Super kandra

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

If the kandra blessings are based off of stolen attributes and not powers then would a kandra spiked with lerasium blessings gain the benefits of all 4 of the other blessings together?  

Would burning a slight amount of the lerasium blessing spike turn the kandra into a mistborn? 

Would you be left with a slightly less stable kandra mistborn or would both spikes burn entirely leaving you with an insanely powerful mistborn mistwraith?  

Does the investiture trapped in a spike work the same way as metalminds in that it would be protected and simply more "compact" in the metal while burning the metal away leaving you with smaller spikes in volume but the same amount of power and investiture?  This would keep the same benefits of the spikes as well as whatever potential strength mistborn you could become with the amount of metal not filled with stolen spikes attribute. 

[alder24]

44 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If the kandra blessings are based off of stolen attributes and not powers then would a kandra spiked with lerasium blessings gain the benefits of all 4 of the other blessings together?  

Lerasium spike steals all attributes at once, so yes, making Blessing out of it would give Kandra not only attributes of all other Blessings combined, but all additional attributes that the victim had as well.

45 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Would burning a slight amount of the lerasium blessing spike turn the kandra into a mistborn? 

Kandra can burn Lerasium and gain Allomantic powers, but would Lerasium spike, charged with hemalurgic attributes, act the same way like regular Lerasium, or more similar to burning metalminds?

Spoiler

Jason Wright

If a kandra eats a bead of lerasium, can he burn it? Alternatively can he gain Allomancy via Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes on both counts.

Goodreads: Ask the Author Q&A (Aug. 13, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Maru Nui

What happens when you burn a Hemalurgic spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Burning a Hemalurgic spike would have the effect of splicing your spiritual DNA to that of the person's that is in the spike, which would have some very strange consequences.

Tor.com Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Jan. 10, 2011)

 

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would you be able to get any kind of additional power from burning a Hemalurgic spike?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There would be power there, but you wouldn’t be able to access it. Like burning someone else’s metalmind.

American Fork High School Signing (Dec. 12, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

If you burn a Hemalurgic spike, would it graft the piece of stolen soul onto your soul?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but it would have... There are some interesting effects there.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

Spoiler

RoboChrist

If you have a Hemalurgic spike made of atium, that grants atium Allomancy, could you use the spike itself as a source of atium to burn?

Brandon Sanderson

Briefly. 

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 30, 2018)

Different WoBs on this but it looks like you could partially burn it as a normal Lerasium. I think it would likely be similar to Miles burning partially filled metalminds, he can burn it as long as there is an attribute there and compound it, but after he burns the entire attribute away, he is left with regular gold. With Lerasium spike it would be the opposite, as long as the spike isn't fully charged with hemalurgic charge, you can burn some part of it like regular metal, but after that runs out, you will be burning metal with hemalurgic charge, which will have different effects.

Spoiler

yurisses

If Miles stored a very tiny bit of health into a gold bead and then burned it, what would happen? Would he see goldshadows for a time and then obtain Compounded health when reaching the charged part of the bead? Would the bead be evenly charged and deliver only health, no gold shadows, but at a very low rate since only little health was loaded in it? Would the bead be evenly charged and deliver only health, but at a standard rate the user would always get when compounding?

Brandon Sanderson

He'd hack the system to deliver health for a short time instead of doing what it was supposed to do, but only until the small portion of gold Invested with his Investiture ran out.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 4, 2015)

 

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Lerasium spike steals all attributes at once, so yes, making Blessing out of it would give Kandra not only attributes of all other Blessings combined, but all additional attributes that the victim had as well.

Kandra can burn Lerasium and gain Allomantic powers, but would Lerasium spike, charged with hemalurgic attributes, act the same way like regular Lerasium, or more similar to burning metalminds?

  Reveal hidden contents

Jason Wright

If a kandra eats a bead of lerasium, can he burn it? Alternatively can he gain Allomancy via Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes on both counts.

Goodreads: Ask the Author Q&A (Aug. 13, 2014)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Maru Nui

What happens when you burn a Hemalurgic spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Burning a Hemalurgic spike would have the effect of splicing your spiritual DNA to that of the person's that is in the spike, which would have some very strange consequences.

Tor.com Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Jan. 10, 2011)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would you be able to get any kind of additional power from burning a Hemalurgic spike?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There would be power there, but you wouldn’t be able to access it. Like burning someone else’s metalmind.

American Fork High School Signing (Dec. 12, 2019)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

If you burn a Hemalurgic spike, would it graft the piece of stolen soul onto your soul?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but it would have... There are some interesting effects there.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

RoboChrist

If you have a Hemalurgic spike made of atium, that grants atium Allomancy, could you use the spike itself as a source of atium to burn?

Brandon Sanderson

Briefly. 

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 30, 2018)

Different WoBs on this but it looks like you could partially burn it as a normal Lerasium. I think it would likely be similar to Miles burning partially filled metalminds, he can burn it as long as there is an attribute there and compound it, but after he burns the entire attribute away, he is left with regular gold. With Lerasium spike it would be the opposite, as long as the spike isn't fully charged with hemalurgic charge, you can burn some part of it like regular metal, but after that runs out, you will be burning metal with hemalurgic charge, which will have different effects.

  Reveal hidden contents

yurisses

If Miles stored a very tiny bit of health into a gold bead and then burned it, what would happen? Would he see goldshadows for a time and then obtain Compounded health when reaching the charged part of the bead? Would the bead be evenly charged and deliver only health, no gold shadows, but at a very low rate since only little health was loaded in it? Would the bead be evenly charged and deliver only health, but at a standard rate the user would always get when compounding?

Brandon Sanderson

He'd hack the system to deliver health for a short time instead of doing what it was supposed to do, but only until the small portion of gold Invested with his Investiture ran out.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 4, 2015)

 

 

What other attributes do you think there are?  

I am a believer that a tin spike would steal steel sight if obtained while a coinshot was burning the metal.  Or bronze while they were burning.  Or if they had breaths perhaps you would get lifesense etc.  

I know iron for physical prowess. Tin for senses. Zinc for the intelligence or wit.  Copper for the mental stability or whatever.  

I don't know if any of the spiritual metals would be transfered as an attribute would they?   

Would lerasium steal destiny, connection, identiy or whatever as well?  

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

What other attributes do you think there are?  

All of them. Likely all what Feruchemist can store (maybe without stuff like fortune or connection etc). Mental speed, physical speed, mass, health maybe etc. Hard to say but there is more than what 4 Blessings give.

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't know if any of the spiritual metals would be transfered as an attribute would they?   

Would lerasium steal destiny, connection, identiy or whatever as well?  

Possibly, hard to say.

We don't know much about Lerasium, and even less about it being a spike. So it's really hard to say what would happen. Hemalurgic table says "Lerasium steals all attributes", all not any, so it means it will steal every attribute that the victim has, whatever it might be.

Spoiler

Pagerunner

The Hemalurgy table, you wrote down "atium steals any power, lerasium is all abilities, nicrosil is Investiture"; what's the difference between those three?

Hemalurgic atium, lerasium, and nicrosil. What's powers, abilities, and Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

People are Invested in ways that do not give them active powers. So for instance, everyone on Nalthis is Invested. Everyone in the cosmere is, really. You want to steal their Investiture, but they don't have a power. You're still ripping off a piece of their soul. So there is a distinction between the actual Investiture that's in a human being and a specific power that they have.

So that distinction is pretty easy. You can also, with Hemalurgy, steal specific things. You can steal just general Investiture. You can steal, if you want--this is where the kandra Blessings come from. You can instead steal specific things that are not like stealing Allomancy. Stealing, for instance, someone's mental acuity.

Pagerunner

So abilities is like the half that's all the strength, speed, all that kind of stuff? Those are abilities, versus the Metallic Arts are all powers?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Pagerunner

Then Investiture, is that offworld magics?

Brandon Sanderson

No, no, it's the raw power.

Pagerunner

Nicrosil is their soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. A piece of their soul, essentially.

Pagerunner

So how would you go about stealing an offworld power?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to depend. A Breath, you would steal with nicrosil. It's general Investiture, is what you would probably going call that. You could forcibly remove someone's Breath from them. The ability to be a Sand Master you would steal with the power ability.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

All of them. Likely all what Feruchemist can store (maybe without stuff like fortune or connection etc). Mental speed, physical speed, mass, health maybe etc. Hard to say but there is more than what 4 Blessings give.

Possibly, hard to say.

We don't know much about Lerasium, and even less about it being a spike. So it's really hard to say what would happen. Hemalurgic table says "Lerasium steals all attributes", all not any, so it means it will steal every attribute that the victim has, whatever it might be.

  Hide contents

Pagerunner

The Hemalurgy table, you wrote down "atium steals any power, lerasium is all abilities, nicrosil is Investiture"; what's the difference between those three?

Hemalurgic atium, lerasium, and nicrosil. What's powers, abilities, and Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

People are Invested in ways that do not give them active powers. So for instance, everyone on Nalthis is Invested. Everyone in the cosmere is, really. You want to steal their Investiture, but they don't have a power. You're still ripping off a piece of their soul. So there is a distinction between the actual Investiture that's in a human being and a specific power that they have.

So that distinction is pretty easy. You can also, with Hemalurgy, steal specific things. You can steal just general Investiture. You can steal, if you want--this is where the kandra Blessings come from. You can instead steal specific things that are not like stealing Allomancy. Stealing, for instance, someone's mental acuity.

Pagerunner

So abilities is like the half that's all the strength, speed, all that kind of stuff? Those are abilities, versus the Metallic Arts are all powers?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Pagerunner

Then Investiture, is that offworld magics?

Brandon Sanderson

No, no, it's the raw power.

Pagerunner

Nicrosil is their soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. A piece of their soul, essentially.

Pagerunner

So how would you go about stealing an offworld power?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to depend. A Breath, you would steal with nicrosil. It's general Investiture, is what you would probably going call that. You could forcibly remove someone's Breath from them. The ability to be a Sand Master you would steal with the power ability.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

A kandra with 2 lerasium spikes would walk around at 500lbs with a toasty core body temp of 111 degrees Celsius?  Everyone moving at 25% normal speed? And every calorie consumed counts as 3?  

I mean I don't hate the idea.  I guess hemalurgic decay is a thing and the magic protects the user typically.  I never thought of it in terms of feruchemical attributes.  There is no spike we know of that can steel body heat is there?   I just assumed it would encompass any attribute that can be stolen from the table as it is.  

 

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

There is no spike we know of that can steel body heat is there?   I just assumed it would encompass any attribute that can be stolen from the table as it is.  

No, but ReLuur have Blessing made out of pewter, which steals Physical Feruchemical powers, but likely dosn't have them, so it looks like known metals can steal more things that the Hemalurgic table tells us.

[Trusk'our he/him]

16 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

A kandra with 2 lerasium spikes would walk around at 500lbs with a toasty core body temp of 111 degrees Celsius?  Everyone moving at 25% normal speed? And every calorie consumed counts as 3?  

I mean I don't hate the idea.  I guess hemalurgic decay is a thing and the magic protects the user typically.  I never thought of it in terms of feruchemical attributes.  There is no spike we know of that can steel body heat is there?   I just assumed it would encompass any attribute that can be stolen from the table as it is.  

 

Personally, I don't think that all Feruchemical attributes would be taken (and if they could it wouldn't be very effective; heat would disperse and return to normal quickly and calories and oxygen would do likewise).

I think that since Hemalurgy only deals with the spiritual realm, only Feruchemical attributes that get their power by diverting the flow of Investiture from the spiritual realm would be taken- warmth, energy, breath all have their fuel come from diverting the flow of Investiture from the physical realm and memories come from the cognitive realm, so those likely wouldn't be taken.

I imagine this is why when a Feruchemist fills Metalminds with these attributes they actually disappear entirely until tapped; they are less a natural state for the Feruchemist (such as how muscular they are) and more the state of their interaction with their environment. When attributes like strength and speed are stored though, the Feruchemist regains their normal state when they cease storing, even though they haven't yet drawn the lost attribute, as the flow of Investiture from the spiritual realm stops being diverted from the Feruchemist's own body.

However, physical strength, speed, senses, health, mental strength/speed/efficiency, emotional endurance, weight, Fortune, Identity, Connection, and Innate Investiture would almost certainly all be taken (in fact, I believe that H-iron already takes speed as well as strength since we see in WoA and HoA that Koloss and Kandra with the Blessing of Potency are described as being "inhumanly fast").

Basically, any Feruchemical attribute that relies on a flow of Investiture from the spiritual realm to fuel it should work, as the source is ripped off and stapled onto the bearer of the Hemalurgic spikes.

It may be worth noting though that Hemalurgic attributes and Feruchemical ones aren't one to one though (Hemalurgic strength is actually more similar to A-pewter than F-pewter, for example), so it's very possible (likely, even) be that a Lerasium spike isn't really like getting a constant shot of Feruchemical attributes, but something different entirely.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Quantus he/him]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Personally, I don't think that all Feruchemical attributes would be taken (and if they could it wouldn't be very effective; heat would disperse and return to normal quickly and calories and oxygen would do likewise).

I think that since Hemalurgy only deals with the spiritual realm, only Feruchemical attributes that get their power by diverting the flow of Investiture from the spiritual realm would be taken- warmth, energy, breath all have their fuel come from diverting the flow of Investiture from the physical realm and memories come from the cognitive realm, so those likely wouldn't be taken.

I imagine this is why when a Feruchemist fills Metalminds with these attributes they actually disappear entirely until tapped; they are less a natural state for the Feruchemist (such as how muscular they are) and more the state of their interaction with their environment. When attributes like strength and speed are stored though, the Feruchemist regains their normal state when they cease storing, even though they haven't yet drawn the lost attribute, as the flow of Investiture from the spiritual realm stops being diverted from the Feruchemist's own body.

However, physical strength, speed, senses, health, mental strength/speed/efficiency, emotional endurance, weight, Fortune, Identity, Connection, and Innate Investiture would almost certainly all be taken (in fact, I believe that H-iron already takes speed as well as strength since we see in WoA and HoA that Koloss and Kandra with the Blessing of Potency are described as being "inhumanly fast").

Basically, any Feruchemical attribute that relies on a flow of Investiture from the spiritual realm to fuel it should work, as the source is ripped off and stapled onto the bearer of the Hemalurgic spikes.

It may be worth noting though that Hemalurgic attributes and Feruchemical ones aren't one to one though (Hemalurgic strength is actually more similar to A-pewter than F-pewter, for example), so it's very possible (likely, even) be that a Lerasium spike isn't really like getting a constant shot of Feruchemical attributes, but something different entirely.

 

Nah. While some are certainly less useful than others, I really dont think they are going to just disperse. Because unlike Ferucemy they arent taking the actual Investiture, they are ripping off the Spiritweb chunk that drives and/or provides it.  Stealing Heat hemlurgically would be fantastic for all the Southern Scadrians that have a deficiency in that sector, because it wouldnt steal the Heat energy, it will steal the Higher/proper base level of body heat.  Same with Stealing a Memory with a Copper Spike, I dont know all it's function and limits but Im confident it will not be identical to the tap&store of a Coppermind; I strongly suspect it just gets added to your brain as a constant memory, rather than being stored & returned to the metal.  It's not dissimilar to how Nicrosil doesnt purely "Store Investiture", it stores the ability to use that investiture.  

 

But looking back at your post, Im confused because it seems like you agree with my impression at the end of your post but not at the beginning, so Im not sure Im getting the distinction you are trying to draw.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

 

Nah. While some are certainly less useful than others, I really dont think they are going to just disperse. Because unlike Ferucemy they arent taking the actual Investiture, they are ripping off the Spiritweb chunk that drives and/or provides it.  Stealing Heat hemlurgically would be fantastic for all the Southern Scadrians that have a deficiency in that sector, because it wouldnt steal the Heat energy, it will steal the Higher/proper base level of body heat.

I don't think that taking heat would work, since heat isn't something that is drawn from the SR, it's something that comes from the physical realm and therefore isn't something that Hemalurgy can grab.

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Same with Stealing a Memory with a Copper Spike, I dont know all it's function and limits but Im confident it will not be identical to the tap&store of a Coppermind; I strongly suspect it just gets added to your brain as a constant memory, rather than being stored & returned to the metal.  It's not dissimilar to how Nicrosil doesnt purely "Store Investiture", it stores the ability to use that investiture.  

I agree with this. I don't think that the actual memories will be taken by Hemalurgy, as those are in the CR, not the SR, and memory counts as an attribute in the Hemalurgy table.

Plus, Tensoon actually has mentioned in HoA that the Blessing of Potency (H-copper) has sharpened his memory. So your idea is correct.

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

But looking back at your post, Im confused because it seems like you agree with my impression at the end of your post but not at the beginning, so Im not sure Im getting the distinction you are trying to draw.  

Apologies, I can get a little difficult to understand when I cram every thought of mine into a single post, and I have a tendency to explore the ideas in question as I write 

I think that it could work in a few ways, but my current view is that you could not really take all Feruchemical attributes.

Hemalurgy is strictly SR based while Feruchemy has outliers in all three realms.

Plus, we've seen a few examples of how Hemalurgic, Feruchemical, and Allomantic enhancments differ; they are similar in many ways, but there are unique bits to each system; i.e., F-copper removes memories and can restore them later, but H-copper simply enhances natural memory.

A-pewter and H-iron are both magical enhancements to increase muscle power, but F-pewter actually increases muscle mass- but A-pewter also adds extra benefits while H-iron seems more limited in its scope (such as not providing significantly enhanced endurance).

F-chromium (Fortune) and H-chromium (Destiny) seem to be related... but are somehow not the same.

Basically, Feruchemical attributes aren't necessarily the same thing as Hemalurgic attributes, though they do share many similarities.

Does that clear things up, or did I just manage to pile more fuel onto the bonfire of confusion?

Edited March 28, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't think that taking heat would work, since heat isn't something that is drawn from the SR, it's something that comes from the physical realm and therefore isn't something that Hemalurgy can grab.

In the context of feruchemical Attributes everything is a SR thing, it all flows out from there and either does it's normal job or gets diverted into a Metalmind. Its the same reason Hemalurgy can Double your "strength" and your body will mutate the bones and muscles to adjust, I think Stealing body heat could make easily make you "run Hot" on a permanent basis, or at least replace the genetic Body Heat flaw in South Scadrians with a normal thermal system.

 

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Apologies, I can get a little difficult to understand when I cram every thought of mine into a single post, and I have a tendency to explore the ideas in question as I write 

I think that it could work in a few ways, but my current view is that you could not really take all Feruchemical attributes.

Hemalurgy is strictly SR based while Feruchemy has outliers in all three realms.

Plus, we've seen a few examples of how Hemalurgic, Feruchemical, and Allomantic enhancments differ; they are similar in many ways, but there are unique bits to each system; i.e., F-copper removes memories and can restore them later, but H-copper simply enhances natural memory.

A-pewter and H-iron are both magical enhancements to increase muscle power, but F-pewter actually increases muscle mass- but A-pewter also adds extra benefits while H-iron seems more limited in its scope (such as not providing significantly enhanced endurance).

F-chromium (Fortune) and H-chromium (Destiny) seem to be related... but are somehow not the same.

Basically, Feruchemical attributes aren't necessarily the same thing as Hemalurgic attributes, though they do share many similarities.

Does that clear things up, or did I just manage to pile more fuel onto the bonfire of confusion?

Ok, I think I understand you. I disagree with you, I think Attributes as a Cosmere term is consistently the same thing regardless of the magic system that is affecting them.  But I see what you are trying to say.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

In the context of feruchemical Attributes everything is a SR thing, it all flows out from there and either does it's normal job or gets diverted into a Metalmind.

I don't think that I agree with that conclusion, but I understand where you're coming from.

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Ok, I think I understand you. I disagree with you, I think Attributes as a Cosmere term is consistently the same thing regardless of the magic system that is affecting them.  But I see what you are trying to say.  

Glad I was able to speak coherently this time 

[cometaryorbit]

I don't think physical things in a normal human without Invested Arts acting on them are Spiritual based. I don't think Hemalurgic Iron takes away a natural flow of Investiture from the Spiritual Realm that's supporting the victim's strength and transfers it to the recipient.

I think Hemalurgy, instead, alters the spiritweb or Spiritual DNA - which is like the "description" of or "code for" a person on the Spiritual level. That change then cascades down and has Physical effects.

So I don't think some kind of energy flow has been transferred from four victims to a koloss. Instead, the "code" for being X strong is transferred - and hacking in four extra versions of that code in a violent way warps the spiritweb, kind of like extreme savantism, so a koloss isn't just "a 5x strong human". They get weird extra effects like turning blue, skin that doesn't match their size, and continuing to grow past human limits.

The koloss doesn't have to eat as many calories as you'd expect, so it presumably is getting some Spiritual boost. But I don't think the initial humans did. The change isn't that straightforward.