Thoughts on Shallan?

[firstRainbowRose]

I've noticed a lot of people seem to hate Shallan, and it got me to thinking about those who haven't complained about her that I've noticed. I"m sure you can see what I was thinking with this, but oh well. So, I wanted to ask: Do you love or hate her?

[Mailliw73]

Obviously Shallan is female, Rose, what kind of a question is that? Or are there secrets I'm not privy to?

Edited July 9, 2014 by Mailliw73

[king of nowhere]

there are several traits in girls that triggers in me strong protective instincts and instant fondness.

Shallan has most of them.

Do you know the kind of reaction people who loves animals have when they see a kitty or a doggie? I have that for shallan. And for a few real-life friends too.

But that's just the way I react naturally to girls like her.  it has little to do with her actions.

[lyht]

I guess I have not paid attention. Why would people hate Shallan? She is awesome and clever.

[Kobold King]

Um... I feel stupid for asking, but the gender tab is asking the gender of the voter, right?

[Mailliw73]

Yes. It got me at first too, Kobold.

[firstRainbowRose]

That awkward moment when you realize your poll is not collecting the information you want... Let see if I can fix this or I have to create a new one...

 

You guys can't revote can you? I'm sorry... can you just reply with what your vote would have been? I've just noticed that I've never heard a female say that Shallan drives them crazy, like I do a lot of male readers. I wanted to see if that thought was accurate.

[Reiyeka]

I’ve liked Shallan’s character since she was introduced. She seemed spunky and naive in an interesting way. I didn’t really think of her as annoying, but I kind of liked that she could be perceived that way. To me, it’s really adorable how clever she thinks she is. I won’t go into depth on what I think others don’t like about her, but in general it seems like she comes off as annoying and smart-alecky? I can see that, but when I read the books I didn’t come away with any feelings of Shallan-hate.

I started to fall in love with Shallan when reading more and more of the scenes with her drawing. I looked forward to her chapters in WoK, a lot of times over Kaladin or Dalinar, because of the drawings, Memories, and the whole scholarly setting. It was fascinating and I could relate to that itch to draw. Sanderson did a wonderful job capturing the spirit of an artist. With WoR, I enjoyed seeing her step up and stand on her own without her mentor. She was at times clueless or scared, but you could start to see some of her behaviors as defense mechanisms. I suppose in WoR I started to love her character as much as I loved her abilities.

 

So we aren't voting to change her gender...dangit...hehe. Actually, on that, I think I also like her because I want to be her.

[Moogle]

I guess I have not paid attention. Why would people hate Shallan? She is awesome and clever.

 

A lot of people (like me) have Shallan's humor fall flat. Very flat. She isn't clever or funny to us, and having all the characters constantly praise her for being witty gets a bit grating.

 

WoR spoilers (please can we merge the WoR forum with this one soon):

Also, she's too good at what she does without practice. I've seen people claim her skills match Kaladin's. She's good at manipulating people, and Kaladin is good at fighting people.

 

Sure, I'd accept it... but Kaladin practices near-every day, and has a backstory of practicing for hours and hours every day for months after Tien died to get as good as he possibly could.

 

Shallan on the other hand is a sheltered young girl who quakes at the thought of conflict. She's been out of her manor after being abused by her father for years and years. A few months (? not sure on the timeline), and she's busy pulling fast ones on experienced conwomen, navigating dangerous secret societies with zero setbacks, and in general just has a grand old time succeeding at everything she does. Her competence comes out of nowhere, and it doesn't feel deserved.

 

I just don't find her all that interesting. She is someone that interesting things happen to, rather than being someone who is interesting herself, if that makes any sense.

 

That said, I don't mind Shallan. She has a nice tragic backstory, and I highly enjoyed (can you say that about things that are sad? exquisitely depressing?) her flashbacks in WoR. I wish all of her PoVs were from Jasnah, but she's okay.

 

(Despite my earlier comment about her not being funny, she was involved in some funny scenes in WoR. I highly enjoyed her boots conversation with Kaladin. However, that wasn't her being her normal witty, that was her being silly.)

Edited July 9, 2014 by Moogle

[lyht]

Moogle, I understand what you are saying, even if it not quite how I feel.

[Topomouse]

If I hadn't read WoR i would have probably chosen "Hate", thought that's a too strong a word. I found her pretty annoying in tWoK, and I'm one of the peaple who didn't really care for her witty comments.

 

Then in WoR we learn of her backstory, and my opinion of her went up considerably. On the whole, i re-evalueted her character, but she still isn't one of my favourite, so in the end I chose "neither love nor hate".

 

If I may go slightly off topic: I have to say that, as much as I love Sanderson's books, very few of his characters triggered the kind of fan-love and caring that I see others having for them, and that I often have for characthers in other books. It's not that i hate them of find them badly written, it's just that they don't "click" for me.

For exemple, while I'm liking the story I find it hard to feel involved and excited when reading about Kaladin; on the other hand it was very easy with for example Rand, Perrin and Mat from the Wheel of Time or Harry Dresden from the Dresden Files.

 

[Edit]: For some reasons it doesn't let me vote, it says "You must cast your vote in each question of the poll." but I see only one.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Topomouse

[Argent]

You broke it!

 

 

So until this gets fixed, I'll say that as a guy I love 'er. Wits count for much in my books, and Shallan has them plenty. 

[cem]

A lot of people (like me) have Shallan's humor fall flat. Very flat. She isn't clever or funny to us, and having all the characters constantly praise her for being witty gets a bit grating.

 

WoR spoilers (please can we merge the WoR forum with this one soon):

Also, she's too good at what she does without practice. I've seen people claim her skills match Kaladin's. She's good at manipulating people, and Kaladin is good at fighting people.

 

Sure, I'd accept it... but Kaladin practices near-every day, and has a backstory of practicing for hours and hours every day for months after Tien died to get as good as he possibly could.

 

Shallan on the other hand is a sheltered young girl who quakes at the thought of conflict. She's been out of her manor after being abused by her father for years and years. A few months (? not sure on the timeline), and she's busy pulling fast ones on experienced conwomen, navigating dangerous secret societies with zero setbacks, and in general just has a grand old time succeeding at everything she does. Her competence comes out of nowhere, and it doesn't feel deserved.

 

I just don't find her all that interesting. She is someone that interesting things happen to, rather than being someone who is interesting herself, if that makes any sense.

 

That said, I don't mind Shallan. She has a nice tragic backstory, and I highly enjoyed (can you say that about things that are sad? exquisitely depressing?) her flashbacks in WoR. I wish all of her PoVs were from Jasnah, but she's okay.

 

(Despite my earlier comment about her not being funny, she was involved in some funny scenes in WoR. I highly enjoyed her boots conversation with Kaladin. However, that wasn't her being her normal witty, that was her being silly.)

This.

 

I would also like to add that she is a character that is defined too much by her magical abilities. Much of what she does is a result of her Lightweaving and Memory themselves, rather than a result of the way she chooses to employ those abilities. Anyone with the same powers can do the same stuff without difficulty.

 

When she isn't using her powers, other people often pretend to be morons so Shallan can shine. I am most specifically talking about the highprince meeting and the Oathgate scenes in WoR, neither of which felt particularly realistic to me. I think Jasnah wasn't in the book much, because Shallan could never step out of her shadow.

 

I thought she was mostly a blank sheet with good potential in tWoK, but I can't say I enjoyed her progression in WoR. As she is now, I don't hate or love her. She is simply a part of the series that needs to be tolerated and that I am not too much emotionally invested in.

 

Oh, and I'm male, if it matters.

Edited July 10, 2014 by cem

[lyht]

FYI I am male.

 

For me, I like Shallan not for her humor, but for her courage, tenacity, optimism and intelligence. Her humor at times is a bit juvenile, but she is young, especially in the flashbacks. Because of that, I don't find it weird or out of place. I just happen to like Hoid's and Syl's humor better. 

 

But I do like how Shallan rises above her weaknesses, makes a choice to push forward even when afraid, and inspires others to be better than they are. I like how she is not a standard woman in Alethkar, how she stands out. I like how she is fascinated by little things, beauty and bugs, by how much she loves learning. I like how she smiles and jokes even in the face of despair and destruction. I like her innocence, I like her experience.

 

I don't think she is defined by her magic. I dont think it really works that way on Roshar. Her magic is defined by who she is.

[Aleksiel]

I also find her humor and wisecracks flat. Though I blame this one on Brandon, not on Shallan, if you get what I mean. He wanted to create an extremely witty character, but he pushed it too hard and it doesn't work well (at least for me). I can understand her childhood made her into someone who tries to make a joke out of everything and I am fine with this aspect. I'm not fine with everyone in the books praise Shallan's 'clever' tongue when she seldom says anything worthy of such recognition.

 

She was like the Mery Sue of WoR. Suddenly she could pull out anything just by thinking about it. If she wasn't presented in WoK as shy, scared and inexperienced in every possible way, it might have worked better. But she started with drawing skills then suddenly reading books and drawing the landscape made her incredibly competent in all sorts of areas. Brandon needed her to do too much in WoR without letting us see her improve before that.

I get the trope demands her to improve when Jasnah is gone, but she went from zero to a spy and politics master in no time and with basically no efforts like how she converted a slaver and his men along with a group of deserters after Jasnah told her one sentence about power and perception. I mean seriously, Shallan suddenly became an expert, no practice, no nothing needed. However, I have nothing against her realizing the pattern of the Plains and opening the gate, I'm fine with those.

Her surgebinding defines who she is too much, she doesn't have enough personality without it; she'd lose even her scholar self without the ability to take a Memory, not to mention her drawing, which makes most of who she is.

 

I have great trouble with her character representing the attribute of honesty. It doesn't work for me at all. She is not an honest person, nor does she try to be one. This is my biggest issue with her. We have plenty of other characters that are way more sincere than Shallan and yet she is the incarnation of divine’s honesty. Shallan simply isn't suited for this role. 

 

I am ok with Shallan, however I don't think Brandon did a good job with her compared to almost all other characters.

[Moogle]

I have great trouble with her character representing the attribute of honesty. It doesn't work for me at all. She is not an honest person, nor does she try to be one. This is my biggest issue with her. We have plenty of other characters that are way more sincere than Shallan and yet she is the incarnation of divine’s honesty. Shallan simply isn't suited for this role. 

 

I agree with most of the rest of your post, but this bit is really really interesting. We only know she's "honest/creative" because we've got a collection of (imperfect) Vorin attributes associating Shallan with them. Her order's "oaths" are all about being truthful with yourself, but that's not what she does with others, not like how Kaladin protects. I think "honest" is a bad word for what Shallan represents, much like "learned" is not quite Renarin. I don't think Shallan was intended to represent the divine's honesty, and that the Vorin church got Shallash's attributes a bit muddled.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Moogle

[Chrono]

I love Shallan. I loved her in Way of Kings and I love her in Words of Radiance even more. Her backstory mixed with her way of coping was incredible and I loved her humor (it never fell flat for me, so maybe I just have a strange sense of humor). 

 

As for her being an expert suddenly, I never saw that. Yes, she has to improve and fast, but really she's just imitating Jasnah at that point. She's been living with the woman for a few months, and Shallan is a fairly good actress. She can impersonate people, and Jasnah is the one she chose to impersonate.

 

It also helps that I'm an artist, so I connected with her that way.

[Lifts'Awesomeness]

My personal opinion is that the people who think that Shallan is a poorly written with no wit have no business reading this book.

 

Shallan is a deeply troubled and complex character. If you want to truely understand and apreciate a character you really must pay attention to what you are reading. Skimming this book (as many do with large books with big words) gives you no understanding of its contents.

Wise cracks and lies is all that she had to sunstain her and keep her from falling into madness. She is an extremely brave, intelligent, and endearing character. One of the best character developements I have ever read. She didn't whine HALF as much as Kaladin, she buckled down no matter what her issues and did what she could, and triumphed!

[Reiyeka]

Absolutely understand the points against Shallan, I can see it from that perspective. Well defended. Didn’t really read it that way, but I get it. I do remember thinking by the end of WoR, that I wished Shallan had failed more at the beginning to make her triumphs toward the end more powerful. By the end I expected everything to go right and didn’t fear for her failure.

 

I was rooting for her, of course, but I really thought the story would make her fail more. I didn’t want it, but I was expecting it. Especially when she was trying to inspire the bandits, the first time she’s really tested on her own. In a way you could say killing Tyn and trusting Tyn in the first place was a bit of a failure, but mostly a setback as it had no real repercussions (yet, at least) other than make her situation stickier.

Also, she made a lot of mistakes in WoK. The whole Jasnah wardship was full of her messing up. I felt like she earned it. I didn’t think she had an easy time of it. The whole thing with Kabsal, that was a naive girl getting duped. Though, Jasnah stills keeps her around and solves all her problems afterwards.

Maybe you could say she’s a little too lucky and is getting more second chances than she deserves.

Her manipulation skills come off as a second-nature type thing for me. We learn that she has pretty much been practicing lies all her life. Everything about her stems from the lies her father has to tell, the lies she has to tell herself to survive. So it’s not that surprising to me that she is good at manipulating people and pretending to be Veil.  

As for her as Miss Cleverboots, sometimes I found her pretty funny. It’s like she doesn’t know when to stop. The praise she gets for it…isn’t it more along the lines of “oh you cheeky little rapscallion, you’re a bold one for a little girl,” rather than “wow, you are so clever and smart?” Maybe its a bit of both, especially since she’s a Lighteyes. I really loved when Kaladin called her out on it in the chasms, though. 

But considering all that, I don’t think she’s too perfect maybe just a little too lucky. I still like her character and I am excited to see where the story takes her next. It’s not over. Maybe it all comes crashing down, maybe all the lies catch up with her. Our minds could be changed all over again.

[maxal]

For exemple, while I'm liking the story I find it hard to feel involved and excited when reading about Kaladin; on the other hand it was very easy with for example Rand, Perrin and Mat from the Wheel of Time or Harry Dresden from the Dresden Files.

 

I guess this is a personal matter. On my side, I never felt for any of the WoT characters. I have enjoyed reading the series, but I cannot say I was emotionally involved with Rand, Mat or Perrin. However, I can say I am emotionally involved in many of  the SA characters. For me, Brandon does a really good work of portraying characters I grow attached to even if I like to rant against them from time to time. They are imperfect, but more importantly, they evolved in a realistic manner.

 

Some characters, I literally fell in love with. Others, I love to hate. Some others I just wish them death And there are those with whom I have a love/hate relationship meaning whereas I root for them at times, I also want to punch them in the face at others. Bottom line is there are not many SA characters I do not feel for, but again this is my perception. I understand other people may feel (or not feel) differently.

 

Shallan is one of those characters I have this love/hate relationship with. I liked well enough in WoK. Her story line was not as interesting, to me, as Kaladin's, but I still enjoyed reading her. I felt for her as she dig herself deeper and deeper into her lies and her mess. I was thoroughly happy when she came clean to Jasnah and I love the relationship between these two. She struck me as naive, young, inexperienced, but smart and with a hidden past that may account for some of her skills.

 

In WoR, I was, at first, pleasantly surprised by her. I loved how she progressively went from the shy little girl to the demanding highborn woman who wouldn't take no for an answer. I was thrilled at how she escapes the boat and coaxes the slavers to take her in. It was clever and well played. I didn't feel it was out of the place, I felt it was her natural progression and I was happy Brandon decided to give her a thicker backbone.

 

I was not so pleased with her apprenticeship with Tyn as I felt she was going back to her old ways: lying and digging herself deeper and deeper into it. I was glad it ended quickly. Her taking over the deserters was magnificent and I could feel the transformation from the insecure teenager to the confident young women. Her arrival in the Scattered Plains was memorable and how she got Sebarial to take her in was formidable. I didn't get she was out of her place, I get she had only one card to play and she did it brilliantly.

 

I loved her courtship with Adolin and all their first degree conversation I know, it was childish, but with these two, it fitted. Shallan is a curious young woman who was raised outside the standards of society and she could not forget, for one moment, her natural impulses to ask unsettling questions. Turns out her prospect has too an immature streak and has been looking for a long time for something to light him up and it worked. Yeah!

 

Now, I started to disliked her with the entire Ghostblood plot. I get it why she does it, but as others has pointed out, the fact she manages so easily is little disconcerting. I agree however it was mostly her surge of illumination that got her through it and her quick wit. So I guess I can let that pass. I though her mastery of that skill was quite realistic as she has been a prolific artist for many years. It was also clear she was re-learning something she already knew. Her ability to create alternate universe or to give people a different vision of themselves is quite good and compelling.

 

I thought her wise cracks were mostly funny, but the chasm scene was too much for me. Just too much. It felt like a plot devise to me and I did not like it. However, I was glad she decided to stop hiding her skill and told Kal what she could do in order to them out of there. Finally.

 

I am not so happy about the ending with her... I, like many others, thought it was too easy. She puzzles out a huge mystery renown scholars have been working on for decades in the matter of a few days. I get it she had Jasnah's notes, but Jasnah did not have the answers yet and for, little Shallan getting it all right by herself was a bit much.

 

I also strongly disliked how she treated Pattern at the end, how she said she wanted to kill him. I absolutely love Pattern and his unsettling curiosity (spying on Sebarial's bath and on Dalinar/Navani nightly activities got me cramped out). However, other people have pointed out it was a necessary evil as she needed to expel the memory of her killing her mother and Pattern is tightly tied to that. I a way, he is responsible. I just feel sorry for him and it is not really his fault.

 

 

Bottom line, I would say I generally like Shallan. She is not my favorite, but I am looking forward to read her story plot which has been getting more and more interesting. I may also point out Shallan has this way with life, always seeing the positive side, always seeking for the solution, never moping, never giving up. I admire that strongly and I like reading about such characters.

Edited July 11, 2014 by maxal

[Horatio Spifflewicket]

Oh my, I think I missed the part where

Shallan said she wanted to kill Pattern

and as I checked out the book from the library, I can't go back and check....  would you mind putting a little itty bitty quote up for me?

[Chrono]

Want a quote? Sure thing.

 

"He let everyone believe that he'd killed her," Shallan whispered. "That he'd murdered his wife and her lover in a rage, when I was the one who had actually killed them. He lied to protect me."

"I know."

"That secret destroyed him. It destroyed our entire family."

"I know."

"I hate you," she whispered, staring into her mothers's dead eyes.

"I know." Pattern buzzed softly. "Eventually, you will kill me, and you will have your revenge."

"I don't want revenge. I want my family."

Words of Radiance, Chapter 88, "The Man Who Owned the Winds", p. 1059

[firstRainbowRose]

I personally took that less as...

 

Shallan wanting to kill him, and more of Pattern assuming the betrayal will happen again. It's something that all the spren talk about is how they were betrayed in the past, and it's made them all shy of being partnered up again.

[Horatio Spifflewicket]

Chrono,  Thank ye for that. (and an upvote for good measure).  After typing this next bit out, I realized I should spoiler the whole thing... and maybe put a big

 

DO NOT READ THE SPOILER IF YOU HAVEN'T READ WoR.  SERIOUSLY PEOPLE.

 

before it.

 

 

I'm inclined to agree with firstRainbowRose on that count.  Shallan's emotions read extremely true in that segment - and here I'm going from personal experience - and I think that Pattern is essentially forcing her to start moving through the stages of grief.  For so many years, she has been in Denial.  Not denial that the death occurred, but of her own role in it, essentially repressing all of her memories of that time and replacing them with her father's version of events.  

 

Pattern had just shown her the Truth behind the Lies she was remembering and she moved (I would say snapped?) into the second stage.  And no surprise there that she hates Pattern.  Although, I think that maybe she hates Pattern less... and herself more.

 

My overall feeling on Shallan is that she is going to have to move through the stages of grief in order to become whole and able to make it all the way to the top of the Lightweavers.  It will be only once she is whole that she will be able to be most effective.

 

I think I just talked myself into liking Shallan a little bit more - or at least understanding her better.

[IDK]

I liked her in TWoK but grew to really dislike her in WoR. Her story has become a little too predictable. You just got the feeling that everything was going to fall into place for her. Its almost as if everyone she comes across is under her spell. Not sure how to hide spoilers so Ill just say that I sniffed a certain one on one time with another character coming from a mile away and it turned out as contrived as I thought it would. Turned out to be the worst part of the whole thing for me.

I do love reading her flashback stories, though.