Long Game 95: The Fire of Ado's Light

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

First of all,

I would like to announce to all players that I am founding the 18th Shard Memers alliance, committed to actually using the power we have contained for personal profit and for the lulz! I am not accepting applications, get lost!!! >:) this is actually because literally anyone can join, no application necessary, all are welcome <3

 

Secondly, sign me up as Adjunct Professor Uther, a new hire at SilverPoly but an old hand at researching the invested arts, known by some to be teaching an afternoon class about resonance interactions found in Survival's investiture.

[Kasimir he/him]

4 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

I would like to announce to all players that I am founding the 18th Shard Memers alliance, committed to actually using the power we have contained for personal profit and for the lulz! I am not accepting applications, get lost!!! >:) this is actually because literally anyone can join, no application necessary, all are welcome <3

 

Sir,

I am interested in joining, but inquire why the name looks so Evil and red. Request a change to forest green. Please accept:

-1 DarthPlagueisNOTASCAM NFT

as a token of appreciation.

-Kas

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Just now, Kasimir said:

Sir,

I am interested in joining, but inquire why the name looks so Evil and red. Request a change to forest green. Please accept:

-1 DarthPlagueisNOTASCAM NFT

as a token of appreciation.

-Kas

an intriguing offer

what is the approximate value of -1 DarthPlagueisNOTASCAM NFT in fanfictions

[Kasimir he/him]

8 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

an intriguing offer

what is the approximate value of -1 DarthPlagueisNOTASCAM NFT in fanfictions

r u talking kaladin/moash fanfics or shallan/adolin/kaladin fanfics & how steamy

diff conversion rate applies

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

1 minute ago, Kasimir said:

r u talking kaladin/moash fanfics or shallan/adolin/kaladin fanfics & how steamy

yes

3 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

diff conversion rate applies

but does the conversion rate change continuously while u do a conversion due to supply & demand???

also do u do fractions in ur conversion because i am allergic to division

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, DrakeMarshall said:

yes

sir u have to pick ur currency

but also u won't know the True Value(TM) of ur NFT unless u flip it

BUT

u could make a profit on it :eyes:

2 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

but does the conversion rate change continuously while u do a conversion due to supply & demand???

also do u do fractions in ur conversion because i am allergic to division

unfortunately sir if u don't want volatility u shld play with fiat

memes r volatile too

no because division is evil >:(

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

3 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

sir u have to pick ur currency

nobody tells me what to do >:P surprise me >:P

Just now, Kasimir said:

but also u won't know the True Value(TM) of ur NFT unless u flip it

BUT

u could make a profit on it :eyes:

sir i am not a coward i am prepared to risk it for the biscuit on the crypto market and get my chance to earn big

twice the stakes, double the steaks (they r not salmon steaks dont worry)

14 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

unfortunately sir if u don't want volatility u shld play with fiat

memes r volatile too

unfortunately sir if u don't want volatility u shld probably also reject fiat and return to the gold standard >:P

there is even a nice yellow brick road u can follow to get there >:P

i for one embrace volatility however

volatility is my middle name

1 minute ago, Kasimir said:

no because division is evil >:(

good i was worried for a second that u were not an upstanding establishment but i see u can be trusted

[Ashbringer he/him]

2 hours ago, xinoehp512 said:

Secondly, @Ashbringer I'm just gonna ask a few questions. I will note that your rules are really good at covering all the bases; a lot of questions that I had I was able to answer myself through closer inspection of the rules.

• To confirm: players on Silverlight can target other players as if they were on the same Shardworld?
• Is Vessel Shield once per player, once per Shard, or something else? How does Preservation factor into this?
• If Ambition turns a living player into a Shade, does that kill them?
• The rules text for Shade says that you retain Charges of Investiture you held up death- If Ambition targets a dead player, do they regain the Charges they had while alive?
• Could a Vessel gain a Charge of Investiture on both the Day and Night turns?
• Do I understand correctly that Sel allows you to convert Charges from one form into another?

Thirdly, I am very concerned by the possibility that a large number of people will grab Odious Investiture N0 and use it N1 to drastically reduce the player count. It seems like a very accessible and very powerful means of murder. How much of a concern do you think this is?

Thanks! I spent a long time dealing with edge cases 

• Yes, players on Silverlight can target players on any Shardworld as if they were on the same Shardworld. Also, players on any Shardworld can target players on Silverlight as if they were on the same Shardworld.
• Vessel Shield is once per player, not once per Shard. Preservation's Investiture can grant a non-Vessel player Vessel Shield temporarily, and if they use the Vessel Shield extra life then it is still expended. (The Vessel of Survival can use their Investment Ability to regain their expended Vessel Shield, that should be the only way to get multiple.)
• Ambition's Shardic Ability doesn't kill players. A living player will gain the "Shade" role and be notified, but it won't do anything until they die.
• A dead player who becomes a Shade post-death regains their Charges (although it may make more sense to say all players keep their Charges, but only Shades can actually use them - same result though).
• No, just once per cycle. Abilities that can be used either Day or Night should only be usable once per cycle unless marked otherwise (like Autonomy/Whimsy's Shardics). I should mark that specifically though.
• Yep! Sel lets you convert Charges of Investiture from one to another, just also takes an action.

As for en-masse Odious Investiture... hmm. I don't know how likely it would be, but it's something I didn't really consider. I will note the 3 starting non-17th-Sharders all have a decent amount of starting Charges of Investiture they can use to defend better than most of the 17th Shard Researchers, not to mention Bavadin's Vessel Shield... but it could be a strategy. Reminds me of games where exe ties kill all tied players, and invariably someone suggests a tie including massive amounts of the player list. That usually doesn't happen because the Elims can mess with it, but that's not the case so much here.

I'll take a look at it. I don't think the answer would be saying no Charges of Investiture are handed out if the Shard breaches, because while that was the rule in LG43 it led to there not being many Charges in the midgame. But I agree, losing half the player list N1 would be non-ideal.

(Although if I don't change it and I've made a giant game like this and y'all somehow end it on D2, I'm running an LG95b )

[Kasimir he/him]

5 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

nobody tells me what to do >:P surprise me >:P

then u will get 5 pro-Village haikus instead >:(

forest green pls

Memes r not evil how dare u >:(

6 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

sir i am not a coward i am prepared to risk it for the biscuit on the crypto market and get my chance to earn big

then u have nothing to fear do u

6 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

twice the stakes, double the steaks (they r not salmon steaks dont worry)

damn right they'd better not be

18 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

unfortunately sir if u don't want volatility u shld probably also reject fiat and return to the gold standard >:P

*cries in who shorted my broams*

18 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

volatility is my middle name

i find this very disturbing

18 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

good i was worried for a second that u were not an upstanding establishment but i see u can be trusted

of course i can 

this is not the black market

only the finest, premium quality [THIS WORD HAS BEEN CENSORED FOR NOT BEING FAMILY-FRIENDLY ENOUGH FOR SE! STAB A FRIEND WITH YOUR FRIENDS TODAY IN SE! MINT SE-STABCOIN TODAY!] palpatine meme NFTs minted here sir

8 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

As for en-masse Odious Investiture... hmm. I don't know how likely it would be, but it's something I didn't really consider. I will note the 3 starting non-17th-Sharders all have a decent amount of starting Charges of Investiture they can use to defend better than most of the 17th Shard Researchers, not to mention Bavadin's Vessel Shield... but it could be a strategy. Reminds me of games where exe ties kill all tied players, and invariably someone suggests a tie including massive amounts of the player list. That usually doesn't happen because the Elims can mess with it, but that's not the case so much here.

If they can all defend better, it just sort of reads Pyrrhic for 17th, isn't it? As a strat you're basically shooting blindly and hoping to Red Wedding as many people as possible, but that's more likely to hurt your faction wincon than help it.

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 minute ago, Kasimir said:

If they can all defend better, it just sort of reads Pyrrhic for 17th, isn't it? As a strat you're basically shooting blindly and hoping to Red Wedding as many people as possible, but that's more likely to hurt your faction wincon than help it.

... how much the GM can discuss strategies? 

I say "better", but they have much more limited options compared to a normal Elim team getting out of a every-player-tie situation. Plus by N1 the maximum number of non-17th-Shard players is 5, which even if there's only 20 players isn't that many, especially since that 5 is still 3 different competing alignments - and that's if Hoid and Khriss spend N0 converting instead of using any of their other actions (such as, say, using a Charge of Preservation's Investiture to have protection on N1 from a storm of Odiuous Investiture attacks...). And I'd imagine that players that survive an attack in that scenario could also raise some 17th Shard eyebrows.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

12 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

(Although if I don't change it and I've made a giant game like this and y'all somehow end it on D2, I'm running an LG95b )

Hey, LG43 technically had LG43a and LG43b, so you are in good company 

4 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

then u will get 5 pro-Village haikus instead >:(

forest green pls

Memes r not evil how dare u >:(

its a deal then!!!

Everyone, be advised that the 18th Shard Memers have hereby changed names and will henceforth be known as the 18th Shard Memers.

Please use the designated font, color, and size, or else be prosecuted to the maximum extent of the Law.

9 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

this is not the black market

correct it is obviously the forest green market

11 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

only the finest, premium quality [THIS WORD HAS BEEN CENSORED FOR NOT BEING FAMILY-FRIENDLY ENOUGH FOR SE! STAB A FRIEND WITH YOUR FRIENDS TODAY IN SE! MINT SE-STABCOIN TODAY!] palpatine meme NFTs minted here sir

but i just invested all of my life savings in PUMPCOIN it seems very trustworthy

[Ashbringer he/him]

Just now, DrakeMarshall said:

Hey, LG43 technically had LG43a and LG43b, so you are in good company 

Oh yeah!

Although that was because of spreadsheet things... Spreadsheets are fun. I started mine by spending 4 hours copying over the OoA 

[Kasimir he/him]

4 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

... how much the GM can discuss strategies? 

I say "better", but they have much more limited options compared to a normal Elim team getting out of a every-player-tie situation. Plus by N1 the maximum number of non-17th-Shard players is 5, which even if there's only 20 players isn't that many, especially since that 5 is still 3 different competing alignments - and that's if Hoid and Khriss spend N0 converting instead of using any of their other actions (such as, say, using a Charge of Preservation's Investiture to have protection on N1 from a storm of Odiuous Investiture attacks...). And I'd imagine that players that survive an attack in that scenario could also raise some 17th Shard eyebrows.

Probably moderately; I'm just questioning the extent to which that's a significant strategy or worry because that still reads like you'd do much more damage to the 17th than to the other factions, going into the next cycle drastically reduced. Knowing who the others are doesn't help you if you have lost your main advantage, which is numeric strength.

There's a separate question which is how realistic is it that players will care when they can get a kill (see: Hael's social experiment Cursor game) but I'm not really buying that it's a beneficial strat for 17th, which most of us are likely to start as.

6 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Everyone, be advised that the 18th Shard Memers have hereby changed names and will henceforth be known as the 18th Shard Memers.

Please use the designated font, color, and size, or else be prosecuted to the maximum extent of the Law.

pleasure doing crypto with u sir

#1

beautifully green
evildoers must perish
come we exe them all

8 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Please use the designated font, color, and size, or else be prosecuted to the maximum extent of the Law.

The Law???

Sir. This is a Division-fearing, honest, Crypto institution here. You have become that which you sought to destroy!!!

9 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

but i just invested all of my life savings in PUMPCOIN it seems very trustworthy

why would u do something like that

did u learn nothing from $SCAMCOIN

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

9 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Oh yeah!

Although that was because of spreadsheet things... Spreadsheets are fun. I started mine by spending 4 hours copying over the OoA 

fun yes 

Spoiler

I respect your organizational talents.

5 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

beautifully green
evildoers must perish
come we exe them all

lovely :')

none of the official game factions are green so I'm pretty sure that makes the 18th Shard Memers the real village here I think we can all agree

7 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

The Law???

Sir. This is a Division-fearing, honest, Crypto institution here. You have become that which you sought to destroy!!!

That sounds an awful lot like an absolute, and only Skybreakers speak in absolutes!!! >:P

8 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

why would u do something like that

did u learn nothing from $SCAMCOIN

yes i learned how to commit a ponzi scheme

why do u ask?

[Kasimir he/him]

9 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

yes i learned how to commit a ponzi scheme

U HAVE BECOME THAT WHICH U SOUGHT TO EXPLOIT

9 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

That sounds an awful lot like an absolute, and only Skybreakers speak in absolutes!!! >:P

sir so u r a Skybreaker then?

10 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

none of the official game factions are green so I'm pretty sure that makes the 18th Shard Memers the real village here I think we can all agree

#2

opening PM
joy overflowing, heart full
forest green, always green

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

11 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

U HAVE BECOME THAT WHICH U SOUGHT TO EXPLOIT

12 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

sir so u r a Skybreaker then?

sir absolutely not when have i ever spoken in absolutes

14 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

#2

opening PM
joy overflowing, heart full
forest green, always green

sir its not easy being green

are u sure u are not a frog

or a goblin

or mayhaps a mysterious knight

only one way 2 find out

sir i have a hot new deal 4 u:

u let me hit u with an axe, BUT u can hit me back after a year and a day

[DeTess she/her]

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

•  

As for en-masse Odious Investiture... hmm. I don't know how likely it would be, but it's something I didn't really consider. I will note the 3 starting non-17th-Sharders all have a decent amount of starting Charges of Investiture they can use to defend better than most of the 17th Shard Researchers, not to mention Bavadin's Vessel Shield... but it could be a strategy. Reminds me of games where exe ties kill all tied players, and invariably someone suggests a tie including massive amounts of the player list. That usually doesn't happen because the Elims can mess with it, but that's not the case so much here.

I'll take a look at it. I don't think the answer would be saying no Charges of Investiture are handed out if the Shard breaches, because while that was the rule in LG43 it led to there not being many Charges in the midgame. But I agree, losing half the player list N1 would be non-ideal.

(Although if I don't change it and I've made a giant game like this and y'all somehow end it on D2, I'm running an LG95b )

So regarding the massed odium charges, potential 'fixes' other than no charges on escape (because I do agree it looks a bit worrysome).

• Odium kill requires a second charge of investiture to use (but could be from another shard)
• Preservation charges activate the next turn rather than the next cycle (so any N0 preservation charges could be used D1 to have protection N1 and D2)
• On breakout, only 4 charges are distributed.

The first and second idea achieve the same goal of ensuring the kills can't come down before proper self protects do, while the last one limits the amount of charges on escape to keep the chaos down.

Also, can vessel actions from ambition charges stack (so you could get more than 2 actions)?

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, DeTess said:

So regarding the massed odium charges, potential 'fixes' other than no charges on escape (because I do agree it looks a bit worrysome).

• Odium kill requires a second charge of investiture to use (but could be from another shard)
• Preservation charges activate the next turn rather than the next cycle (so any N0 preservation charges could be used D1 to have protection N1 and D2)
• On breakout, only 4 charges are distributed.

The first and second idea achieve the same goal of ensuring the kills can't come down before proper self protects do, while the last one limits the amount of charges on escape to keep the chaos down.

Also, can vessel actions from ambition charges stack (so you could get more than 2 actions)?

I like the last idea - a bit more RNG in things, but that's probably fine. The first is a bit messy because that's essentially how Braize works, and while the second works in principle it makes it more difficult to track Vessel Action/Shield on my end because it's not per cycle (which... wouldn't be the end of the world, considering Investment Roles work on not-cycles too) and it still might force Khriss/Bavadin to grab Preservation's Charge of Investiture N0, and Hoid can't even do that.

I'm also not too scared of a lot of kills being available late game, because then there's a lot more things in play to either avoid/survive kills or actually give them more targeting than en masse use. 

 

As for Vessel Action, you can't stack it (although it technically means you have 3 actions per cycle; one Day, one Night, and one from Vessel Action that can be either). So Ambition's Charge of Investiture won't do anything if you already have Vessel Action. Well, unless you have a Shard and then pass it during the Day turn, you'd still have Vessel Action for the Night.

 

Edit: Also Vessel Shield/Action are primarily cycle based because if it was “the next 2 turns”, using Ambition’s/Valor’s Investiture during the Day could net you 2 extra actions (that Cycle’s Night and the next one’s Day) vs only 1 extra action for the next Cycle if used at Night.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Ashbringer

[xinoehp512 he/him]

6 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

First of all,

I would like to announce to all players that I am founding the 18th Shard Memers alliance, committed to actually using the power we have contained for personal profit and for the lulz! I am not accepting applications, get lost!!! >:) this is actually because literally anyone can join, no application necessary, all are welcome <3

 

Secondly, sign me up as Adjunct Professor Uther, a new hire at SilverPoly but an old hand at researching the invested arts, known by some to be teaching an afternoon class about resonance interactions found in Survival's investiture.

I see how it is...

3 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I'm also not too scared of a lot of kills being available late game, because then there's a lot more things in play to either avoid/survive kills or actually give them more targeting than en masse use. 

I feel like the root cause of the issue is that Odious Charges are just so much more potent then every other Charge of Investiture. Really, it isn't really that difficult to gain a charge of any type of Investiture, in any stage of the game. Sel exists, for one. With Odium, Whimsy's Investment ability essentially becomes a kill, and Invention's Shardic is a third per-cycle kill if they get their hands on an Odious Charge.

I feel like having Braize exist satisfies the need for endgame kills; Odious Investiture will be practically guaranteed to shorten the game if it keeps its power as-is, which makes everything significantly more volatile. If it was changed to roleblock, matching Ruin, or something else, that problem would be much assuaged.

5 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Probably moderately; I'm just questioning the extent to which that's a significant strategy or worry because that still reads like you'd do much more damage to the 17th than to the other factions, going into the next cycle drastically reduced. Knowing who the others are doesn't help you if you have lost your main advantage, which is numeric strength.

There's a separate question which is how realistic is it that players will care when they can get a kill (see: Hael's social experiment Cursor game) but I'm not really buying that it's a beneficial strat for 17th, which most of us are likely to start as.

Honestly, I don't even think it would need to be a deliberate strat to cause problems. The fact is, pretty much every faction has a reason to want Odium, especially the 17th Shard, so a lot of people will go for it. That leaves a lot of kills floating around.

3 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I like the last idea - a bit more RNG in things, but that's probably fine.

Personally, if that change is implemented, I would rather that change not be implemented for other shards- I like the idea of knowing what I'm going to get!

 

[Kasimir he/him]

3 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

Honestly, I don't even think it would need to be a deliberate strat to cause problems. The fact is, pretty much every faction has a reason to want Odium, especially the 17th Shard, so a lot of people will go for it. That leaves a lot of kills floating around.

That's basically the assertion I disagree with, but I'm also not a fan of blindly killing and treat Village Coinshots as a necessary evil.

[xinoehp512 he/him]

59 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

That's basically the assertion I disagree with, but I'm also not a fan of blindly killing and treat Village Coinshots as a necessary evil.

I mean, aside from the vig kill, Odium's ability to Shatter Shards makes it significantly more likely the 17th can meet their sudden-death wincons and significantly less likely AC or SoU can meet theirs.

But the kill is a powerful tool too, especially in a conversion game. The sooner the village can take out the enemy leaders, the less they have to worry about.

[Kasimir he/him]

43 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

I mean, aside from the vig kill, Odium's ability to Shatter Shards makes it significantly more likely the 17th can meet their sudden-death wincons and significantly less likely AC or SoU can meet theirs.

But the kill is a powerful tool too, especially in a conversion game. The sooner the village can take out the enemy leaders, the less they have to worry about.

Killing early in a conversion game puts down more of your allies than enemies. This isn't a no exe argument, this is an argument about accuracy and kills do not typically promote discussion. Fifth shot Village Lurchers. I challenge you to show me a vig apart from Alv or Illwei with a good accuracy rate. Until then, it's wishful thinking. 

Sure about the sudden death but it's not a necessary route there either. Pressuring Hoid and Khriss matters more. Again, your assertion. Wherefrom arises this accuracy? Where was this keen sense of discernment in every Village game I have played since the beginning of this year? Perhaps you simply don't care how many allies you kill. I do.

@DrakeMarshall

#3:

Voting at lylo

Another Villager dead.

O world, o broken world.

[xinoehp512 he/him]

17 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Killing early in a conversion game puts down more of your allies than enemies. This isn't a no exe argument, this is an argument about accuracy and kills do not typically promote discussion. Fifth shot Village Lurchers. I challenge you to show me a vig apart from Alv or Illwei with a good accuracy rate. Until then, it's wishful thinking.

In a normal conversion game you'd only have one target, whereas here you have two + Bavadin.

17 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Sure about the sudden death but it's not a necessary route there either. Pressuring Hoid and Khriss matters more. Again, your assertion. Wherefrom arises this accuracy? Where was this keen sense of discernment in every Village game I have played since the beginning of this year? Perhaps you simply don't care how many allies you kill. I do.

@DrakeMarshall

#3:

Voting at lylo

Another Villager dead.

O world, o broken world.

I don't really want to be killing a lot either, but if there are enough convert actions, the math could very well work out in the village favor. We should probably save debates on optimal strategy until the game actually starts though.

Either way, if there are kills available there will be shots fired. Even if only four people get charges, that's still enough to take out 20% of players (assuming a 20 player game) and they could all potentially happen in one cycle.

[Ashbringer he/him]

4 hours ago, xinoehp512 said:

I feel like the root cause of the issue is that Odious Charges are just so much more potent then every other Charge of Investiture. Really, it isn't really that difficult to gain a charge of any type of Investiture, in any stage of the game. Sel exists, for one. With Odium, Whimsy's Investment ability essentially becomes a kill, and Invention's Shardic is a third per-cycle kill if they get their hands on an Odious Charge.

I feel like having Braize exist satisfies the need for endgame kills; Odious Investiture will be practically guaranteed to shorten the game if it keeps its power as-is, which makes everything significantly more volatile. If it was changed to roleblock, matching Ruin, or something else, that problem would be much assuaged.

Honestly, I don't even think it would need to be a deliberate strat to cause problems. The fact is, pretty much every faction has a reason to want Odium, especially the 17th Shard, so a lot of people will go for it. That leaves a lot of kills floating around.

Personally, if that change is implemented, I would rather that change not be implemented for other shards- I like the idea of knowing what I'm going to get!

 

The other issue with Braize is that Ruin can blow it up, which happened in LG43 almost immediately. That (combined with stacking extra lives and an unlimited Endowment) meant that very few players actually died.

I do have another idea - that Odium’s Charge of Investiture could instead only Kill if the target has no Charges of Investiture and just remove one if they do.

(Also SoU doesn’t care much about Splintered Shards. AC does, although I’m wondering how balanced that is… hmmm.)

[Kasimir he/him]

2 hours ago, xinoehp512 said:

In a normal conversion game you'd only have one target, whereas here you have two + Bavadin.

Sure. So killing our team helps them more.

2 hours ago, xinoehp512 said:

I don't really want to be killing a lot either, but if there are enough convert actions, the math could very well work out in the village favor. We should probably save debates on optimal strategy until the game actually starts though.

'If there are enough convert actions, and I piss into the wind, it might fly about and hit someone I want dead because hope is absolutely a strategy'

2 hours ago, xinoehp512 said:

Either way, if there are kills available there will be shots fired. Even if only four people get charges, that's still enough to take out 20% of players (assuming a 20 player game) and they could all potentially happen in one cycle.

I'm not disputing that people will be kill hungry. I'm disputing that it's the smart or rational thing to do. Again, I point to Hael's Canim game - to put it bluntly, players are gonna player. Frankly if they lose as a result of just being bloodthirsty, it's well-deserved. But I can't say I won't be put out to lose again to teammates deciding to do things of which the kindest can be said is: 'questionable judgement.'