Windrunners have time dilation powers

[Frustration]

I have long been an advocate for the theory that Honor bound all orders, just that Bondsmiths were the most restricted, which lead me to theorize as to what powers Windrunners would have and the answer came to me surprisingly quickly, time dilation.

Now as you are all aware Gravity is a distortion of spacetime, so it seemed like just the kind of thing that a windrunner would be able to effect, along with time being one of the powers listed in the Windrunner's spot of the WoK Prime Surgebinding chart it seems like this is at least something Brandon has considered in the past. Additionally Brandon treats Bendalloy as Gravitational time dilation

Spoiler

EricLake

@BrandSanderson In M:AoL, will bendalloy’s time dilation result in redshifting of light going in/out of the bubble? #weescience

Brandon Sanderson

I’ve been working on the science of it. Basically, I’ve been treating it as a gravitational time dilation.

But only focused inward, and equally, on those inside the bubble. It’s making my brain hurt a bit, but I think I’ve got it working

I think this means yes to a gravitational redshift. But . . . it gets wacky. Trying to decide just what it would do is tough.

General Twitter 2010 (Nov. 22, 2010)

 

So therefore I propose that before Honor restricted surgebinding, and again now that his restrictions have fallen away Windrunners had the ability to manipulate time.

[alder24]

30 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I have long been an advocate for the theory that Honor bound all orders, just that Bondsmiths were the most restricted, which lead me to theorize as to what powers Windrunners would have and the answer came to me surprisingly quickly, time dilation.

Now as you are all aware Gravity is a distortion of spacetime, so it seemed like just the kind of thing that a windrunner would be able to effect, along with time being one of the powers listed in the Windrunner's spot of the WoK Prime Surgebinding chart it seems like this is at least something Brandon has considered in the past. Additionally Brandon treats Bendalloy as Gravitational time dilation

  Reveal hidden contents

EricLake

@BrandSanderson In M:AoL, will bendalloy’s time dilation result in redshifting of light going in/out of the bubble? #weescience

Brandon Sanderson

I’ve been working on the science of it. Basically, I’ve been treating it as a gravitational time dilation.

But only focused inward, and equally, on those inside the bubble. It’s making my brain hurt a bit, but I think I’ve got it working

I think this means yes to a gravitational redshift. But . . . it gets wacky. Trying to decide just what it would do is tough.

General Twitter 2010 (Nov. 22, 2010)

 

So therefore I propose that before Honor restricted surgebinding, and again now that his restrictions have fallen away Windrunners had the ability to manipulate time.

I instinctively wanted to oppose it, I don't know why, but then I remembered this WoB.

Spoiler

MoriWillow

Hello, I hope this message finds you well. I was wondering if you might be able to answer a question. Was going back through the Stormlight books in prep for Rhythm of War, and I realized I didn't actually understand what was happening with the Stormlight when someone used a Basic Lashing. What actually happens to the Stormlight in the creation and maintenance of a Basic Lashing? (Especially when someone is Lashing themselves?)

Brandon Sanderson

Whew. It's complicated. Basically, the magic is persuading the Lashed object that it is not actually bound to the gravity of the planet--but to the gravity of a supermassive object in the direction indicated. (But which doesn't actually exist.) Imagine it as a Lightweaving that creates an illusion, but the illusion is of something massive that only is seen by the Spiritual aspect of the Lashed object/individual.

It works pretty well inside of the cosmere's magical framework, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you approach it from the physics of our realm.

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 12, 2020)

If the Surge of Gravitation doesn't just play with acceleration or Gravitational constant but actually creates something like a fake "spiritual supermassive object in direction indicated" then even if it doesn't exist it would affect the spacetime in the same way as normal gravity does, thus allowing Windrunners to create time dilation with very powerful Lashings.

But then again, they already can Lash themself so many times to reach speeds close to the speed of light in a short time, which will cause time dilation so...

[Leuthie]

The amount of Energy created by the amount of Gravity that would affect time is...hard to imagine. So the amount of Investiture needed to manipulate time should also be more than a Windrunner could hold.

[+Invocation]

37 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

The amount of Energy created by the amount of Gravity that would affect time is...hard to imagine. So the amount of Investiture needed to manipulate time should also be more than a Windrunner could hold.

It's probably one of those things like soulcasting godmetals.

[therunner]

6 hours ago, Leuthie said:

The amount of Energy created by the amount of Gravity that would affect time is...hard to imagine. So the amount of Investiture needed to manipulate time should also be more than a Windrunner could hold.

Well, bendalloy/cadmium can manipulate time and require relatively little Investiture, if you use proper mechanism.
 

So if Gravitation/Adhesion allows for such manipulation, then they could do it relatively cheaply.

 

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

If the Surge of Gravitation doesn't just play with acceleration or Gravitational constant but actually creates something like a fake "spiritual supermassive object in direction indicated" then even if it doesn't exist it would affect the spacetime in the same way as normal gravity does, thus allowing Windrunners to create time dilation with very powerful Lashings.

I would say it would not be through Basic Lashing, but more a new Lashing they would learn about and start using. So 'Time Lashing', the object would retain gravitational attraction, but would now have different time stream.

If that would be the case, it would be targetable effect, which would be intersting.

[Ookla the Silver]

On 6/8/2023 at 3:35 AM, therunner said:

Well, bendalloy/cadmium can manipulate time and require relatively little Investiture, if you use proper mechanism.
 

So if Gravitation/Adhesion allows for such manipulation, then they could do it relatively cheaply.

 

I would say it would not be through Basic Lashing, but more a new Lashing they would learn about and start using. So 'Time Lashing', the object would retain gravitational attraction, but would now have different time 

I'm fairly certain that cadmium and bendalloy don't manipulate time via gravity. That feels very destructive. 

Technically every magic system can distort time with enough power 

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, Argenti said:

I'm fairly certain that cadmium and bendalloy don't manipulate time via gravity. That feels very destructive. 

Technically every magic system can distort time with enough power 

Why would it be done via gravity?

No one is suggesting that.

[Ookla the Silver]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Why would it be done via gravity?

No one is suggesting that.

This part, 

On 6/8/2023 at 3:35 AM, therunner said:

Well, bendalloy/cadmium can manipulate time and require relatively little Investiture, if you use proper mechanism.

Which responded to this,

On 6/7/2023 at 8:58 PM, Leuthie said:

The amount of Energy created by the amount of Gravity that would affect time is...hard to imagine. So the amount of Investiture needed to manipulate time should also be more than a Windrunner could hold.

If they dont think cadmium uses gravity or the ilk, then the cadmium using little Investiture thing is completely irrelevant.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Argenti said:

This part, 

Which responded to this,

If they dont think cadmium uses gravity or the ilk, then the cadmium using little Investiture thing is completely irrelevant.

Cadmium and bendalloy use the same principles as gravitational time dilation, as seen here

Spoiler

EricLake

@BrandSanderson In M:AoL, will bendalloy’s time dilation result in redshifting of light going in/out of the bubble? #weescience

 

Brandon Sanderson

I’ve been working on the science of it. Basically, I’ve been treating it as a gravitational time dilation.

 

But only focused inward, and equally, on those inside the bubble. It’s making my brain hurt a bit, but I think I’ve got it working

 

I think this means yes to a gravitational redshift. But . . . it gets wacky. Trying to decide just what it would do is tough.

 

General Twitter 2010 (Nov. 22, 2010)

Now obviously there is no gravity generated by this, at least none that affects the physical realm.

 

So gravitational time dilation occurs without being generated by gravity.

[Ookla the Silver]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Cadmium and bendalloy use the same principles as gravitational time dilation, as seen here

  Reveal hidden contents

EricLake

@BrandSanderson In M:AoL, will bendalloy’s time dilation result in redshifting of light going in/out of the bubble? #weescience

 

Brandon Sanderson

I’ve been working on the science of it. Basically, I’ve been treating it as a gravitational time dilation.

 

But only focused inward, and equally, on those inside the bubble. It’s making my brain hurt a bit, but I think I’ve got it working

 

I think this means yes to a gravitational redshift. But . . . it gets wacky. Trying to decide just what it would do is tough.

 

General Twitter 2010 (Nov. 22, 2010)

Now obviously there is no gravity generated by this, at least none that affects the physical realm.

 

So gravitational time dilation occurs without being generated by gravity.

Huh... This possess so many questions... 

But yea I doubt windrunners could (in reasonable situations) control time, maybe they could slow it down a bit, centerbeat style, but only for a moment.

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Argenti said:

I'm fairly certain that cadmium and bendalloy don't manipulate time via gravity. That feels very destructive. 

Spacetime is a four-dimensional plane containing 3 spatial dimensions of x, y, z, and the 4th one which is the dimension of time. Gravity causes the curvature of spacetime in every dimension. I explain cadmium and bendalloy behavior by them just curving the time dimension without touching spatial dimensions. It stretches and compresses spacetime only in one dimension. And that's how gravity works. They both create the same effect via the same principles, but Allomancy is just more limited. 

On 8.06.2023 at 9:35 AM, therunner said:

I would say it would not be through Basic Lashing, but more a new Lashing they would learn about and start using. So 'Time Lashing', the object would retain gravitational attraction, but would now have different time stream.

If that would be the case, it would be targetable effect, which would be intersting.

Yes, new Lashing would likely be the best way. I didn't want that Lashing to affect the gravitational attraction of the lashed object, only its perceived time.