Theory: The Parshmen are NOT Voidbringers

[Vortaan]

The Parshendi "stopped fighting" and said something but they didn't abandon fight.

In general -- call me naive -- I don't see honorable behavior in the Parshendi. In the first place I don't see something honorable in assassination. And I'm pretty sure the Parshendi are the orderer of Szeth for killing Gavilar. While reading through this thread I wavered about this, but then I'd asked myself why the Parshendi should fight this war if they didn't cause for it. Why not try to convince Elhokar that they did not order the assassination of his father? Only because of the gemhearts? I can't believe that.

And at last: I think that the Parshendi are part of the Voidbringers but (actually) not the Parshmen. If Jasnah expects being the Parshmen Voidbringers, why return to the Shattered Plains (when I remember right, this is her intention after revealing her theory) and not share her wisdom with Dalinar via Spanreed (or even give him a hint) while trying to tell or at least warn Taravangian that there is a potential endangerment all around? (okay, have to admit that there may be reasons not to do this)

We assume Galivar was the victim. What if he was the aggressor? Creepy sphere with black voidy light lends credence to the theory that he may have been up to shenanigans.

[Thought]

And I'm pretty sure the Parshendi are the orderer of Szeth for killing Gavilar. While reading through this thread I wavered about this, but then I'd asked myself why the Parshendi should fight this war if they didn't cause for it.

Because they've been horribly, horribly offended by the accusation and are fighting to restore honor? Because there was another assassination that we didn't see which set the Parshendi off? Because a highly important figure is being held with the war as ransom? Because of a better reason that Sanderson hasn't revealed yet?

[Windrunner]

I'll say that the Parshendi's motivation for the assassination of Gavilar is, in part at least, revealed in his two readings, a bit in both. If you guys had already heard, my apologies, but it seems like this debate wouldn't be happening if you had.

[Meg]

I'll say that the Parshendi's motivation for the assassination of Gavilar is, in part at least, revealed in his two readings, a bit in both. If you guys had already heard, my apologies, but it seems like this debate wouldn't be happening if you had.

I would like to make it clear that I made up my upper postings without having an awareness of the content given from the readings (this if nothing else, because I hadn't found the topic about the first reading which I was searching for in this part of the forum :/). Because of his posting I asked him and he gave me the link for the transcription of the first parshendi reading. (And now I kind of feel vindicated.)

[Observer]

Returning to the last page, it seems the Shin know an awful lot about the voidbringers that they shouldn't. Who taught them all that?

Theory: The Shin are housing either Heralds or some Shardic site of importance that has led to them knowing stuff.

Slightly less exciting, a Worldsinger could have told them...

[Voidus]

i don't know about them knowing that much about the Voidbringers, the only demonstration I can think of sounded like just another piece of folklore about them.

[Nepene]

Returning to the last page, it seems the Shin know an awful lot about the voidbringers that they shouldn't. Who taught them all that?

Theory: The Shin are housing either Heralds or some Shardic site of importance that has led to them knowing stuff.

Slightly less exciting, a Worldsinger could have told them...

The Sunmaker reportedly changed Vorin theology. Maybe Shin theology (including some interesting stuff from shards) hasn't been changed and so they know the true reality of the world.

[11thorderknight]

Umm.....I'm pretty sure that whatever mysteries the Shin are hiding, knowledge of the voidbringers is not among them. Remember Szeth's POV in the intro regarding the voidbringers: "But then, did they even exist? His punishment declared that they didn't. His honor demanded that they did."

He was punished by the Stone Shamans or other leaders of his people....so, hard to believe that they know much about the voidbringers if they think they don't exist.

[Observer]

"His punishment declared that they didn't. His honor demanded that they did."

That is a very wierd sentence. Any idea what exactly Szeth means by it?

[Nepene]

"His punishment declared that they didn't. His honor demanded that they did."

That is a very wierd sentence. Any idea what exactly Szeth means by it?

He likely discovered some indirect evidence of Voidbringers (such as the dark sphere he mentioned) and for whatever reason the Stone Shamans believe they shouldn't exist. He swore on his honor that they did and may have magically sworn they did. He was thus punished to violate the traditions of his people and murder people.

[happyman]

He likely discovered some indirect evidence of Voidbringers (such as the dark sphere he mentioned) and for whatever reason the Stone Shamans believe they shouldn't exist. He swore on his honor that they did and may have magically sworn they did. He was thus punished to violate the traditions of his people and murder people.

This is the best I've been able to come up with as well, but the sheer number of holes in that theory makes me suspect there is a lot more going on than we have been privy to.

Basically, every time I theorize about this, I come up with "Insufficient data." So I leave it at that.

[Nepene]

This is the best I've been able to come up with as well, but the sheer number of holes in that theory makes me suspect there is a lot more going on than we have been privy to.

Basically, every time I theorize about this, I come up with "Insufficient data." So I leave it at that.

Yes, I agree, we do not have anything more than a vague outline as of now. We don't even have enough data to make a wild guess with any accuracy. And the next book is about Dalinar and Shallan so I doubt we'll be learning that much more about Szeth, though no doubt there will be more hints. He's for the future.

[lDanielHolm]

You mean the flashback sequence is about Shallan. (It was either Dalinar or Shallan, and he chose the latter.) The book won't just be about her, though. While we may not get the juice of a Szeth-flashback sequence, I'm sure we will still get points-of-view from him.

[Nepene]

You mean the flashback sequence is about Shallan. (It was either Dalinar or Shallan, and he chose the latter.) The book won't just be about her, though. While we may not get the juice of a Szeth-flashback sequence, I'm sure we will still get points-of-view from him.

http://brandonsanderson.com/blog/925/

Now on to Stormlight Two. (The title was originally Highprince of War, but I'm feeling in my outlining that this book needs to be weighted more toward Shallan, so a different title is likely).

The general implication is that these two will be getting more screen time. Dalinar was supposed to get the most screen time by plot but Shallan managed to win out later by character force.

I agree that we will get points of view, but they will probably just offer tantalizing hints and glimpses of the truth, not anything direct.

[Elwynn]

http://brandonsanderson.com/blog/925/

The general implication is that these two will be getting more screen time. Dalinar was supposed to get the most screen time by plot but Shallan managed to win out later by character force.

I agree that we will get points of view, but they will probably just offer tantalizing hints and glimpses of the truth, not anything direct.

LOL

You realize that blog post was from over 2 years ago right? And that he has commented on switching it from 'Dalinar's book' to 'Shallan's book' several times now, and given the reasons why? One of them being BS 'itching to tell her story.'

Doesn't mean the amount we get from anyone else will change. BS said that the viewpoints of focus and how it balances out will be almost the same as the first book. With a bit more Navani and some Parshendi interludes.

So we will get just about the same amount of everyone, but it will seem like more Shallan because of her flashbacks. That's why BS refers to it as 'Shallan's book.' Whoever gets the flashbacks gets the designation of the book.

[Voidus]

Well Szeth should be arriving at around the same time as Shallan and trying to kill Dalinar so there's plenty of potential for more from either of their POV's on Szeth, and I suppose Kaladin as well if he gets much.

[Observer]

I've always wondered if soulcasting worked on a loaded Windrunner. I imagine that a fully-stormed up Szeth would be resistant, but if he ever ran out of Stormlight, Jasnah would blast him into a puff of smoke. Still, he's a potential plot option that can kill a lot of people at any time just as everybody thinks things are going well. Not good.

[Meg]

He likely discovered some indirect evidence of Voidbringers (such as the dark sphere he mentioned) and for whatever reason the Stone Shamans believe they shouldn't exist. He swore on his honor that they did and may have magically sworn they did. He was thus punished to violate the traditions of his people and murder people.

Did not Gavilar hand out the "dark sphere" to Szeth to keep an eye on it? This event sure had been at a later time than Szeth's punishment?

Or do you mean another dark sphere? I'm worried :-).

[lDanielHolm]

Did not Gavilar hand out the "dark sphere" to Szeth to keep an eye on it? This event sure had been at a later time than Szeth's punishment?

Or do you mean another dark sphere? I'm worried :-).

I think Nepene meant something else (but like the black sphere) which is indirect evidence of the Voidbringers.

[name_here]

I've always wondered if soulcasting worked on a loaded Windrunner. I imagine that a fully-stormed up Szeth would be resistant, but if he ever ran out of Stormlight, Jasnah would blast him into a puff of smoke. Still, he's a potential plot option that can kill a lot of people at any time just as everybody thinks things are going well. Not good.

I imagine that if Jasnah's first attempt fails, she's bright enough to turn the air around him into rock or fire instead of trying another direct Soulcasting.

[+Child of Hodor]

I think the Parshendi/Parshmen are Odium's attempt to create human life on Damnation, the Shinovar are Cultivation's attempt on Roshar and the Alethi are descended from the people that Honor created on his world the Tranquiline Halls.

The shardbearers seem to be members of a human civilization that became gods and set out amongst the Cosmere. In BS's books the shards we know of seem to have attempted to create intelligent lifeforms that closely resemble humans. There are usually small differences due to the Shards having to alter the lifeforms so that they can survive the unique environment on whatever world the Shard settled on. The three Shards in TWoK each had their own world and I think they all took a crack at recreating humanity and the Shinovar, Parshendi and Alethi (along with other people of the Silver Kingdoms) are the result.

The Shinovar culture seems to fit with Cultivation i.e. nuturing and growing things. They revere farmers and disdain soldiers and anyone with a weapon. They also live in an area that blocks the High Storms and the High Storms carry Stormlight which is closely associated with Honor. So I think the Shin are Cultivation's creation.

The Parshendi are remnnants of Odium's invading force from previous desolations. Whether they are the Voidbringers or not might be beside the point.

I think the Void in Voidbringer refers to the Chasms. I think the Parshendi or other forces under Odium's influence create armies of Thunderclasts out of stone and by bringing the stones to life these giant voids are created in the land.

It's also possible that Odium is the true Voidbringer and the name has been applied to his creations.(Elantris spoilers):

Odium went to Sel and shattered the two Shards there about 10 years before the book Elantris began. At the same time the magic of the city of Elantris was disrupted/blocked when a giant chasm formed and blocked the flow of magical energy.

Odium was likely behind this, whether he created monsters out of rock or created the Chasm another way he seems to be the Voidbringer.

Jasnah can't see the full picture because she does not understand the importance of Honor and Odium. The Parshendi may be relatively harmless without Odium's direct influence.

[dj26792]

Thats all very clever and thought out but because of some Word of Brandon stuff also probably wrong.

For example we know that

Odium had been and left much much longer ago than 10 years before Elantris and was not directly responsible for the rheod.

You're understanding of the origins of the shardbearers is actually pretty reasonable but as far as I know most of the people of their planet died and only 16 of them picked up pieces of the thing that was before the shards which is known as Adonalsium (There's also debate over the exact nature of Adonalsium).

Also, I suggest looking up the readings of SA2 because one of them discusses the Parshendi in ways that influenced many opinions on them.

And some food for thought, the highstorms carry Stormlight, which you assume is Honours... they also carry Crem which is very cultivation.

All that said, it is very good to see you thinking and having ago, thats a much better theory than some I came up with but didn't have the confidence to post when I was new to the cosmere, and it does take a long time to get a handle on all the different sources of information out there.

[Broudon]

So, Recently skimmed through this forum post because i too am torn on wether or not the parsh are void bringers and i had a thought while i was reading the infamous quote

 

"Above the final void I hang, friends behind, friends before. The feast I must drink clings to their faces, and the words I must speak spark in my mind. The old oaths will be spoken anew.
-Dated Batabanan, 1173, 45 seconds pre-death. Subject: A light eyed child of five years. Dictation improved remarkably when giving sample."

 

So there is a lot here given from brandon and it occurred to me that size does matter. "above the final void I hang". interesting choice of words when your leaping on a very large rock formation that is very out of place and seems to have distinct attributes like mounds all over it and it is ridiculously large. It is also intentionally misleading you could also take it to mean he is hanging over the parshendi (voidbringers). But i think that is a feint because it more clearly defines the parshendi as friends. Friends behind ( the aelethi) and freinds before ( the parshendi). what if, and i am just throwing this out there, what if the tower itself is the last voidbringer left. Just dormant and waiting. maybe the shin beleive that they won the last desolation and that all the voidbringers were wiped out and that is why their culture is so anti violence because they accepted what the heralds said and are refusing to be violent in anyway to their once staunch allies against the forces of desolation. wich would explain their culture. Szeth saying that the desolations are not over and that voidbringsers still exist would imply that they need to be preparing for war instead of holding farming in high regard.

I think brandon is using the parshendi and parshmen as a scapegoat and misleading us to thinking they may be a threat when i think that from the fruits of their labor you can see that niether parshmen nor parshendi have genuine ill will toward anyone kaladin is upset because they have more honor that most alethi he encounters.

 

P.S

I mean shards do cut rock and all...

It has been established that odium uses stone monsters like thunderclasts why would voidbringers be that much diferent.

 

Another note on parsh hatred of tampering with the dead may stem from odium using fallen parsh as undead or something in the desolations that could be why they get so upset when some one touches their dead. I am working a lot on the fact that shard blades cut only rock and dead flesh and it seems to be profain to use it against the living. Remember Szeth who seems to know the most about stuff in general says this "But when weapons created to fight nightmares were turned against common soldiers, the lives of men became cheap indeed".this implies that odiums forces are not going to be regular living breathing armies but something much more terrible.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Broudon

[TwistedMisting]

Whether or not the parshmen are the voidbringers remains to be seen I guess, Having read the Eshonai excerpts, I'm inclined to believe that they are, or are at least linked to the voidbringers.

 

SPOILERS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The excerpt mentions the parshmen's 'terrible' gods. I also got the impression that they were worried that something Gavilar planned would unleash those gods, and that's why they killed him. So one possibility is that the voidbringers are the gods of the parshendi, and that they somehow force/control them to turn them against mankind.

 

The other possibility (in my mind) relates to their search for different 'forms'. It could be that one of these forgotten forms is in fact what became known to humans as the voidbringers. So, in their warform/slaveform/mating form etc they are relatively harmless, but perhaps one of the other forms they become dangerous and inflamed with hatred. One of the epigraphs mentions something about them suddenly turning violent, like a sudden storm on a calm day (sorry haven't got my copy with me, so I can't quote exactly) and this would appear to back that idea up.

 

Anyway, those are my rambling thoughts on the voidbringers.

 

Sorry, I haven't figured out how to hide spoilers.

Edited July 27, 2013 by TwistedMisting

[Broudon]

wow awesome thanks for that. I think my theory could still apply but i would toss out the undead idea at this point. I would say that with the new information i would not want a parshendi to get its hand on a hate sprin. storm form implys that they may be voidbringers but it is not conclusive. although the bumps are likley just parts of the city.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Broudon