Kandra + Gold Compounding = OP

[Mistchemist16]

The more I think about it, the more I realize Cosmere healing and kandras are a match made in heaven. The former can be shaped to at least some extent by how one perceives themself. The latter are far more inclined than any human to think of helpful objects as their body and store the results.They even call their artificial bones True Bodies. And that makes them very useful with the right setup

Take Gold compounding, for instance. Spike a kandra with those abilities, then give them a True Body made of gold. Once they get used to it, they can then duplicate any material used in that True Body. On Scadrial, they could generate infinite Allomantic metals, even the rare ones. If they had Mistborn powers on top of that, then infinite duralumin. After all, they don’t get hurt because of healing and can easily replenish with duralumin time bubble. On top of that, a Kandra Fullborn is probably the most powerful non-Shard entity in the Cosmere. Such a being could have all of their Feruchemical attributes up to x100 forever, including whatever other magic systems they find.

On top of that, it should also be possible to duplicate Invested objects. Even a human could theoretically do that.

HazelCharm47

Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy.

Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity.

However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place.

If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess

Brandon Sanderson

I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike.

Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic.

Hope that's a little more clear.

That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn.

HazelCharm47

As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways

WoB #1:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434

This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal.

WoB #2:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983

This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one!

WoB #3:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him.

WoB #4:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435

Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out.

I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 6, 2020)

What makes kandra even better for this purpose is that a Gold compounding kandra wouldn’t need to worry about running out of gold to fuel these stunts and would be more likely to see those objects as part of themselves anyway. Then, the possibilites are basically endless. You could duplicate Hemalurgic spikes, Awakened objects, fabrials, white sand, Shardblades, the list goes on. As long as a Shard doesn’t take issue with this (and assuming Preservation can be tricked into making other Investiture.), you can do nearly anything, even accounting for the fact that you would quickly hit a limit with Invested objects.

It would take some setting up, but the results are truly amazing. 
 

Edit: To clarify, we have reason to believe from the WoB about Miles that Compounding could duplicate Metallic Arts invested objects, but it may not do the same for other Investiture. Nevertheless, respawning metalminds and spikes is still useful

Edited February 7, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[Frustration]

You can't make invested objects using different types of Investiture without a lot of hacks. Like you can't soulcast a bunch of Lerasium.

I also doubt that you could heal Kandra bones as they aren't a part of their souls.

[Tglassy]

I am highly doubtful that a Kandra could grow gold, or any other kind of Truebody, using Healing.  That sounds awfully dubious to me.  I mean, when people picture themselves, when they picture their True, Perfected Selves, they usually picture them with clothes on, and yet healing doesn't grow your clothes.  That's all a Truebody is.  It's clothing.  Only, worn inside.  

So I'm pretty sure all of that doesn't work.  

[alder24]

Kandra doesn't need bones. They wear them. They "true" form is the boneless goo of muscles. They can take any form they want, by using any bones they have, so I don't think bones are perceived by them as a part of them. And to add more, the spiritual ideal image of Kandra would not have bones as part of them, because of this. I don't see them growing gold, because healing speeds up your natural repair processes of your body. Gold can't be made by your body. And that’s what kandra are also doing, they grow new tissue.

I think Kandra would have a lot of uses for feruchemical bendalloy, that stores energy, with it they can grow new muscles and body extremely fast.

[Mistchemist16]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Kandra doesn't need bones. They wear them. They "true" form is the boneless goo of muscles. They can take any form they want, by using any bones they have, so I don't think bones are perceived by them as a part of them. And to add more, the spiritual ideal image of Kandra would not have bones as part of them, because of this. I don't see them growing gold, because healing speeds up your natural repair processes of your body. Gold can't be made by your body. And that’s what kandra are also doing, they grow new tissue.

I think Kandra would have a lot of uses for feruchemical bendalloy, that stores energy, with it they can grow new muscles and body extremely fast.

1. I don’t see why a kandra’s awareness of their shapechanging would be problematic. I could easily see a case where a kandra uses a specific body as a “default” for so long that they accept it as real. That being said, actively changing shape could mess up the process because they would rearrange their muscles and nerves, providing new sensation

2. Seeing these comments, I think I made one particular mistake regarding healing. I think the cognitive aspect revolves more around blocking access to certain injuries than outright adding new thing. Similarly, the WoB I used was more about duplicating an ability, not matter.  I guess you could use Forgery or even aluminum tricks to fix the spirit. But at that point, the hack becomes far less practical. 

3. I’m not sure I agree with your assessment of healing. While it’s true in most cases, there must be some level of Investiture to mass conversion. If you can justify mass conversion under the Spiritual and/or Congitive aspect to accept metal, than there’s no reason you couldn’t grow metal

4. Bendalloy is actually a really good idea for Kandras

Edited February 7, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

3. I’m not sure I agree with your assessment of healing. While it’s true in most cases, there must be some level of Investiture to mass conversion. If you can justify mass conversion under the Spiritual and/or Congitive aspect to accept metal, than there’s no reason you couldn’t grow metal

It is. Investiture is being used to provide matter for new tissue that is being rebuilt by your body. But it's still your body that is doing the regrowing. In normal circumstances your body can't regrow a cut arm, but it can grow bone tissue, blood vessels, nerves, muscles, skin and every component of the arm, but not on that scale - healing by investiture provides the energy and "cells" for regrowing everything, but it’s using mechanisms of the body. But that's all because we're talking about feruchemical healing, which stores in gold your body's ability to heal. So these mechanisms are stored there, and that's why I think there would be limitations. You can't grow metal, because your body doesn't do that.

12 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

1. I don’t see why a kandra’s awareness of their shapechanging would be problematic. I could easily see a case where a kandra uses a specific body as a “default” for so long that they accept it as real. That being said, actively changing shape could mess up the process because they would rearrange their muscles and nerves, providing new sensation

It might mess things up because they don't view themselves as someone with a particular body, shape or bones. They are always changing and shifting as they want. That's their nature. So it might be hard for them to perceive one of the many forms they can take as the “true one” even after many years in that body.

[kenod]

On 7-2-2023 at 9:26 PM, Mistchemist16 said:

2. Seeing these comments, I think I made one particular mistake regarding healing. I think the cognitive aspect revolves more around blocking access to certain injuries than outright adding new thing. Similarly, the WoB I used was more about duplicating an ability, not matter.  I guess you could use Forgery or even aluminum tricks to fix the spirit. But at that point, the hack becomes far less practical. 

It really depends. It likely wouldn't be able to add new abilities, but the form your body is healed towards can be influenced, not just by blocking certain injuries from getting healed. For example, a trans person would find their body slowly changing to conform to their gender identity, because that's their mental self image, and what the healing would move their body towards. Someone could in theory even use self-hypnosis to alter their cognitive image to utilize Investure healing to alter their appearance.

[cometaryorbit]

*Some* Cognitive effects other than blocking healing particular injuries are possible, but I do think it's pretty limited without other magic besides the healing.

Miles saw himself as godlike, but he didn't heal into having superpowers. TLR not only saw himself as being godlike but had nearly everyone else in the world believing it too, but he still needed the atium compounding not to age. So at the very least, I don't think healing can just add/change arbitrary things. There might need to be a template/idea/Form of what you are becoming in the Spiritual Realm, or a Connection, or something.

I'm not sure if self hypnosis would work. Depends if you can "trick" your own cognitive aspect or not.

It can clearly change over time due to personal growth, but I think there's a philosophical question there - are you growing into something that you always had the potential to be? If so, there might be a limited set of possibilities that are "valid" for any particular individual, and only those possibilities would be accessible regardless of what tools (eg self-hypnosis) were used.

Now, if you can directly change your Spiritual without relying on healing to work through the Cognitive, then I think almost anything becomes possible. Sazed/Harmony could fix "unhealable" injuries like Cett's legs or Terris eunuchs.

[Mistchemist16]

On 2/17/2023 at 2:48 PM, cometaryorbit said:

*Some* Cognitive effects other than blocking healing particular injuries are possible, but I do think it's pretty limited without other magic besides the healing.

Miles saw himself as godlike, but he didn't heal into having superpowers. TLR not only saw himself as being godlike but had nearly everyone else in the world believing it too, but he still needed the atium compounding not to age. So at the very least, I don't think healing can just add/change arbitrary things. There might need to be a template/idea/Form of what you are becoming in the Spiritual Realm, or a Connection, or something.

I’m going to have to object to your terminology. Simply thinking of yourself as like a god wouldn’t fit even under my proposal. You’d need the idea of a specific body change at minimum. Miles would not get random superpowers or even something like a pewter enhanced body. But if we take the transgender example, we’re talking about a clear idea of what would change and something relatively close to what a human can naturally be. It’s also worth noting that even if the spiritual template of a human is androgynous, you’d probably still need to add some features, albeit ones that are humanly possible and not artificial.

You could make a more compelling argument that you can’t add new materials. However, Brandon does touch upon the topic when he mentions the Ship of Theseus. It’s basically a philosophical wuestion: if I replace every individual piece of a ship, is it the same ship as it was before replacement?

Oversleep

I have a philosophy question that could actually be answered in cosmere:

Ship of Theseus in cosmere. If I went and replaced every part of the ship, would it still - Cognitively - be the same thing?

What if I replaced everything and made a second ship out of the parts from the first one? What could somebody watching all of that from Shadesmar tell me?

Brandon Sanderson

You're right, part of the design of the cosmere (which has some deep roots in classical philosophy) was an attempt to answer the Ship of Theseus question.

In the cosmere, part of the Cognitive--and even spiritual--aspect of a thing (particularly if it isn't sentient) is delineated by the way that thinking beings define it. Per the old joke about the axe, if you replace your axe head and think of the new axe as "Your Axe," then the cognitive and spiritual aspects of that thing will grow to reflect that.

If you replaced every part of your ship, and gave the sailors time to sail it, thinking of it as the same ship--it would become the same ship.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 9, 2017)

Theoretically, a body could accept the new parts, especially for a kandra. They’d just need consistent time to “sail” the new body. But it isn’t impossible that gold simply heals your natural body. I just think it’s more a problem of mindset and anyone actually trying it.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[Elder]

Is Health even a part of Kandra life?  Do they have “Health” to store?  I’m not certain if Health is a relevant concept in their lives…. I mean would they get sick when they store health?  Can they get sick?

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Elder said:

Is Health even a part of Kandra life?  Do they have “Health” to store?  I’m not certain if Health is a relevant concept in their lives…. I mean would they get sick when they store health?  Can they get sick?

They have health for sure, but different one. They are made out of Mistwraith, which have a lifespan of about 50 years. Kandra are not immortal, they do age. Kandra can be wounded, especially with acid, and they have to eat. They can heal too. What I think storing Health do for Kandra is slow down their ability to heal the wounds, create new tissue and new body

Spoiler

Reilly Russell

Are kandra/mistwraiths naturally immortal? If so, is it magically sustained, or natural, like the immortal jellyfish? If not, what is the natural lifespan of a kandra/mistwraith?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they are not immortal, but they are very, very long lived. If you look at the First Generation, you'll see an example of aging happening. They will eventually die of old age. They don't suffer from some of the ailments that, say, humans do, and it takes a bit longer, and there is some magical sustaining of them going on.

Read For Pixels 2018 (Sept. 1, 2018)