A different kind of vs. thread

[The Sibling she/her]

I keep seeing threads where they pit the most powerful characters of the cosemere against each other and it's really cool and awesome, but I thought it might be fun to consider what would happen if some of the weaker characters fought. We don't talk about them as mch because they are less strong, but I think it could be interesting. For example (This is really random if anyone thinks of a better one go ahead) what if a pewter misting (Ham) fought a first ideal edgedancer (Let's say Lift)?

This might be concluded very quickly because there are less possibilities when characters are less powerful, so if anyone wants to add more pairings go ahead.

[Frustration]

The Edgedancer wins, in a very brutal fashion.

First they trip their opponent by slicking the ground, then they throw vinebud seeds on them and cause them to grow, the vines pin the pewterarm, while the buds dig into their flesh and bones, seeking nutrients.

Finally if it's taking too long, vines grow down their mouth and sufficate them.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Frustration

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Edgedancer wins, in a very brutal fashion.

First they trip their opponent by slicking the ground, then they throw vinebud seeds on them and cause them to grow, the vines pin the pewterarm, while the buds dig into their flesh and bones, seeking nutrients.

Finally if it's taking too long, vines grow down their mouth and sufficate them.

O_o

[alder24]

54 minutes ago, The Sibling said:

I keep seeing threads where they pit the most powerful characters of the cosemere against each other and it's really cool and awesome, but I thought it might be fun to consider what would happen if some of the weaker characters fought. We don't talk about them as mch because they are less strong, but I think it could be interesting. For example (This is really random if anyone thinks of a better one go ahead) what if a pewter misting (Ham) fought a first ideal edgedancer (Let's say Lift)?

This might be concluded very quickly because there are less possibilities when characters are less powerful, so if anyone wants to add more pairings go ahead.

Cool idea but this particular fight ends quickly  

Sparing Radiants of 1st Ideal against most Mistings/Ferrings will end up quickly for Scadrians. 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Cool idea but this particular fight ends quickly  

Sparing Radiants of 1st Ideal against most Mistings/Ferrings will end up quickly for Scadrians. 

Yeah.  Stormlight is just too broad for a single metal user to do much against.  

Any surge that allows for easy CC against a non steel pusher is gg. 

[The Sibling she/her]

What about a twinborn against a first ideal edgedancer? Which combination could win?

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Yeah.  Stormlight is just too broad for a single metal user to do much against.  

Any surge that allows for easy CC against a non steel pusher is gg. 

Even setting aside the surges, the basic Stormlight package is nothing to sneeze at.  High-tier Healing and low-level endurance increase would let them win almost any fight that lasts long enough.  

1 minute ago, The Sibling said:

What about a twinborn against a first ideal edgedancer? Which combination could win?

The usual, I think: Bloodmaker or Speedster builds might have a chance but Radiant healing would let them outlast most of what any standard twinborn can pull off.  

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

18 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Even setting aside the surges, the basic Stormlight package is nothing to sneeze at.  High-tier Healing and low-level endurance increase would let them win almost any fight that lasts long enough.  

The usual, I think: Bloodmaker or Speedster builds might have a chance but Radiant healing would let them outlast most of what any standard twinborn can pull off.  

A huge nod to stormlight healing is important,  however I don't think 1st oath is nearly what we see most of those healing feats used at.  

I have a feeling that stormlight healing at 1st oath opens up a lot of 1 shot options for opponents to take advantage of.  

I would say a coinshot would have a good chance against a 1st oath of most orders. A face full of coins like we see Wayne eat in TLM would be far more than what 1st ideal healing would handle.  

That said.  Steel compounding is obvious.  

If you can get around the CC with speed then I would say F-steel A-chromium would make short work of all radiants at 1st heightening. 

They aren't efficient at using stormlight and have no 1 shot weapon.  

Pewter suffers from being grounded against high CC builds... but 1st ideal healing vs pewter? I would bet on pewter in the long run.  Healing with stormlight at lower oaths is just too slow and too inefficient. 

 

 

[Quantus he/him]

22 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

A huge nod to stormlight healing is important,  however I don't think 1st oath is nearly what we see most of those healing feats used at.  

I have a feeling that stormlight healing at 1st oath opens up a lot of 1 shot options for opponents to take advantage of.  

I would say a coinshot would have a good chance against a 1st oath of most orders. A face full of coins like we see Wayne eat in TLM would be far more than what 1st ideal healing would handle.  

That said.  Steel compounding is obvious.  

If you can get around the CC with speed then I would say F-steel A-chromium would make short work of all radiants at 1st heightening. 

They aren't efficient at using stormlight and have no 1 shot weapon.  

Pewter suffers from being grounded against high CC builds... but 1st ideal healing vs pewter? I would bet on pewter in the long run.  Healing with stormlight at lower oaths is just too slow and too inefficient. 

 

 

That's a fair point but I do think the 1st oath Radiant is pretty strong if we are assuming abundant Stormlight (which I was, I now realize).  Kaladin's our only good example of a 1st (since Shallan is weird) but he was typically limited by gems.  In most cases he just drained every gem nearby to barely survive and his slave buddies had to barter and trade for more (or wait for the next storm), but with stormlight available he could recover from a whole lot of damage, up to and including the full beating of a Highstorm.  And technically that happened before he'd spoke then First Ideal, so the scaling is admittedly a little weird to the Ideal level.   

[alder24]

49 minutes ago, The Sibling said:

What about a twinborn against a first ideal edgedancer? Which combination could win?

That opens many possibilities. No compounders!

There are a few Twinborns that could fight Edgedancers a bit. Coinshoters that can always be up in the air, mostly away from short range Edgedancer. Give him F-gold and that's an impressive duel. A-chromium + F-pewter can also do a lot here. Leeching Edgedancer's abrasion and progression, and providing a powerful punch to kill them. A-chromium is a very good choice in fights against all 1st Ideal Radiants. F-brass can be useful here, to burn all seeds and plants that Edgedancer can use as weapons. A-bendalloy can be nice too, mostly to avoid Edgedancer and drive them nuts. Combine these two together and you have a mini-Edgedancer - fast and untouchable. F-zinc is of course my personal favorite, useful in all situations - pair that with A-pewter and you have brain and brawn.

Of course, that goes without saying, F-steel is good with everything.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

That's a fair point but I do think the 1st oath Radiant is pretty strong if we are assuming abundant Stormlight (which I was, I now realize).  Kaladin's our only good example of a 1st (since Shallan is weird) but he was typically limited by gems.  In most cases he just drained every gem nearby to barely survive and his slave buddies had to barter and trade for more (or wait for the next storm), but with stormlight available he could recover from a whole lot of damage, up to and including the full beating of a Highstorm.  And technically that happened before he'd spoke then First Ideal, so the scaling is admittedly a little weird to the Ideal level.   

Kaladin survived a lot on the 1st ideal alone... but nothing that would have been debilitating.  If Kaladin had been fighting a thug in the arena and broken both of his legs I think the thug would have finished him off in the time it took him to heal back up.  That was at 2nd oath.  

There is a reason Brandon waited for 3rd ideal Shallan to get stabbed in the heart and 4th ideal to take an arrow through the brain.  

I think a crushed skull or broken legs would be too much for a 1st ideal to feasibly fight through.  Same said for a face full of steel pushed projectiles.  

 

Here is an interesting one... 

Kaladin at 1st ideal vs Melaan.   Poor kandra get left out so often.  

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

There is a reason Brandon waited for 3rd ideal Shallan to get stabbed in the heart and 4th ideal to take an arrow through the brain.  

Arrow was on the 3rd Ideal.

10 minutes ago, Quantus said:

  And technically that happened before he'd spoke then First Ideal, so the scaling is admittedly a little weird to the Ideal level.   

Was it before? I always thought that Kaladin said the Words (even not out loud) somewhere in the past, like Shallan, not after the Highstorm hanging. He already had a pretty solid bond with Syl, she was anchored to him, and Syl even said to him that she was there with him in Amaram's army. Plus there was no frost when Kaladin spoke Ideal with Teft (did he spoke that or only Teft told him?).

[Quantus he/him]

8 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Here is an interesting one... 

Kaladin at 1st ideal vs Melaan.   Poor kandra get left out so often.  

Assuming equivalent fighting skills, the Kandra wins unless Kaladin learns to target the Blessings. 

 

Just now, alder24 said:

Arrow was on the 3rd Ideal.

Was it before? I always thought that Kaladin said the Words (even not out loud) somewhere in the past, like Shallan, not after the Highstorm hanging. He already had a pretty solid bond with Syl, she was anchored to him, and Syl even said to him that she was there with him in Amaram's army. Plus there was no frost when Kaladin spoke Ideal with Teft (did he spoke that or only Teft told him?).

It was before, He'd been manifesting surges for a while and survived the Storm long before Teft taught him the actual words (WoK Ch. 35 vs 59 according to coppermind references).  I took it that he felt the Intent behind the words at the big moment at Honors Chasm, which put him in the Close state like in RoW before he actual spoke the words.  This WOB implies a lot of it was Timey-Whimey Jeremy-Beremy effects of the Spiritual Realm bond spilling backwards for the rest of it (including that line from Syl about the time at Amaram's army).  

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Why is Kaladin so proficient-- Like naturally born to wield a spear. Is that a weapon he likes or is it a destiny for him?

Brandon Sanderson

So destiny is a strong term... I would say he has natural aptitude, but no more so than a normal person who has a natural aptitude for something. But the way the Spiritual Realm works in the cosmere and the way Connection works, there were certain things that were happening to Kaladin before they happened...

It's like Syl says in one of the books. "You didn't know me then, but I knew you then. Even though we hadn't met yet, I still knew you." You see some weird Connection things too. And these are mostly just for fun sort of cosmere connections. Like when you see Syl take on the look of Shallan standing on the beach. There's gonna be a connection there. It's forming, it doesn't exist yet, but all things are one in the Spiritual Realm, and we're just kinda seeing echoes of that. It's not meant to be destiny, it's more meant to be, "Hey there's little connections happening".

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average professional sports player is naturally gifted in what they do.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Arrow was on the 3rd Ideal.

Okay I feel got. We all know I havent read that part yet.  I just thought I had read that she was shot through the eye slit of her shardplate for some reason. Either way, I think the healing at 1st and 2nd oaths would leave radiants significantly more vulnerable to 1 shots than at 3rd or 4th oaths.  

 

14 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Assuming equivalent fighting skills, the Kandra wins unless Kaladin learns to target the Blessings. 

Do you think targeting the blessings is even possible? They are underneath the skin and being held onto by the kandra plus they are highly invested objects anyway.  Highly invested inside of the body of an invested being. 

[Quantus he/him]

Just now, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think targeting the blessings is even possible? They are underneath the skin and being held onto by the kandra plus they are highly invested objects anyway.  Highly invested inside of the body of an invested being. 

Not my surges necessarily, but it's tactically their main vulnerability (aside from specialized attacks like acid).  Kandra can rearrange themselves to avoid damage, repair, and a few other surprising tricks with muscled density and senses and what not, all without requiring investiture to do it.  They're pretty close to a Fused in a lot of ways, which I think would take the average 1st oath radiant 8/10.  

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Okay I feel got. We all know I havent read that part yet.  I just thought I had read that she was shot through the eye slit of her shardplate for some reason. Either way, I think the healing at 1st and 2nd oaths would leave radiants significantly more vulnerable to 1 shots than at 3rd or 4th oaths.  

Aren't you on hundred or something chapter of OB? You read that one already. Kholinar. 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Aren't you on hundred or something chapter of OB? You read that one already. Kholinar. 

Dang it.  Maybe I did.  I don't even know.  I thought it was a later battle.  I haven't touched OB 7 months at least.  

My spoilered brain had read all about stormlight and shardplate and shardblades long before I ever read WoK even.  SA just isn't my normal style of fantasy for reading.  

Honestly I was purely happy with just Scadrial until a couple years ago when I first learned about Hoid.  Even then I only read about him and stumbled on the cosmere thanks to wanting to homebrew allomancy for D&D.  

Then I read about nightblood and breaths and shardblades.  I started WoK and after getting bored in the first few chapters decided to try out warbreaker (my current #1 favorite cosmere system).  After that I powered through WoK. I really enjoyed WoR and then Oathbringer made me want to give up on the cosmere cause it didn't seem worth it haha.  

Now I am getting through TLM and will likely power through the rest of SA just to be be done with it.  

I have such a sad issue with the fact that Nalthis #2 seems to be on the eternal back burner.  I was so hoping that was one of the secret projects.  Truth be told most of what motivates me to keep returning to SA is the promise of seeing some awakeners even if I don't get to see them do their thing and get a good POV from one. 

[Frustration]

59 minutes ago, Quantus said:

That's a fair point but I do think the 1st oath Radiant is pretty strong if we are assuming abundant Stormlight (which I was, I now realize).  Kaladin's our only good example of a 1st (since Shallan is weird) but he was typically limited by gems.  In most cases he just drained every gem nearby to barely survive and his slave buddies had to barter and trade for more (or wait for the next storm), but with stormlight available he could recover from a whole lot of damage, up to and including the full beating of a Highstorm.  And technically that happened before he'd spoke then First Ideal, so the scaling is admittedly a little weird to the Ideal level.   

Kaladin also only had chips, with a limited amount of marks. With larger gems you can easily multiply their stormlight supply by over 200

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Dang it.  Maybe I did.  I don't even know.  I thought it was a later battle.  I haven't touched OB 7 months at least.  

My spoilered brain had read all about stormlight and shardplate and shardblades long before I ever read WoK even.  SA just isn't my normal style of fantasy for reading.  

Honestly I was purely happy with just Scadrial until a couple years ago when I first learned about Hoid.  Even then I only read about him and stumbled on the cosmere thanks to wanting to homebrew allomancy for D&D.  

Then I read about nightblood and breaths and shardblades.  I started WoK and after getting bored in the first few chapters decided to try out warbreaker (my current #1 favorite cosmere system).  After that I powered through WoK. I really enjoyed WoR and then Oathbringer made me want to give up on the cosmere cause it didn't seem worth it haha.  

Now I am getting through TLM and will likely power through the rest of SA just to be be done with it.  

I have such a sad issue with the fact that Nalthis #2 seems to be on the eternal back burner.  I was so hoping that was one of the secret projects.  Truth be told most of what motivates me to keep returning to SA is the promise of seeing some awakeners even if I don't get to see them do their thing and get a good POV from one. 

Warbreaker is also my favorite book and Nalthis is also my favorite place. So colorful, breathtaking and endowing - even a dead one would rise to enjoy this place one more day  

If you read up to a 100-something chapter of OB, then there was an Awakener there! In Kholinar and later in a few chapters. Plus some interesting mentions of Nalthis in Shadesmar. In RoW there is even a fight with an Awakener, I think you already know about that. Keep reading, stuff is happening. Plus Nightblood is doing cool stuff in both books. 

Edit:

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Kaladin also only had chips, with a limited amount of marks. With larger gems you can easily multiply their stormlight supply by over 200

Yes, I think most problems with taking Kaladin as an example of Ideal 1 healing is that he suffers from a severe lack of spheres. In current times 1st Ideal Radiants would be novice squires with a decent supply of Stormlight and gems.

Edited May 5, 2023 by alder24

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Just now, alder24 said:

Warbreaker is also my favorite book and Nalthis is also my favorite place. So colorful, breathtaking and endowing - even a dead one would rise to enjoy this place one more day  

If you read up to a 100-something chapter of OB, then there was an Awakener there! In Kholinar and later in a few chapters. Plus some interesting mentions of Nalthis in Shadesmar. In RoW there is even a fight with an Awakener, I think you already know about that. Keep reading, stuff is happening. Plus Nightblood is doing cool stuff in both books.

Oh yeah.  Nightblood speaking to szeth the first time was such a great scene.  

I love seeing the awakeners in SA. I wish I could get PoV from vivenna and the cloak around the arm. 

Everytime Vasher makes a comment about colors and then curses Roshar for having none cracks me up.  Roshar might have a ton of light to help but it seems dreadfully bare and dull for someone with the 5th heightening. 

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Warbreaker is also my favorite book and Nalthis is also my favorite place. So colorful, breathtaking and endowing - even a dead one would rise to enjoy this place one more day  

Same!  Also Lightsong. 

And I'm told that getting her a copy of warbreaker was one of the reasons my wife dated and eventually married me.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Kaladin also only had chips, with a limited amount of marks. With larger gems you can easily multiply their stormlight supply by over 200

Quote

Edit:

Yes, I think most problems with taking Kaladin as an example of Ideal 1 healing is that he suffers from a severe lack of spheres. In current times 1st Ideal Radiants would be novice squires with a decent supply of Stormlight and gems.

How do squires you all think compare to a first Ideal, as a comparison?  We have a few more examples there at least.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Quantus

[alder24]

47 minutes ago, Quantus said:

How do squires you all think compare to a first Ideal, as a comparison?  We have a few more examples there at least.

Squires before swearing the 1st Ideal? Hard to say. Weaker? Or they can use Stormlight and Surgebinding because they are living with the 1st Ideal, even without saying it out loud, and that's enough (Eshonai swear her Ideal without saying any words out loud, as she was under water).

[therunner he/him]

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I would say a coinshot would have a good chance against a 1st oath of most orders. A face full of coins like we see Wayne eat in TLM would be far more than what 1st ideal healing would handle. 

Radiant healing primarily gets more efficient, and better at healing spiritual damage at higher Oaths.

At 2nd Oath, Kaladin healed broken legs after a fall (comparable to ones Miles) had fast enough no one basically noticed. It was not as fast as Miles, but he still healed multiple fractures around a second or so.

So Coinshot would have to try against even 1st Oath Radiant. By Order
 

• Windrunner far better mobility than Coinshot, and can use Reverse Lashing to protect against coins. Coinshot has next to no chance.
• Skybreaker again, far better mobility then Coinshot. Though no defense, and only offense is Lashed rocks + whatever weapons they have. Again Coinshot has little chance, but a bit better.
• Lightweaver, Coinshot has no idea where to shoot, while Lightweaver can sneak nearby and kill them.
• Elsecaller, hard to say, depends on how quickly they get access to Soulcasting, and how proficient are they.
• Edgedancer, any glancing hit is a miss thanks to Abrasion, mobility is about on par (Edgedancer far faster on ground, but Coinshot can jump if heavy metallic object is nearby). But if they had some seeds and used progression on them, that could let them make makeshift defense structures, and reduce option for Coinshot. Wood is sufficient to stop Coinshot, so grow some and use it for defense.
• Stoneward: With Cohesion and Tension they have basically lightweight steel armor on at all times, except made out of leather. Coinshot cannot penetrate that (they cannot get even through wooden shields). If they can use Stoneshaping, then Coinshot possibly loses anchors.

 

I think Coinshot would struggle to kill most 1st Oath Radiants, but on the other hand, most would struggle to get close enough to kill Coinshot. But all in all, I think 1st Oath radiant has advantage for about half of the orders. At the end of the day, single solid hits takes out Coinshot, but 1st Oath Radiant can take multiple and keep on going.

I would say the big question here is, how experienced are the Radiants? Because some Orders have all of their Surges available, and with higher Oaths get Blade, Plate, better spiritual healing, and greater efficiency with Stormlight. But they could still do everything else with Surges already at 1st Oath, only possibly lacking practice, because they are new to this.

So do we consider equal amount of experience? I.e. Coinshot has 5 years of practice, and 1st Oath Radiant also (only having been stuck at 1st Oath?).

[Duxredux he/him]

I'd vote MeLaan as taking out most 1st Order Radiants, especially if she's using her Aluminum True Body. Mostly because they wouldn't know how durable and dangerous she is and that they can't use methods to out Lightweavers on actual shapeshifters. Kaladin in particular would be really vulnerable in the first attack, because he knows exactly what should be a lethal hit, right up until MeLaan gets back up and stabs him with her Aluminum arm blade. Gravitation and Tension might give her trouble if they just toss her a couple miles away or bury her. I wasn't sure how a kandra would manage Division, but Division actually isn't accessible to any first Order Radiants. Both Dustbringers and Skybreakers gain access to Division later.

(Side note, it was probably quite deliberate on Brandon's part that the two Orders who turned Traitor were the two who had access to Division, which seems opposite Adhesion the Surge closest to Honor).

Seriously? OP, Ham vs Lift? It's a draw and they agree to go steal stuff. Ham wouldn't beat up a kid, especially if he didn't need to, and Lift is not a combatant. Have we seen her hurt, well, anyone? (not counting trying to bite Mraise) If it came to a fight, Lift would try to steal something Ham was guarding and then run and be incredibly difficult to catch, Ham would end up giving up until Lift snuck back and ate his lunch. So, from a certain perspective, Lift wins.

Now a Thug versus a Edgedancer, I'm not sure.

On 5/5/2023 at 10:20 AM, Frustration said:

The Edgedancer wins, in a very brutal fashion.

First they trip their opponent by slicking the ground, then they throw vinebud seeds on them and cause them to grow, the vines pin the pewterarm, while the buds dig into their flesh and bones, seeking nutrients.

Finally if it's taking too long, vines grow down their mouth and sufficate them.

Remind me. Have we seen Edgedancers use Progression at a distance? What level of control do they have over the things they grow? Can they really grow vines from seeds fast enough to overwhelm a uncooperative combatant flaring Pewter? Tripping with slick patches not withstanding, the Thug will be in motion and should just slide to the edge of the slicked patch. I'm not convinced.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Remind me. Have we seen Edgedancers use Progression at a distance?

Yes

2 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

What level of control do they have over the things they grow?

Perfect

3 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Can they really grow vines from seeds fast enough to overwhelm a uncooperative combatant flaring Pewter?

Probably.

3 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Tripping with slick patches not withstanding, the Thug will be in motion and should just slide to the edge of the slicked patch. I'm not convinced.

That still leaves them prone, and very disoriented.

 

All of this comes from WoR page 686.