How well would various cosmere planets and magic systems stand up to the military might of a modern earth

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

2. Most people don't think about what they can't see, so they would have very very small representations in the CR. I doubt that something like a cm of broken plastic would have any notable presence.

Most people don't think about a stick in the middle of nowhere, and yet it has a very strong representation in CR. There are millions of scientists, engineers and enthusiasts whose daily job is to think about those microscopic things. Living in a heavily polluted area makes you taste those dust particles. There are always news sites or tv stations about those things. There is enough awareness on Earth about micro stuff to create a significant amount of new CR representations.

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

Well, another WoB states Shardplate would resist bullets fairly well, and SOTD2 spoilers

Is there a SoTD2 that I've missed? I see it sometimes being refrenced and I thought that it's just SoTD that i just don't remember well now.

Spoiler

Or Shardplates evolved and adapted to changes. Or they are providing protection from investiture mainly, and their protection from normal bullets is greatly diminished. Who knows. Right now this is all speculative.

 

20 minutes ago, therunner said:

Also, modern assault rifles (i.e. M16A1) while firing at ~900 m/s, also shoot far lighter bullets (3.5-4 grams). Comparatively Vindication is probably something like .500 Smith&Wesson, thought probably shooting only at ~200-300 m/s (as revolvers did in early 20th century), but the bullets are ~15-20 grams in weight.
So actually the momentum of bullets is about the same in both cases  (and actually possibly higher for the revolver), while the kinetic energy of the bullet is only 2.5-4x greater in the assault rifle (depending on the exact numbers).

And since armor getting hit by a bullet is inelastic collision, the more relevant parameter is the momentum, not kinetic energy (as some will be consumed by the deformation of the bullet).

TLDR: Modern assault rifles are not that much more powerful than Vindication, with at most 4x the kinetic energy per bullet. And since the collision is inelastic, a lot of that energy will be consumed by the deformation of the bullet. Momenta of the bullets are actually comparable in the two cases.

Good math. But range is also a vital factor in this. Revolver has a much smaller range than a rifle because of the bullet's initial velocity, mass and charge. Then there is a difference in material and its density used for each bullet. And depending on how WoB can be interpreted (1 bullet with steelpush, 2-3 without or something like that, tbf its hard to say as Vindication's bullets are bigger than normal ones), and the acceleration provided by a steelpush, it can still be very feasible to break a section of a Shardplate with several/dozen of M16 shots. And M16A1 has a caliber of 5.5 mm, increasing the caliber to 7, 9 or 12 mm, or whatever they are using in military would help a lot. And that's without bringing such monstrosities like GAU-8/A Avenger 30 mm cannon which would break down half of a Shardplate with a single hit (and you can't even try to change my opinion on this  ).

[therunner he/him]

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Is there a SoTD2 that I've missed? I see it sometimes being refrenced and I thought that it's just SoTD that i just don't remember well now.

  Reveal hidden contents

Or Shardplates evolved and adapted to changes. Or they are providing protection from investiture mainly, and their protection from normal bullets is greatly diminished. Who knows. Right now this is all speculative.

 

Only that reading, no release happened yet. However it suggests that they will continue to be used into Era 4, which if they were already outdated by Era 3 would be odd.

They could have been changed somehow though, as you suggest. Possibly by a bondsmith somehow transforming the nature of Nahel Bond, after all Ishar was the one who formed Knights Radiants as we know them, having such effect on early Surgebinders that Heralds refered to them as 'Ishar's Knights' .

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Good math. But range is also a vital factor in this. Revolver has a much smaller range than a rifle because of the bullet's initial velocity, mass and charge. Then there is a difference in material and its density used for each bullet.

Point range of M16A1 is only ~550 meters, however that is not due to bullet velocity and mass but mainly due to the long barrel for aiming. The larger revolvers firing at ~600 m/s have the same range for bullets (or indeed greater thanks to larger mass of bullets), however you could not hit anything at 500 meters with the revolver.

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And depending on how WoB can be interpreted (1 bullet with steelpush, 2-3 without or something like that, tbf its hard to say as Vindication's bullets are bigger than normal ones), and the acceleration provided by a steelpush, it can still be very feasible to break a section of a Shardplate with several/dozen of M16 shots.

In conjuction with the other WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3561) I interpret it that also the 2-3 bullets is with Steelpushing (+ change in mass from F-Iron). The one bullet statement is literally when everything goes right for Wax (right shot, right bullet, right time) and even then it is not said he could do it, only that there is an argument for it.

So between the two, most bullets would not be able to break a section in 2-3 hits, probably requiring far more. I think dozens of shots would be required even from M16, and they would have to hit a single section, which is relatively small target, and that target moves quite fast (~40-50 mph easily).

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And M16A1 has a caliber of 5.5 mm, increasing the caliber to 7, 9 or 12 mm, or whatever they are using in military would help a lot.

Well increasing the calibar would require to literally rebuild all the assault rifles
If we allow for that, we might as well allow the Cosmere side to prepare countermeasures as well (e.g. personal repulsor fabrials).

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And that's without bringing such monstrosities like GAU-8/A Avenger 30 mm cannon which would break down half of a Shardplate with a single hit (and you can't even try to change my opinion on this  ).

Oh yeah, that would probably shred Radiant in plate, provided it would land one After all it is weapon designed to shoot targets that are ~meters across, not human sized.

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

Well increasing the calibar would require to literally rebuild all the assault rifles
If we allow for that, we might as well allow the Cosmere side to prepare countermeasures as well (e.g. personal repulsor fabrials).

Not like that, use different guns! There are machine guns firing 7 or 12 mm caliber, sniper rifles etc.

 

[therunner he/him]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Not like that, use different guns! There are machine guns firing 7 or 12 mm caliber, sniper rifles etc.

Ah well, then those are not regular equipment of most soldiers however

Sniper rifles typically don't fire more bullets in quick succession, making them poor choice against Shardplate. Plus you must typically set them up, limiting directions in which you can shoot.

And machine guns lack in accuracy (thought not much compared to assault rifle), mobility, and directionality of shots (if you set up your machine gun in one direction, and the Radiant quickly reposition , you are in trouble). Plus they are operated by multiple people.

Edited February 23, 2023 by therunner

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Most people don't think about a stick in the middle of nowhere, and yet it has a very strong representation in CR. There are millions of scientists, engineers and enthusiasts whose daily job is to think about those microscopic things. Living in a heavily polluted area makes you taste those dust particles. There are always news sites or tv stations about those things. There is enough awareness on Earth about micro stuff to create a significant amount of new CR representations.

Considering that it takes over fifty years for a rug to become a part of the room it is in, I don't think that would be enough.

And the stick wasn't particulalry strong, Shallan is just an idiot.

[lacrossedeamon]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

And the stick wasn't particulalry strong, Shallan is just an idiot.

How dare you that stick was a paragon of Identity. The Dawnshard Remain.

[Chandlerhimself]

I think whoever knows the most about their enemy would win. This is of course assuming there are more radients than there are now and people understand how to use their power. 

 

Current armies could bomb the people of Roshar and there is nothing they could do about it. Jets are much faster than Radients and if you aren't familiar with bullets I doubt you'd even know what is happening. They could do the same with other technologies as well. 

 

The Radients could use elsecallers to teleport inside Earth's bases with Radients and break havok. A single elsecaller could destroy a battleship in seconds. A group of elsecallers could destroy a countries Navy or Airforce in a day if they knew their locations. Lightweavers could hide entire cities as well as armies or just make Earth's armies look like enemies. Since Lightweavers can work with light and sound they could also trick radar, sonar and night vision. 

 

I think the determining factor would be be how well the other side knew their enemies capabilities, location, strategies, etc. Whoever has the better spies and strikes first would win. 

[alder24]

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

Considering that it takes over fifty years for a rug to become a part of the room it is in, I don't think that would be enough.

It's about perception. When you buy a new rug, you are happy and for even years consider that rug as something separate from a room, and think "this rug looks nice". It can take years for you to think of it as one with a room, and think "this room looks nice".

When a new spear is made it quickly gains cognitive manifestation, because people didn't think of a spear as a wood and metal, but as a weapon. Syl even said to Kal that "half of spears he used were female" which means all spears that he used had cognitive manifestation, and spears are distributed quickly after being made.

And it has already been more than 50 years since microprocessors were invented, not to mention other stuff seen by microscopes, and general awareness of these objects is high in the modern population. I see it very plausible that new cognitive manifestations of microobjects were created on Earth's CR. Not every micro object, but some.

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

It's about perception. When you buy a new rug, you are happy and for even years consider that rug as something separate from a room, and think "this rug looks nice". It can take years for you to think of it as one with a room, and think "this room looks nice".

When a new spear is made it quickly gains cognitive manifestation, because people didn't think of a spear as a wood and metal, but as a weapon. Syl even said to Kal that "half of spears he used were female" which means all spears that he used had cognitive manifestation, and spears are distributed quickly after being made.

And it has already been more than 50 years since microprocessors were invented, not to mention other stuff seen by microscopes, and general awareness of these objects is high in the modern population. I see it very plausible that new cognitive manifestations of microobjects were created on Earth's CR. Not every micro object, but some.

I think the issue is that you don't think about microprocessor, you think about phone, or computer, or TV, or toothbrush even.

You don't think about dust too much, and when you do, you don't think about individual dust particles, but about dust in general as a concept. Just like you don't think about air as atoms and molecules, but as a gas within some container.

I think exactly your spear argument shows that just because we are aware things are composed of other things, that does not mean those things will have representation in CR.

[alder24]

Just now, therunner said:

I think the issue is that you don't think about microprocessor, you think about phone, or computer, or TV, or toothbrush even.

That's why I'm excluding those objects. Not everything that is micro sized would get a bead. But there are enough people on Earth like scientists, engineers and assembly workers that might think of some other micro objects as singular entities.

There are people that consider their computers as composed of different parts, not just as one object. So this kind of perception could affect many objects.

[Frustration he/him]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's about perception. When you buy a new rug, you are happy and for even years consider that rug as something separate from a room, and think "this rug looks nice". It can take years for you to think of it as one with a room, and think "this room looks nice".

After fifty years the rug has been there for more than half the lifetime of anyone around it, but still would not be considered part of the room.

But anyway that entire point is irrelivant, because you can just soulcast the people away.