+ShardlessVessel Posted May 18, 2023 Posted May 18, 2023 Quote The death is my life, the strength becomes my weakness, the journey has ended. —Observed on Betabanes 1173, 95 seconds pre-death, collected secondhand and later reported to the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a scholar of some minor renown. Sample considered questionable. [WOK 60] I've resisted the idea that this death rattle is related to voidbinders, but I have just now had an idea that I feel I must put out into the world, in the slim chance that it's right. Between the voidbinding chart and Brandon's implication that Renarin uses voidbinding, there is reason to think that voidbinders are something similar to the Knights Radiant (I sometimes like to refer to that hypothetical organization as the "Knights Vibrant"). The soul of voidbinding is to divine the future, so my theory is that the Ideals sworn by a voidbinder are actually the ending for their actual Ideals, as if they were seeing the end of their own service in the future. The death is my life (I have lived before I die, but my death comes now) The strength becomes my weakness (I was strong, and now I'm weak) The journey has ended (I have journeyed, and now I have arrived at my destination) The Knight (?) means to swear the actual oaths, but they simultaneously prophesy their own failure/ending/death. It would be a very Honor/Odium vibe to swear that you'll break your own oath, I think. 2
alder24 Posted May 18, 2023 Posted May 18, 2023 8 hours ago, ShardlessVessel said: I've resisted the idea that this death rattle is related to voidbinders, but I have just now had an idea that I feel I must put out into the world, in the slim chance that it's right. Between the voidbinding chart and Brandon's implication that Renarin uses voidbinding, there is reason to think that voidbinders are something similar to the Knights Radiant (I sometimes like to refer to that hypothetical organization as the "Knights Vibrant"). The soul of voidbinding is to divine the future, so my theory is that the Ideals sworn by a voidbinder are actually the ending for their actual Ideals, as if they were seeing the end of their own service in the future. The death is my life (I have lived before I die, but my death comes now) The strength becomes my weakness (I was strong, and now I'm weak) The journey has ended (I have journeyed, and now I have arrived at my destination) The Knight (?) means to swear the actual oaths, but they simultaneously prophesy their own failure/ending/death. It would be a very Honor/Odium vibe to swear that you'll break your own oath, I think. I wouldn't say that every Voidbinder would be able to see the future, this is mostly Truthwatchers thing. But overall I find it possible that this Death Rattle is related to Voidbinding, and this could be the final Ideal for them (which would be weird to have a Death Rattle word to word the same as their final Ideal). Also I don't think it would be in Odium/Honor vibe to swear about breaking their oaths, Odium isn't about breaking Oaths, he isn't the opposite of Honor. However I believe that this particular Death Rattle is about breaking Oaths in general, heavliy related to Shallan, as it's very similar to the way Shallan broke her own bond with Testament: Quote “I don’t want you! I hate you! I’m done! You never existed. You are nothing. And I am finished!” "Life never existed, the Strength is nothing, and the journey is finished" - Sounds similar? 3
+ShardlessVessel Posted May 18, 2023 Author Posted May 18, 2023 32 minutes ago, alder24 said: I wouldn't say that every Voidbinder would be able to see the future, this is mostly Truthwatchers thing. Quote "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." TWOK 18 While Kadash is quoting Vorin dogma in this passage, that it has to do with futuresight is pretty much all we know about it. Remember that this IS a cracktheory, lol It's possible that only some voidbinders can see the future, though. Quote Also I don't think it would be in Odium/Honor vibe to swear about breaking their oaths, Odium isn't about breaking Oaths, he isn't the opposite of Honor. I was looking at it as a contrast to the Honor/Cultivation mix in the KR. Honor is broadly about swearing and keeping oaths, while Cultivation is broadly about progress. The Knights Radiant swear oaths of self-improvement. Odium seems to be broadly about conflict, and if you replace him for Cultivation in the KR, you might get Knights that swear oath that are in conflict with themselves (e.g. swearing that you'll break the oath you're swearing). That's what I meant, if it makes sense. 41 minutes ago, alder24 said: However I believe that this particular Death Rattle is about breaking Oaths in general, heavliy related to Shallan, as it's very similar to the way Shallan broke her own bond with Testament: Quote “I don’t want you! I hate you! I’m done! You never existed. You are nothing. And I am finished!” "Life never existed, the Strength is nothing, and the journey is finished" - Sounds similar? I support this theory as well. 2
alder24 Posted May 18, 2023 Posted May 18, 2023 1 minute ago, ShardlessVessel said: I was looking at it as a contrast to the Honor/Cultivation mix in the KR. Honor is broadly about swearing and keeping oaths, while Cultivation is broadly about progress. The Knights Radiant swear oaths of self-improvement. Odium seems to be broadly about conflict, and if you replace him for Cultivation in the KR, you might get Knights that swear oath that are in conflict with themselves (e.g. swearing that you'll break the oath you're swearing). That's what I meant, if it makes sense. Why would Odium replace Cultivation? He would join in and become the third factor. What would be the combination of progress, oaths and conflict?
+ShardlessVessel Posted May 18, 2023 Author Posted May 18, 2023 10 minutes ago, alder24 said: Why would Odium replace Cultivation? Because. It's one possible combination. You could have all three, or you could have two separate combinations - one for Honor/Odium, one for Honor/Cultivation.
Argenti he/him Posted May 18, 2023 Posted May 18, 2023 54 minutes ago, ShardlessVessel said: Because. It's one possible combination. You could have all three, or you could have two separate combinations - one for Honor/Odium, one for Honor/Cultivation. And Cultivation/Odium, don't forget Wildlight!
+ShardlessVessel Posted May 18, 2023 Author Posted May 18, 2023 2 hours ago, Argenti said: And Cultivation/Odium, don't forget Wildlight! Of course! We do get their combined Rhythm in ROW along with Honor/Odium's, IIRC. And the Old Magic is supposedly a cousin to voidbinding. The term "Wildlight" is new to me, though. I like it.
Quantus he/him Posted May 18, 2023 Posted May 18, 2023 25 minutes ago, ShardlessVessel said: Of course! We do get their combined Rhythm in ROW along with Honor/Odium's, IIRC. And the Old Magic is supposedly a cousin to voidbinding. The term "Wildlight" is new to me, though. I like it. Yah, I'd only ever seen FreedomLight, from that line of Venli's. But I think I like WildLight better (mostly because it doesnt sound like an overly patriotic light beer). 3
Argenti he/him Posted May 19, 2023 Posted May 19, 2023 (edited) 19 hours ago, Quantus said: an overly patriotic light beer. Lifelight could have been called Budlight (like a plant Bud) 20 hours ago, ShardlessVessel said: The term "Wildlight" is new to me, though. I like it. I stole it from someone on the shard, I don't remember who Edited May 19, 2023 by Argenti 1
JohnnyKaizen he/him Posted August 18, 2023 Posted August 18, 2023 Also keep in mind that at least one Truthwatcher could foresee the future (Unless Brandon threw that in there as a red herring, which maybe, but I doubt it with Truthwatchers being so tight lipped about what they could do pre-Recreance).
bmcclure7 Posted July 7, 2024 Posted July 7, 2024 (edited) On 5/18/2023 at 8:26 AM, ShardlessVessel said: While Kadash is quoting Vorin dogma in this passage, that it has to do with futuresight is pretty much all we know about it. Remember that this IS a cracktheory, lol It's possible that only some voidbinders can see the future, though. I was looking at it as a contrast to the Honor/Cultivation mix in the KR. Honor is broadly about swearing and keeping oaths, while Cultivation is broadly about progress. The Knights Radiant swear oaths of self-improvement. Odium seems to be broadly about conflict, and if you replace him for Cultivation in the KR, you might get Knights that swear oath that are in conflict with themselves (e.g. swearing that you'll break the oath you're swearing). That's what I meant, if it makes sense. I support this theory as well. No, Odium is not about conflict conflict. It’s just a byproduct of what he is he is about passion specifically hatred to a lesser extent passion in general. Spoiler In the preview chapters for WaT it is revealed that the passions are of odium, and it is hinted that there might hold the key to voidbinding @ShardlessVessel I suspect that instead of a inverse first oath the void binders will have something more demanding something like “Take my Pain” a phase already associated with odium and unmade Edited July 7, 2024 by bmcclure7 1
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