly influenced or controlled by Ruin before his release. The only thing Ruin was able to do when imprisoned was to whisper to spiked and mad individuals, push/pull slightly on their emotions, and change the written text and memories stored in Copperminds. Not much more. The stronger the impulses from the Well got, the more he could do, as he was sending his power on those impulses - explained in SH a bit. And the strongest impulses were just in the year before his release, only then Vin was able to always hear the Well (she did it in TFE but she had to focus a lot to hear them). As the Well was fully filled, every Seeker or Mistborn was able to hear them, and thus Ruin would be able to do much more than previously, like force some level of control over Inquisitors, but not earlier. Also said in SH, Ruin couldn't control inquisitors, only talk to them (and push and pull on their emotions) - he was very limited in his actions. Controlling hundreds of thousands of koloss after his release isn't a problem - once you force your control over them, they're yours. But forcing that control is problematic - Vin was able to force her control over thousands of Koloss at once, Elend over tens of thousands, but once the control is established, the number doesn't matter. But Ruin controlled Koloss after his release, so this all doesn't matter, as he is a Shard, vastly more powerful than any Mistborn, it's like comparing a drop of water to the ocean. There is much more about Ruin, his limitations and his nature in SH. HoA epigraphs ch 40: Quote However, each spike also distorts the koloss body a little more, making it increasingly inhuman. Such is the cost of Hemalurgy. ch 42: Quote I think that the koloss were more intelligent than we wanted to give them credit for being. For instance, originally, they used only spikes the Lord Ruler gave them to make new members. He would provide the metal and the unfortunate skaa captives, and the koloss would create new "recruits." At the Lord Ruler's death, then, the koloss should quickly have died out. This was how he had designed them. If they got free from his control, he expected them to kill themselves off and end their own rampage. However, they somehow made the deduction that spikes in the bodies of fallen koloss could be harvested, then reused. They then no longer required a fresh supply of spikes. I often wonder what effect the constant reuse of spikes had on their population. A spike can only hold so much of a Hemalurgic charge, so they could not create spikes that granted infinite strength, no matter how many people those spikes killed and drew power from. However, did the repeated reuse of spikes perhaps bring more humanity to the koloss they made? 2 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: This is true, at least in terms of passive balance between the gods. However, it was always stated that Ruin's mind was stronger than Ascended Rashek. Ascended Rashek was able to move Scadrial millions of kilometers across space, rewrite biology multiple times, move the planet's crust and change the mountains etc... Terrifyingly enough, mathematically speaking, moving a planet like Scadrial carries enough energy to destroy Earth more than 11 times. Ruin's mind was roughly equal to Preservation Vin, who was stronger than Ascended Rashek and could erase all the ash from the atmosphere, rotate Scadrial halfway around its axis in less than a second, and fuel Elend's Allomancy. Preservation in his weakest form could control the wind, seen when he was interacting with Sazed in WoA. Ruin was personally half-responsible for creating Scadrial. Considering how much Brandon seems to love incorporating science into the Ascension, Ruin would've half-handcrafted its functions down the scientific detail. Ruin's mind should've been fully capable of accelerating the winds into hurricanes, darkening the skies to create thunderstorms, or lighting up the skies to induce perpetual winter. The guy caused earthquakes in The Hero of Ages but they barely made an impact. Heck, at this rate he should be able to make the oceans boil. I think that's because the power left in the Well was Preservation's mind itself, not opposed by Ruin's power at all, or more likely allowed by Ruin as he saw every action Rashek took aided in Ruin's ultimate goal of destruction of Scadrial. If the former is true, then Ruin couldn't do the same without sacrificing his own mind, and practically killing himself, if the latter then Ruin also couldn't do anything more as Preservation's power would oppose those drastic actions. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Chapter Fifty-Five Elend Sees the Mist Spirit Elend really does have a lot of faith in Vin, even if he doesn't worship her. He ascribes an almost supernatural power to her. And, I can kind of see why he would. In these books, Vin's almost less of a character and more a force. Like Ruin and Preservation, in a way. Regardless, this chapter is about Elend giving up—then finding his hope again. I bring the mist spirit back here for a final appearance, but I wanted to be careful not to have it give too much information to Elend. Not because I don't want the information itself to get out, but because the mist spirit hasn't been a presence in this book, and so I haven't foreshadowed it enough. Therefore, if it simply showed up and gave a bunch of answers, I think that would feel cheap to the reader. The mist spirit is, as the next epigraph explains, the remnants of Preservation's mind. I don't delve into it too much in this book, even the epigraphs, but Preservation's consciousness is indeed separate from his power. However, his consciousness itself has a limited power. And that is what he used to bind Ruin. That did not weaken his power, which still protects the world. Instead, it cost him his mind, leaving behind only a faint shadow—like the mists' memory of Preservation, far removed from what he had once been. That consciousness attached to Preservation—like the one attached to Ruin—is a part of Adonalsium, which will eventually be explained. Suffice it to say that in a pinch, Preservation could draw upon the power of his own mind and use it to imprison Ruin. This was why he was able to pull of the trick, as Ruin wasn't expecting it. He might have anticipated an attack using Preservation's power, but not his mind—not knowing what burning his own mind would do. That is why Preservation's cage captured Ruin's own mind, but not his power. The Hero of Ages Annotations (Jan. 19, 2010) 2 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: Rashek used a tiny piece of Preservation to massively "invade" the territory of the Well's overseeing God and the other God who's essence permeates the planet, both of which passively counter each other. Rashek knew that he couldn't defeat Ruin's mind or permanently keep him trapped. I don't think Ruin and Preservation's counterbalance is so detrimental that Ruin can't cause more natural disasters. I don't understand your point here. Firstly Rashek thought he would be able to keep Ruin imprisoned forever, but feared he would get killed by Ruin's plot - that's why he created caves and all that Atium plan. If you referring to the previous "Rashek's use of the Well wasn't opposed by Ruin" I answered to it above. This is said in HoA epigraphs ch 48: Quote Once "freed," Ruin was able to affect the world more directly. The most obvious way he did this was by making the ashmounts emit more ash and the earth begin to break apart. As a matter of fact, I believe that much of Ruin's energy during those last days was dedicated to these tasks. He was also able to affect and control far more people than before. Where he had once influenced only a few select individuals, he could now direct entire koloss armies. Ruin literally couldn't do anything more because the balance of powers was preventing him from doing so. He used most of his energy that he could slip below Preservation's power to accelerate natural disasters and wasn't able to do much more than that. 2 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: Sorry if this sounds rude, but this is wrong. Sazed confirms that Ruin fabricated all the stories, legends and prophecies that Kelsier encounter about the Eleventh Metal, which is an alloy of Ruin's atium. Two centuries earlier, TLR built a storage cache that contained malatium and explained it, implying that Ruin had this scheme in motion even back then. In "The Eleventh Metal," the Mists stay away from Gemmel and he says he hears a voice. Shezler, the scholar who conducted research on the Eleventh Metal, was noted to not be completely sane. They're all pawns of Ruin and he's able to speak to unstable people. I didn't refer to this, I only talked about Ruin's direct control or his whispers or influencing Kelsier's emotions. Stories and legends about 11th metal were fabricated, and Ruin was influencing Gemmel (because he was crazy) but not Kelsier directly. Once Kelsier left Gemmel, he was freed from Ruin's influence, and all he did was only because of him, not Ruin. So Kelsier wasn't guided by Ruin, was only aided at the beginning - his idea to kill the Lord Ruler was all his, not given to him by Ruin. 2 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said: By whispering to unstable people he can get them to spike themselves or others. He can fabricate text and rewrite it. He made malatium appear to be a legitimate metal over the course of centuries, with no Keeper catching wind. He rewrote the Terris Prophecies to the point no Keeper caught wind, except for Kwaan who was most likely a key pawn of Preservation just like Rashek. Advancing technology in the remote corners of the Empire might take longer, but it should be doable. And I would be shocked if there weren't a bunch of passionate nutcases over there. All of this he did over centuries or even millennia. He couldn't give new technology directly to people, he could try using crazy and spiked people to follow him (which isn't so easy, as they still can act differently - there was a nice example of this in SH), or change text to give them new stuff this way. But you severely underestimate how hard it is to create something new. He would have to select a smart individual first, change several books to explain for example the very basics of the gunpowder and how to manufacture it, create guns or cannons (he can't hand them modern handguns just like then, nor he can't give them knowledge to create them as they don't have manufacturing machines required to do so, nor they can create such machines), and hope this guy would be capable of creating such prototype and get fundings to create weapons on big scale (instead of getting burned on the stake for witchcraft after he explains that the knowledge of this suddenly appeared in books he had). But that's impossible to make under the Lord Ruler's rule, as he was heavily suppressing all new developments in the whole empire. Obligators would immediately find out about this, and the new "inventor" would get assaulted by inquisitors with Koloss' army. Obligators were a necessary component of life and every decision making among nobles (even trivial bets are witnessed by them), you can't hide something like that from them. Skaa would be of no use as he has no education nor money to create those things. As soon as someone tried to use gunpowder he would be dead - gunpowder wouldn't be that effective against Koloss as that's how Rashek was using them and succeeded. And even if Ruin didn't like Rashek, his harsh, deadly and destructive reign was certainly appreciated by Ruin - why destroying a useful tool who creates for you an army of Koloss and Inquisitors, when you can just wait patiently, develop a covered plot and take over those armies after his death? Edited July 11, 2023 by alder24 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ale the Metallic Conjurer Posted July 11, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2023 I should mention that according to Sazed the longer someone is pierced by a Hemalurgic spike, the more Ruin can influence them and the Mists repel from them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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