Dawnshards used to be more powerful

[Frustration]

So I stumbled upon this WoB

Spoiler

imriel452

My request for Brandon  was "for information on the current status of the weapon that was used to kill Adonalsium, including the current possessor".

Brandon Sanderson

The weapon was expended, and no longer exists in its original form.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/134/#e2246

 

 

And was blown away by the reveal that the Dawnshards were expended shattering Adonalsium.

So Dawnshards powering up Surgebinding to the levels capable of rendering planets uninhabitable was them after they were weakened.

That makes me horrified by what power they must have had originally.

[cometaryorbit]

I took that as meaning that the 4 Dawnshards were held by 1 person, combined into "the weapon", during the Shattering - and were broken back into 4 in the process.

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I took that as meaning that the 4 Dawnshards were held by 1 person, combined into "the weapon", during the Shattering - and were broken back into 4 in the process.

They no longer exist in their original form.

We know from Nikil that they were made as four separate Dawnshards, so it has to be something else.

[offer]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

So I stumbled upon this WoB

  Hide contents

imriel452

My request for Brandon  was "for information on the current status of the weapon that was used to kill Adonalsium, including the current possessor".

Brandon Sanderson

The weapon was expended, and no longer exists in its original form.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/134/#e2246

 

 

And was blown away by the reveal that the Dawnshards were expended shattering Adonalsium.

So Dawnshards powering up Surgebinding to the levels capable of rendering planets uninhabitable was them after they were weakened.

That makes me horrified by what power they must have had originally.

 

We know they were used to "create all things" so they probably were really powerfull.

 

Now they are not in the orinial form but it does not necceserally mean they are weaker - they might even now capable of a lot more than destroying a planet (given enough investiture).

[cometaryorbit]

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

They no longer exist in their original form.

We know from Nikil that they were made as four separate Dawnshards, so it has to be something else.

I'm not sure the weapon WoBs mean simply the Dawnshards... might be Dawnshard combination + "vessel". "Its original form" wouldn't be the Dawnshards themselves but whatever composite of them was made to kill Adonalsium.

[alder24]

I also don't think it was just simply just about the Dawnshards. Dawnshards may have been combined with something which made this "weapon".

[Frustration]

19 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'm not sure the weapon WoBs mean simply the Dawnshards... might be Dawnshard combination + "vessel". "Its original form" wouldn't be the Dawnshards themselves but whatever composite of them was made to kill Adonalsium.

Nikil said that the Dawnshards were what was used to Shatter Adonalsium

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I also don't think it was just simply just about the Dawnshards. Dawnshards may have been combined with something which made this "weapon".

That's not what Nikil said. And how do you combine a living host with something else? As without a vessel Dawnshards are useless.

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Nikil said that the Dawnshards were what was used to Shatter Adonalsium

That's not what Nikil said. And how do you combine a living host with something else? As without a vessel Dawnshards are useless.

That "something" might be a very specific magic power that is no longer working, or the Vessels themselves. And what Nikli said doesn't mean that something else could be also used with Dawnshards.

[Frustration]

46 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That "something" might be a very specific magic power that is no longer working, or the Vessels themselves. And what Nikli said doesn't mean that something else could be also used with Dawnshards.

Why would the magic be considered the weapon and not the Dawnshard?

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Why would the magic be considered the weapon and not the Dawnshard?

Combination of Dawnshard, magic, vessel, every participant and whatever else was there can be considered "the weapon".

[Frustration]

Just now, alder24 said:

Combination of Dawnshard, magic, vessel, every participant and whatever else was there can be considered "the weapon".

So why was only the magic expended and no longer existing in it's original form?

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So why was only the magic expended and no longer existing in it's original form?

What I meant is that whatever Dawnshard was used with, this combination no longer exists. It's a combination of many things that made the weapon.

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, alder24 said:

What I meant is that whatever Dawnshard was used with, this combination no longer exists. It's a combination of many things that made the weapon.

Then how was it "Expended"?

If it was simply them not existing together that means nothing, just like how surgebinding and Dawnshards no longer are used together. They could simply be used that way again.

[alder24]

48 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Then how was it "Expended"?

If it was simply them not existing together that means nothing, just like how surgebinding and Dawnshards no longer are used together. They could simply be used that way again.

Vessels are dead, you can't replicate it anymore.

Listen, I understand what you mean, and where you're going with it, I just simply think that in this particular WoB, "the weapon" (notice it's not weapons) could suggest it's something more than just Dawnshards. Maybe it was one Dawnshard that was splintered into 4, or 4 into 16, like the mural in Aimia suggests? Or maybe just specific magic which was used is no longer active, as Adonalsium death messed it up? Your explanation is also a possibility, I can see that Dawnshards used to be stronger, and maybe didn't require surgebinding to work at all? If Dawnshards were the only tools used in the Shattering, why call it the weapon and not weapons? It suggests that Dawnshards were just part of the weapon, and they are what's left of it.

Spoiler

Valhalla

So, you talked about a weapon made by the enemies of Adonalsium, and you said it doesn't exist in it's original form. Do any remnants of it still exist in the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Valhalla

Have we seen any of those remnants on-screen?

Brandon Sanderson

*pause* RAFO.

In current continuity (and people would know this), Hoid's immortality comes from this. People who have read Dragonsteel know that.

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)

 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

They no longer exist in their original form.

We know from Nikil that they were made as four separate Dawnshards, so it has to be something else.

Created a one use weapon using 4 dawnshards? We know dawnshards can create a universe

[Frustration]

18 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Created a one use weapon using 4 dawnshards? We know dawnshards can create a universe

The Dawnshards were the weapon

Spoiler

Valhalla

So, you talked about a weapon made by the enemies of Adonalsium, and you said it doesn't exist in it's original form. Do any remnants of it still exist in the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Valhalla

Have we seen any of those remnants on-screen?

Brandon Sanderson

*pause* RAFO.

In current continuity (and people would know this), Hoid's immortality comes from this. People who have read Dragonsteel know that.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/355/#e10439

 

 

 

 

 

[cometaryorbit]

See to me that implies the Dawnshards are the remnants (plural) of the weapon (singular).

The older WoBs (pre-Dawnshard novella) are vaguely worded (to avoid giving too much away, presumably) but they do talk about the weapon as singular.

I think "the weapon" was some form of composite of the four Dawnshards used together, possibly also including a Vessel with a pre-Shattering Invested Art*, similarly to how Sazed used Preservation/Ruin together to reshape the world, and they melded into Harmony. But unlike Harmony, the melding didn't work quite right (or the stress of the Shattering was too much) so it broke back into four Dawnshards.

*although perhaps the four combined didn't need a Vessel with an Invested Art the way an individual one does?

Specifically my theory on the Shattering is that the 3 Dawnshards other than Change are something like Persist/Remain/Protect (Hoid's), Enact or Bind (the one "known to bind"), Bestow (or Create or Envision). They were used in unison, IMO, to Change the unity of Adonalsium and make it fragile; Bestow the power on and Bind it to the sixteen Vessels; and make the resulting Shards Persist in isolation.

Similarly to create the cosmere they would have been used to Bestow reality, Bind it to permanence (or Envision the result and Enact it into reality), give it the ability to Change and to Persist.

Edited February 3, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Frustration]

19 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

See to me that implies the Dawnshards are the remnants (plural) of the weapon (singular).

The older WoBs (pre-Dawnshard novella) are vaguely worded (to avoid giving too much away, presumably) but they do talk about the weapon as singular.

I think "the weapon" was some form of composite of the four Dawnshards used together, possibly also including a Vessel with a pre-Shattering Invested Art*, similarly to how Sazed used Preservation/Ruin together to reshape the world, and they melded into Harmony. But unlike Harmony, the melding didn't work quite right (or the stress of the Shattering was too much) so it broke back into four Dawnshards.

But the four Dawnshards would still be the original form, which the weapon no longer exists in.

[cometaryorbit]

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But the four Dawnshards would still be the original form, which the weapon no longer exists in.

The original form *of the Dawnshards*, but not the original form *of the weapon*, imo.

In the same way as if a spear is made out of a piece of wood, a leather strip, and a stone point it can still be said to be disassembled and no longer exist in its original form (of the spear) even if the components are all still there and haven't been physically changed from *their* original form.

(I'm also not sure how much we can read into the exact wording of these pre-Dawnshard novella WoBs.)

There is however the 'one Dawnshard is different' WoB, so conceivably either one or three of them was altered/weakened in some way.

 

[Returned he/him]

I don't see any reason it couldn't be something like the Infinity Gauntlet from the Avengers movies: a construct designed to channel the incredible power of some components combined with it in ways which could not otherwise be achieved. Such a construct being itself destroyed in the course of using it would fit with the WoB without needing to have the Dawnshards themselves be weakened, or even changed.

We know so little about the Dawnshards, their powers, and their implications that nearly anything about them could be true. Especially from our current frames of reference-- we know that Shards have some limits on the amount and scope of their powers when dealing with each other, but to a mortal in most situations they might as well be limitless. Given what has been implied about Shards and their effect on the universe around them I've been thinking that the Shattering involved a change to reality itself, and whatever the weapon was that effected that change it is unsuited to reality as it now exists. That could certainly include a severe reduction in the Dawnshards' power, however defined.