9 Rosharan Secret Societies

[The Stick]

Brandon has said 9 secret societies operate on Roshar. I am trying to break down what they are.

Ones we definitely know about:

Ghostbloods 

Sons of Honor

Skybreakers

Diagram

Seventeenth Shard

 

Ones we probably know about:

Oldbloods: Sanderson says these are a bunch of people descended from ancient Alethic kings who still stick together.

Autonomy: Sanderson has said Autonomy has a presence on Roshar. It is almost inconceivable to think she has no presence on such a major planet.

 

Possibilities:

Silverlight?: Do Khriss and Nazh count. While it is likely they have presence on Roshar, this is not confirmed. However, we know from Hoid's letters that Silverlight Mercantile probably reaches Roshar.

I have no idea for the last one.

[Treamayne]

Sleepless?

[The Stick]

You might be right with the whole protecting the Dawnshards plotline.

[alder24]

Sleepless for sure. The next one are those that Teft's parents belong to (Envisagers).

Coppermind also mentions the Ire.

That's 8 organizations named. One more to go.

 

There is a Feruchemist not belonging to Ghostbloods, killed in RoW by Mraize (Gereh). There is also a Kandra on Roshar, not in service of Harmony. They might be part of another group.

Spoiler

starman2995

Who owned the red chicken, and what was its purpose?

Brandon Sanderson

The red chicken was owned by the Feruchemist who was keeping an eye on Dalinar in his house.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Nextorl

In The Lost Metal, MeLaan is said to be the first kandra Harmony sent off-world. Does that mean that the kandra on Roshar are not in Harmony's employment?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes! Good way to connect the dots. That is exactly what that means.

R'Shara

Brandon, you previously said the kandra on Roshar WAS an agent of Harmony.

Brandon Sanderson

Did I? *sounds uncertain* Well... I'm changing my mind. Yeah. No. I... uhh... Nope, not an agent of-

I know exactly who this kandra is and what they're doing and yeah. I'm going to say I don't know why I said that before, but now, no.

Footnote: R'Shara is referring to this WOB where Brandon says that the kandra is an agent of Sazed
YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

[StormingTexan]

Seems like Cultivation would have a secret society of minions as well. 

[cometaryorbit]

I don't think the Oldbloods are secret really.

Sleepless ... yeah definitely.

Envisagers - seems likely, though they may not be currently operating.

Ire - also likely, though it's not clear if they really operate on Roshar; one guy sitting in a lighthouse might not count.

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

The next one are those that Teft's parents belonged to (Envisagers).

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Envisagers - seems likely, though they may not be currently operating.

Aren't they related to the Sons of Honor? WoB:

Spoiler

Hessi's Ward

Were the Sons of Honor a splinter group of the Envisagers?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, but let's just say you have the relationship backward.

Would they be counted separately then?

[cometaryorbit]

I'd say they are different organizations even though they started as one.

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Aren't they related to the Sons of Honor? WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

Hessi's Ward

Were the Sons of Honor a splinter group of the Envisagers?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, but let's just say you have the relationship backward.

Would they be counted separately then?

They probably originated from Sons of Honor, but have different goals and methods so they split into 2 separate organizations.

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Ire - also likely, though it's not clear if they really operate on Roshar; one guy sitting in a lighthouse might not count.

On Coppermind presence of the Ire is sourced by RoW ch 87. Not the OB lighthouse Elantrian.

 

 

Now when I think about it, how about Worldsingers? They were founded by Hoid on Roshar and have several members, like Sizgil. There might be more of them, and aren't widely known. They might be the last group.

[+Oltux72]

• The Singer agents among the Parshendi
• Whoever Sixteen is a member of
• Whoever sent Azure
• possibly Ishar's secret service
• the people who smuggled in Odium's spren (like Ulim)

[Treamayne]

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

They probably originated from Sons of Honor, but have different goals and methods so they split into 2 separate organizations.

I'm not sure that a splinter group with few to no living members would count as a separate group

Quote

On Coppermind presence of the Ire is sourced by RoW ch 87. Not the OB lighthouse Elantrian.

I'm also not sure that merchants in Shadesmar would count as a secret society on Roshar's Physical Realm. It doesn't disprove it either, but there is still no evidence of them in the PR as yet, so i hesitate to classify it as one of the nine.

Quote

Now when I think about it, how about Worldsingers? They were founded by Hoid on Roshar and have several members, like Sizgil. There might be more of them, and aren't widely known. They might be the last group.

What makes you think they were founded on Roshar (Mistborn Spoilers)

Spoiler

Terris Worldbringers would indicate they were founded elsewhere long ago and influenced Scadrial before TLR's ascension. In fact, they may not have been founded by Hoid at all - he could have just been a member before the Shattering and is continuing the traditions.

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

the people who smuggled in Odium's spren (like Ulim)

Wasn't that the Sons of Honor trying to return the Desolations (via the Terriswoman working with Galavar on his journies to the Listeners).

Edited May 4, 2023 by Treamayne
Quote

[alder24]

34 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I'm not sure that a splinter group with few to no living members would count as a separate group

If they're alive and active, they are a separate group from the Sons of Honor. Different methods, different goals, different structures. And apparently Kaladin saw Envisagers in the storm, which I don't remember at all:

Spoiler

Hessi's Ward

Were the Sons of Honor a splinter group of the Envisagers?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, but let's just say you have the relationship backward.

Hessi's Ward

What about the Selay Envisagers Kaladin saw while flying with the storm?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

38 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I'm also not sure that merchants in Shadesmar would count as a secret society on Roshar's Physical Realm. It doesn't disprove it either, but there is still no evidence of them in the PR as yet, so i hesitate to classify it as one of the nine.

I don't think it matters if the society is in the Cognitive or Physical Realm. Both Riino and traveling merchants form Lasting Integrity indicate the presence of Ire on Roshar. Plus this WoB outright confirms their activity on Roshar:

Spoiler

Questioner

Why did the Elantrians came to Roshar in the first place? Because the question came up after I reread Elantris, so...

Brandon Sanderson

Are you talking about... specifically... the old ones? Yeah, why were they on Roshar? So, those specific individuals - the Ire, as we call them - are a group of Elantrians that are not representing all Elantrians. They were there. The one you've met is there for a specific reason. The Ire are involved there. They're mostly... where you've seen them, is on Scadrial so far, but they're interested in Roshar. You are talking about the lighthouse keeper, I assume? So, the lighthouse keeper, wouldn't... would be counted, I guess, as one of the Ire and is there for a specific purpose, but it is not related to their general purpose, that they're trying to achieve.

How's that for being vague? I'm sorry.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

55 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

What makes you think they were founded on Roshar (Mistborn Spoilers)

Ok, I’ve written it too hastily, but Hoid founded Worldsingers and they are not Worldbringers, but they have something in common.

Spoiler

Questioner

Did Hoid join the Worldsingers just to learn about Roshar’s stories? Or is there something more going on there?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid never joined the Worldsingers. (Can one join a group that one created, is the question there.)

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Worldbringers and Worldsingers, similar mission?

Brandon Sanderson

The similarity of the names is intentional.

Questioner

Similar origin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Did Hoid start them?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO. That's a RAFO, but definitely they have a similar origin.

Firefight San Francisco signing (Jan. 17, 2015)

Ghostbloods weren't founded on Roshar, yet they operate on Roshar. If Worldsingers weren't founded on Roshar but still have operating members there, they can still count here. Both Hoid and Sizgil are operating there and there are also other members there. However the question remains if they are a secret society. From Coppermind: "In 1170, Shallan Davar thought that there might be a Worldsinger at the Middlefest Fair sponsored by her family. She knew what Worldsingers were like and seemed to find their presence relatively commonplace, implying that the group had been active in Jah Keved for some time.^[3]" This suggests that they aren't secret but commonly known on Roshar.

 

[The Sibling]

Even if the Worldsingers were widely known they might have had secret goals and might have been doing stuff that the general public didn't know about. I have no reasoning to back this up other than the fact that they were founded by Hoid and he's usually up to something. I don't know if that would qualify them as a secret organisation or not, but I think that they are still a possibility. Sometimes WoBs are pretty vague so even though Brandon said there are nine secret societies maybe the Wolrdsingers could still count. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by The Sibling

[Treamayne]

47 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And apparently Kaladin saw Envisagers in the storm, which I don't remember at all:

I think the wording on that WoB Question is awkward:

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

Hessi's Ward

What about the Selay Envisagers Kaladin saw while flying with the storm?

 

 

Probably meant:

 

Quote

 

Hessi's Ward

What about the Selay people Kaladin saw while flying with the storm - were they Envisagers?

 

 

And, honestly, I can't find the passage they may be referencing. The closest I came to Kaladin seeing "Selay" in the storm-visions is this sentance in WoR Ch 32:

Spoiler

 A vast lake going dry ahead of his arrival, the water retreating into holes in the rock beneath.

The Selay peoples are descendants of the Sela Tales Silver Kingdom - what is currently the Pure Lake/Marabethia region. 

In the first Vision he saw Sesamalex Dar, but in neither vision did he focus on people (other than Szeth in the Tower) like Dalinar did in the RoW Storm Vision. 

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I think the wording on that WoB Question is awkward:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Probably meant:

 

 

And, honestly, I can't find the passage they may be referencing. The closest I came to Kaladin seeing "Selay" in the storm-visions is this sentance in WoR Ch 32:

  Hide contents

 A vast lake going dry ahead of his arrival, the water retreating into holes in the rock beneath.

The Selay peoples are descendants of the Sela Tales Silver Kingdom - what is currently the Pure Lake/Marabethia region. 

In the first Vision he saw Sesamalex Dar, but in neither vision did he focus on people (other than Szeth in the Tower) like Dalinar did in the RoW Storm Vision. 

Yeah, that might be the case, badly asked question. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by alder24

[RedBlue]

Quote

Aradel (paraphrased)

I asked Brandon just how many secret societies were on Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There are nine currently working.

Words of Radiance release party (March 3, 2014)

 

I assume this is the WOB being referred to?

It is notable that this is from 2014, Brandon was answering a question off the cuff, and what exactly constitutes a ‘secret society’ can be arguable in some cases.

TLDR: I don’t think we should take the number nine as gospel.

[alder24]

36 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

I assume this is the WOB being referred to?

It is notable that this is from 2014, Brandon was answering a question off the cuff, and what exactly constitutes a ‘secret society’ can be arguable in some cases.

TLDR: I don’t think we should take the number nine as gospel.

Yes, that's the WoB. It was during the release of WoR, that's why the number we're counting is valid for WoK/WoR, not RoW. In RoW the Sons of Honor and Diagram "stopped being active", Skybreaker and Sleepless "stopped being secret" (at least for important figures in the book), and Ghostbloods are targeted now.