Inquisitors and Spiritual Hemalurgy

[Trusk'our]

The Hemalurgy table says that it concerns itself with the creation of Steel Inquisitors, but it has Bindpoints located for the Spiritual quadrant.

Is this just to show a sample of where to expect certain Bindpoints for all Hemalurgic creations, or is it actually just for Inquisitors?

Because if it is just for Inquisitors, there are some interesting implications.

If Inquisitors actually used spiritual Hemalurgy on themselves, it would probably mean that the attributes granted by such spikes don't warp you into a Hemalurgic monstrosity, otherwise Inquisitors wouldn't be able to use them for obvious reasons. Perhaps it's like with Allomantic Savantism; only the physical metals have serious implications for one's physiology while others have little impact.

Do you guys think I'm reading too much into this and jumping to conclusions, or am I onto something?

Hemalurgy table link.

[Mistchemist16]

It is worth noting that duralumin was the only available spiritual metal that could be made into a useful spike: stealing Connection and Identity.  H-Aluminum just removes powers: the other two weren’t discovered. But I don’t believe Inquistors actually used H-Duralumin. Or at least not regular Inquistors. Maybe they did have those spikes in the Hemalurgic labs or experimental models of Inquistor

We also know some few Inquistors did have A-Duralumin, given using electrum spikes. 
 

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventy-Four

Allomantic Secrets

Some people have asked me why the Lord Ruler was so careful to keep secrets about Allomancy. What would it have mattered if he let out that there were atium Mistings?

Some of the secrets offered a sizable tactical advantage. Keeping back duralumin and aluminum gave him and his Inquisitors (the only ones told about those metals, other than a few select obligators) tools that nobody knew about. Very few Inquisitors could burn duralumin (and most who did it gained the ability through the use of spikes reused from previous, dead Inquisitors—and those spikes were therefore much weaker.). However, those who did have the power could appear inordinately skilled in Allomancy, enhancing the Lord Ruler's divine reputation.

Beyond that, knowledge is power. I believe that. And I think that if you're the Lord Ruler, you want to keep a few secrets about your magic system. Mistborn are very rare. Mistings among the nobility—particularly in the early centuries—were not rare. If they'd known about atium Mistings, it could have upset the balance by creating too many superwarriors.

Plus, if there are unknown superwarriors to be had, then you want to keep them for yourself.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (April 15, 2010)

If all else fails, it may just be leftover knowledge from Rashek’s time in the Well. He knew all of the metals, even if he couldn’t use them

Edited April 10 by Mistchemist16

[therunner]

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

The Hemalurgy table says that it concerns itself with the creation of Steel Inquisitors, but it has Bindpoints located for the Spiritual quadrant.

Is this just to show a sample of where to expect certain Bindpoints for all Hemalurgic creations, or is it actually just for Inquisitors?

I think it is human bind points in general, but it only shows those that would be possibly relevant in creation of Steel Inquisitor.
You don't have to use all of them, but any combination of them (though minimum is probably 8 + lynchpin) can be used.

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

If Inquisitors actually used spiritual Hemalurgy on themselves, it would probably mean that the attributes granted by such spikes don't warp you into a Hemalurgic monstrosity, otherwise Inquisitors wouldn't be able to use them for obvious reasons.

Why would you say that such spikes don't warp you into Hemalurgic monstrosity?
I don't see any reason for that.

Quote

Perhaps it's like with Allomantic Savantism; only the physical metals have serious implications for one's physiology while others have little impact.

Why are you saying other metals have little impact in savantism?
We know actual 'full' impact of only 3 metals (Tin, Pewter, Bronze) and have no information on the other. The impacts can be more on cognitive side of things for example, or such that within Scadrial 'Investiture-poor' ecology they won't get noticed (e.g. Bronze savant might have weakened life-sense compared to baseline humans, but they won't really notice because it is subconsious anyway).
To generalize that non-physical metals have little impact is a bold statement.

Edited April 11 by therunner

[Quantus]

I think it's more that the chart is the general Bind points for a Human Subject, as opposed to Hemalurgic Contstructs (which by definition have warped bodies and different/moved/warped bindpoints).  If a Human gets enough spikes to need a Lynchpin Spike, they can be called "Inquisitors" as we know it, though the argument could still me made that Inquisitor is an Organization term that died in Era1.  

[Trusk'our]

10 hours ago, therunner said:

Why would you say that such spikes don't warp you into Hemalurgic monstrosity?
I don't see any reason for that.

Why are you saying other metals have little impact in savantism?
We know actual 'full' impact of only 3 metals (Tin, Pewter, Bronze) and have no information on the other. The impacts can be more on cognitive side of things for example, or such that within Scadrial 'Investiture-poor' ecology they won't get noticed (e.g. Bronze savant might have weakened life-sense compared to baseline humans, but they won't really notice because it is subconsious anyway).
To generalize that non-physical metals have little impact is a bold statement.

heh, in hindsight, perhaps my assumptions were a bit bold.

In HoA the chapter 16 epigraph talks a little about Savants.

Quote

The Hero of Ages/Epigraphs - The Coppermind - 17th Shard

They are called Allomantic savants. Men or women who flare their metals so long, and so hard, that the constant influx of Allomantic power transforms their very physiology.

In most cases, with most metals, the effects of this are very slight. Bronze burners, for instance, often become bronze savants without knowing it. Their range is expanded from burning the metal so long. Becoming a pewter savant is dangerous, as it requires pushing the body so hard in a state where one cannot feel exhaustion or pain. Most accidentally kill themselves before the process is complete, and in my opinion, the benefit isn't worth the effort.

Tin savants, however . . . now, they are something special. Endowed with senses beyond what any normal Allomancer would need—or even want—they become slaves to what they touch, hear, see, smell, and taste. Yet, the abnormal power of these senses gives them a distinct, and interesting, advantage.

One could argue that, like an Inquisitor who has been transformed by a Hemalurgic spike, the Allomantic savant is no longer even human.

Tin and Pewter Allomancers who become Savants have pretty severe side effects, but the others don't have massive consequences from what we can tell.

I hypothesize that perhaps Spiritual Hemalurgic attributes work similarly; physical attributes like strength (i.e., Koloss) or senses would warp you a lot more than those that aren't physical, though perhaps mental attributes warp you a lot as well since they are tied to your brain's physical structure and therefore changes in one's spiritual aspect regarding them would have a larger impact similar to the physical attributes.

So maybe just Spiritual attributes would have less warping effect because they are less tied to one's physical aspect; Destiny, Connection, Identity, and Investiture don't tie much to your physical aspect from what I can tell.

[Mistchemist16]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Tin and Pewter Allomancers who become Savants have pretty severe side effects, but the others don't have massive consequences from what we can tell.

I hypothesize that perhaps Spiritual Hemalurgic attributes work similarly; physical attributes like strength (i.e., Koloss) or senses would warp you a lot more than those that aren't physical, though perhaps mental attributes warp you a lot as well since they are tied to your brain's physical structure and therefore changes in one's spiritual aspect regarding them would have a larger impact similar to the physical attributes.

So maybe just Spiritual attributes would have less warping effect because they are less tied to one's physical aspect; Destiny, Connection, Identity, and Investiture don't tie much to your physical aspect from what I can tell.

I don’t think this is the case anymore. Given the soft reticent on Savantism, I don’t think we’ll see anything like bronze, where you wouldn’t even know you’d become a Savant. You’d see more noticeable things, like Spook’s crazy senses or even Miles’s immunity to pain. Don’t know what that’d mean for Spirtual metals though, since we don’t have much data. But the consequences would definitely be visible, if not immediately obvious 

Brandon Sanderson

Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision.

Argent

Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around.

Brandon Sanderson

Evgeni,

So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.)

And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore.

So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.)

Feel free to share this.

Argent

Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance."

The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books.

Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon.
Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016)

Edited April 11 by Mistchemist16

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

So maybe just Spiritual attributes would have less warping effect because they are less tied to one's physical aspect; Destiny, Connection, Identity, and Investiture don't tie much to your physical aspect from what I can tell.

I think it might be the other way around. Imagine spiking yourself with a strong connection to Roshar, so your spirit believes you came from Roshar - and your body might change to look like Rosharan. Or with the identity of somebody else, and your body might change to look like that person, or worse, become a hybrid of both of you. These examples might be too severe for hemalurgic constructs to be true, they likely aren't, but messing with your spirit web is the best way to mess up your body, as your spirit web holds you spiritual ideal, to which your body is changing. Change your Connections, add a new one, or disrupt your identity, and you might end up with some disturbing changes to your body.

[Trusk'our]

1 hour ago, Mistchemist16 said:

I don’t think this is the case anymore. Given the soft reticent on Savantism, I don’t think we’ll see anything like bronze, where you wouldn’t even know you’d become a Savant. You’d see more noticeable things, like Spook’s crazy senses or even Miles’s immunity to pain. Don’t know what that’d mean for Spirtual metals though, since we don’t have much data. But the consequences would definitely be visible, if not immediately obvious 

Brandon Sanderson

Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision.

Argent

Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around.

Brandon Sanderson

Evgeni,

So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.)

And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore.

So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.)

Feel free to share this.

Argent

Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance."

The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books.

Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon.
Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016)

Hmmm, good point. I wonder what the consequences of Savantism for the other 14 Allomantic metals are then, since they aren't tied directly to the practitioner's body.

I don't know that this disproves my previous statement though; I suppose it would depend on how Savanthood in non-physical metals changes someone and to what extent (though of course, I could be climbing up the wrong tree entirely and Savantism and Hemalurgy aren't really closely related at all).

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I think it might be the other way around. Imagine spiking yourself with a strong connection to Roshar, so your spirit believes you came from Roshar - and your body might change to look like Rosharan. Or with the identity of somebody else, and your body might change to look like that person, or worse, become a hybrid of both of you.

That... actually sounds a lot less disturbing and a lot more useful than what we've seen with, say, Hemalurgic iron; changing your race or mimicking the appearance of a specific individual could be used as a convincing disguise or something along those lines- Hemalurgic iron just straight up turns you into a dull-witted monster that is in constant pain and that is doomed to die from heart failure.