Storyspren Posted January 11, 2023 Report Share Posted January 11, 2023 Did we know before Tress that... Spoiler Hoid is returned? Because that hit me like a bombshell when... Spoiler Hoid said some scholars describe his and the sorceress's kind like fossils, which is exactly how Vasher explained the returned to Kaladin. But then I have SERIOUS questions such as... Spoiler Who returned Hoid? Endowment post shattering? Or before? Could Hoid BE Adonalsium? Could this whole thing be about God trying to remake himself into a better God? Or could Adonalsium have returned Hoid and then Hoid was part of the shattering AND part of Adonalsium's plan? Does Hoid even remember the shattering? Are Hoid pre-shatter, Hoid during shatter and Hoid post returning the same or 2 different people? Three? I just feel totally blown away by this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted January 11, 2023 Report Share Posted January 11, 2023 (edited) Vasher is Returned, a special kind of Cognitive Shadow given physical form by Endowment. Hoid isn't Returned. He is, quite possibly, a Cognitive Shadow, much like Kelsier, the Heralds, the Fused, etc. He's lived 10,000+ years. He's held a Dawnshard. He's Invested with several types of magic from around the Cosmere. He's changed enough that even if he isn't technically a Cognitive Shadow, he's just as far away from what he was when he could consider himself human (or Yolish or whatever). So he describes himself in much the same way as other entities that have existed too long. But he's not a Returned. I don't think Endowment likes him that all that much. Edited January 11, 2023 by Leuthie 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanLemon Posted January 11, 2023 Report Share Posted January 11, 2023 1 minute ago, Leuthie said: He's not a Returned. I don't think Endowment likes him that much. ...I feel like this is an understatement 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted January 11, 2023 Report Share Posted January 11, 2023 Just now, StanLemon said: ...I feel like this is an understatement Didn't want to overstate as I don't really remember. But Endowment doesn't like anyone outside of Nalthis all that much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanLemon Posted January 11, 2023 Report Share Posted January 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, Leuthie said: Didn't want to overstate as I don't really remember. But Endowment doesn't like anyone outside of Nalthis all that much. True, and it might just be my interpretation of her letter, but it just reeks of of condescension 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquaRegia Posted January 11, 2023 Report Share Posted January 11, 2023 I'm agreeing with @Leuthie. I also did not get the impression that Hoid is Returned, simply that he knows he's not really a "human being" anymore. I won't be surprised if it turns out Hoid is some kind of cognitive shadow, but we don't yet know for sure. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storyspren Posted January 11, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2023 Returned or Cognitive Shadow, Hoid died at some point. Then now he is... other than dead and not gone beyond. He had to be either alive or already other than dead at the Shattering. Confirmed. This raises a whole slew of questions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted January 11, 2023 Report Share Posted January 11, 2023 5 minutes ago, Storyspren said: Returned or Cognitive Shadow, He isn't a cognitive shadow, or returned, and he hasn't died. He is a sliver, his entire soul has been transformed as a result of holding a dawnshard. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werewolff Studios Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 7 hours ago, Storyspren said: Returned or Cognitive Shadow, Hoid died at some point. Then now he is... other than dead and not gone beyond. He had to be either alive or already other than dead at the Shattering. Confirmed. This raises a whole slew of questions. I'm sorry, but could you pass on the reference to when Hoid died? I don't believe I've seen that anywhere before. As @Frustration has said, he is a Sliver, but I don't believe he died to become one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashbringer Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 Hoid got decapitated at some point and regrew his head, but I don’t think that actually killed him. Also he’s a “Dawnsliver”, not a Sliver of a Shard. Unless he still has that Dawnshard but I’m not sure if we know if that’s still the case or not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storyspren Posted January 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 3 hours ago, Werewolff Studios said: I'm sorry, but could you pass on the reference to when Hoid died? I don't believe I've seen that anywhere before. As @Frustration has said, he is a Sliver, but I don't believe he died to become one. "Some scholars say that when you become an immortal like the Sorceress or me, your soul gets replaced with something new. Like the fossilization process." (Chapter 61, pg. 661, Tress) When you combine that statement with Vasher's fossilization metaphor to Kaladin in Rhythm of War, it's gotta mean Hoid is saying he went through a similar process. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werewolff Studios Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Storyspren said: "Some scholars say that when you become an immortal like the Sorceress or me, your soul gets replaced with something new. Like the fossilization process." (Chapter 61, pg. 661, Tress) When you combine that statement with Vasher's fossilization metaphor to Kaladin in Rhythm of War, it's gotta mean Hoid is saying he went through a similar process. For a Returned that process involves dying, but not for all immortals. Hoid compares himself to the Sorceress, who's an Elantrian. Do the Elantrian's die during the process of becoming one, as they go through the Shaod? Maybe they do, maybe they don't; as he said, it's a matter of scholarly debate. If your soul is Infused with so much Investiture that you're essentially no longer 'you', have you died? Or, is it still you because of your spiritweb and your Connections to those around you? As a more practical example, did Kelsier's soul go to the Beyond, but his Cognitive version stay behind and continue to act as the original Kelsier would have, or is it still Kelsier's soul and he hasn't gone to the Beyond? I don't know if Brandon will ever confirm this, kind of like how he's said he'll never confirm the God Beyond's existence. It's a matter of debate for the characters and their worldviews. In looking at that reference specifically, I believe the process Hoid is referring to is his taking up of the Dawnshard, which warped his spiritweb due to the influx of Investiture. It's very similar to Elantrian's going through the Shaod, being filled with the raw power of the Dor. I feel that's the fossilization process that he's taking about. He may have 'died' in that sense, but I don't see it as proof that Hoid physically died. I'm not denying that he may have, mind you, but I don't feel this is a smoking gun moment. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 5 hours ago, Werewolff Studios said: Do the Elantrian's die during the process of becoming one, as they go through the Shaod? They do not Spoiler Khyrindor You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree? Brandon Sanderson Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created. Recognize that the term cognitive shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this: Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality. A mind (cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture. When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul. Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety. linkhyrule5 Huh. ... Kandra are almost literally stapled to their bodies with Hemalurgy - would they count as such, to the in-setting scholars? Brandon Sanderson No, they wouldn't. They are beings who have had their souls twisted by Hemalurgy--the soul never left, it's just been messed up. Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count though. Stormlight Three Update #6 (Jan. 20, 2017) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSuperLee Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 18 hours ago, Storyspren said: He had to be either alive or already other than dead at the Shattering. Confirmed. The way you worded combined with @Storyspren proposing that Hoid might be Adonalsium has now given me a mental picture of the Shattering occurring by somehow condensing Adonalsium's consciousness into Hoid (basically putting Adonalsium into Hoid's body) and then using the fact Adonalsium was now technically mortal to kill him, alongside Hoid's body. But because of how invested Ado's mind would have been, Hoid left behind a cognitive shadow that the other's R/returned (I wish English had letters that were both capitalized and not at the same time for my use of that word) his cognitive shadow to his body. I highly doubt this is the case, but that's the mental image this conversation is giving me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basement_boi Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 52 minutes ago, HSuperLee said: The way you worded combined with @Storyspren proposing that Hoid might be Adonalsium has now given me a mental picture of the Shattering occurring by somehow condensing Adonalsium's consciousness into Hoid (basically putting Adonalsium into Hoid's body) and then using the fact Adonalsium was now technically mortal to kill him, alongside Hoid's body. But because of how invested Ado's mind would have been, Hoid left behind a cognitive shadow that the other's R/returned (I wish English had letters that were both capitalized and not at the same time for my use of that word) his cognitive shadow to his body. I highly doubt this is the case, but that's the mental image this conversation is giving me. I disagree with this for a couple of reasons. 1. Hoid says in Tress that he was involved in a plot to kill God (Adonalsium). Yes, being the victim could count as involved, but the way he phrases it doesn’t sound like that to me. 2. Brandon has been asked before if Hoid was Adonalsium. I will admit, I cannot find the WoB in question, but I am absolutely sure that it exists. Hoid is not Adonalsium. 3. Dragonsteel takes place before the Shattering. That’s Hoid’s origin story. It wouldn’t make sense to be before the Shattering if Hoid didn’t exist until Adonalsium shattered. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werewolff Studios Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 6 hours ago, Frustration said: They do not Hide contents Khyrindor You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree? Brandon Sanderson Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created. Recognize that the term cognitive shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this: Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality. A mind (cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture. When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul. Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety. linkhyrule5 Huh. ... Kandra are almost literally stapled to their bodies with Hemalurgy - would they count as such, to the in-setting scholars? Brandon Sanderson No, they wouldn't. They are beings who have had their souls twisted by Hemalurgy--the soul never left, it's just been messed up. Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count though. Stormlight Three Update #6 (Jan. 20, 2017) That's a fantastic WOB @Frustration, thank you for finding it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 1 minute ago, Werewolff Studios said: That's a fantastic WOB @Frustration, thank you for finding it. Anytime 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormingTexan Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 5 hours ago, basement_boi said: 2. Brandon has been asked before if Hoid was Adonalsium. I will admit, I cannot find the WoB in question, but I am absolutely sure that it exists. Hoid is not Adonalsium. Quote Questioner Hoid was at the Shattering of Adonalsium? Brandon Sanderson He was there, yes. Questioner Was he Adonalsium? Brandon Sanderson He was not. Good question. FanX 2018 (Sept. 8, 2018) But interestingly along the lines of the discussion there is this WoB while it is a RAFO it was also a "Valid Theory" Quote Questioner So, Hoid was there during the Shattering of Adonalsium. Odium is going around, like, destroying other Shards. We know that Hoid is collecting and has pieces of some of the other Shards. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner Since Hoid was there at the original Shattering of Adonalsium. Is there an echo image of the original Adonalsium in Hoid? Brandon Sanderson Uh, that's a RAFO. Here's your card. But it is a valid theory. Questioner I have a two-parter on that. Brandon Sanderson You can ask me the next part, but it is a RAFO. Questioner Is his end goal trying to join as many pieces of Adonalsium together to *inaudible* Brandon Sanderson Um, that, I will give a "that's a very good guess." And that is what the books seem to indicate is happening. Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 21, 2017) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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