Silver?

[KidWayne]

Can someone help me understand what is going on with silver on Lumar and Threnody?
 

Why is silver allomantically inert on Scadrial when it appears to extinguish investiture on other planets of the cosmere? Aluminum acts that way in Allomancy but on worlds where silver has an effect, aluminum is an insulator and a concealer. On these worlds, aluminum is inert with regard to investiture, but it doesn’t eradicate it (in the way that silver does). 

Another interesting fact I noted was that both Lumar and Threnody are not actively invested by a shard. Not sure that is relevant, but it could be. 
 

So, what is up with silver?

[HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose?]

aparrently not all silver in the cosmere is made equal. For example Rosharan silver notably lacks this property, and special thredonite silver is imported. Perhaps this property is simply a byproduct of a method of investiture that multiple shards can do.

[+Oltux72]

17 minutes ago, KidWayne said:

Can someone help me understand what is going on with silver on Lumar and Threnody?

It is inimical to certain Invested entities.

17 minutes ago, KidWayne said:

Why is silver allomantically inert on Scadrial when it appears to extinguish investiture on other planets of the cosmere?

Because it likely isn't inert. The kind of entity vulnerable to silver presumably just does not exist on Scadrial. Although we have no idea what were to happen if one were to go at Kelsier with a silver knife. Nor are the metals inert on Lumar and Roshar.

17 minutes ago, KidWayne said:

Aluminum acts that way in Allomancy but on worlds where silver has an effect, aluminum is an insulator and a concealer. On these worlds, aluminum is inert with regard to investiture, but it doesn’t eradicate it (in the way that silver does). 

Aluminium does not eradicate Investiture. It shields you from foreign Investiture. Allomancer Jak found spikes in an aluminium box and they were preserved.

 

[StanLemon]

Aluminum grounds Investiture, this would explain why it works so well as an insulator. Silver seems to have some effect on, I don't quite want to say Corrupted Investiture, but entities that have been corrupted in some way

[+Oltux72]

12 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Aluminum grounds Investiture, this would explain why it works so well as an insulator. Silver seems to have some effect on, I don't quite want to say Corrupted Investiture, but entities that have been corrupted in some way

Except that it doesn't. Touch it to an Invested gemstone and nothing happens.

[Sobel]

Allomantic metals are a "key" to investiture, not invested themselves, so I don't think it's weird that a metal that kills investiture wouldn't have any effect. 

21 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Except that it doesn't. Touch it to an Invested gemstone and nothing happens.

Idk if it's just semantics or not, but if you do that you're not really touching the investiture, you're touching the gemstone. The only place you'd see it's effect on raw investiture (on Roshar) would be touching sliver to stormlight itself. Or maybe Spren? That said, I guess the spores aren't "pure investiture" either, are they?

 

I'd be curious to see if as Sel evolves we start seeing cultures using silver weapons as a way to disarm Aeons. 

 

**side note, I'm kinda new here, and I couldn't find any rules on posting. If I'm in violation of something, please let me know and link me the rules so I can read up!

[Frustration]

36 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Except that it doesn't. Touch it to an Invested gemstone and nothing happens.

But you can kill spren with it

Spoiler

Ace Heat

Would it be possible to use an aluminum spike to permanently kill a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

No, that's not gonna work. Silver, on the other hand, there's some possibility.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

[StanLemon]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But you can kill spren with it

  Hide contents

Ace Heat

Would it be possible to use an aluminum spike to permanently kill a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

No, that's not gonna work. Silver, on the other hand, there's some possibility.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Oltux72 was referring to me saying Aluminum grounds Investiture I think 

Also I wasn't aware of that WoB. Perhaps Silver acts as anathema to Cognitive Investiture for lack of a better term. Silver chains are used for protection during Cognitive Anomalies 

Edited January 4, 2023 by StanLemon

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Oltux72 was referring to me saying Aluminum grounds Investiture I think 

Well the reason invested gemstones don't react to aluminum is that the Stormlight can't interact with the aluminum.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Frustration

[IndigoAjah]

Sounds like Silver kills slivers, somehow. The thing about Scadrial that's current unique in the Cosmere as we know it is that we think Ruin, Preservation and Harmony didn't have any Slivers/splinters so maybe that's why it isn't seen to do anything there?

 

Allomantic inertia isn't Investiture inertia, after all.

 

That said, given that the Lord Ruler is a pseudo Splinter of P, holding and changed by much of its Power, if that element is what makes beings vulnerable to Silver (presumably with a Cognitive and/or Spiritual component) then maybe if someone had stabbed the Lord Ruler with a seemingly pointless silver knife years ago it would have solved a lot of problems!

 

Indeed Silver's main impact in Scadrial to date was its compound with Atium which directly led to TLR's death, maybe that's a metaphor?

[Ashbringer]

Malatium is atium and gold, not silver. Although electrum has silver in it.

It does seem like silver can damage Cognitive things, but why that would affect the spores I don’t quite get. Maybe it severs their bond to the moon large aethers? Would be interesting to see how silver reacts to the white sand.

Also, I didn’t notice any mention of the silver on ships needing to be replaced over time, which is interesting. Silver used for shades does.

[+Oltux72]

7 hours ago, IndigoAjah said:

Sounds like Silver kills slivers, somehow.

Calling Threnodite Shades slivers is pushing it, I am afraid. Free Invested entities may be closer to the truth. We would probably know if it did anything against the Returned, so it cannot be extremely simple.

7 hours ago, IndigoAjah said:

The thing about Scadrial that's current unique in the Cosmere as we know it is that we think Ruin, Preservation and Harmony didn't have any Slivers/splinters so maybe that's why it isn't seen to do anything there?

Which worlds but Sel and Roshar do have splinters around in large numbers? I am afraid what we have seen of the Cosmere is highly skewed.

And while we are picking nits, if you count the number of times the Well of Ascension has overflowed, Scadrial likely has the largest number of Splinters in the Cosmere.

 

[IndigoAjah]

4 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Malatium is atium and gold, not silver. Although electrum has silver in it.

It does seem like silver can damage Cognitive things, but why that would affect the spores I don’t quite get. Maybe it severs their bond to the moon large aethers? Would be interesting to see how silver reacts to the white sand.

Also, I didn’t notice any mention of the silver on ships needing to be replaced over time, which is interesting. Silver used for shades does.

My bad re Malatium, I was sure it was silver but I am wrong.

It would be easier to know re the spores of the Aethers if we knew what exactly was "wrong" with them, as has been implied.

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Calling Threnodite Shades slivers is pushing it, I am afraid. Free Invested entities may be closer to the truth. We would probably know if it did anything against the Returned, so it cannot be extremely simple.

Which worlds but Sel and Roshar do have splinters around in large numbers? I am afraid what we have seen of the Cosmere is highly skewed.

And while we are picking nits, if you count the number of times the Well of Ascension has overflowed, Scadrial likely has the largest number of Splinters in the Cosmere.

 

Given Shades probably exist as a result of Odium's fight with (where he splintered) Ambition, it is conjecture but not, imo, pushing it. And re the Returned, has anyone asked Brandon? Do we see Silver on Nalthis?

 

And we've probably seen Splinters on every world, except, according to the Coppermind, Scadrial, where we've seen Slivers (I had to remind myself on the difference, and I made no distinction in the first post, sorry)

 

That said, searching for Silver in Nalthis online brought up the concept of a cognitive anomaly, Silver Chains from Threnody can be used to anchor things to get through. That implies Silver from Threnody (but maybe not just Threnody? What does Lumar share with Threnody?) IS special. And could we say Shades and Spores are Cognitive Anomalies?

 

 

 

[+Oltux72]

26 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

Given Shades probably exist as a result of Odium's fight with (where he splintered) Ambition, it is conjecture but not, imo, pushing it. And re the Returned, has anyone asked Brandon? Do we see Silver on Nalthis?

Generally cognitive shadows are made out of the Investiture of the deceased person.

(Secret Project #4)

Spoiler

And the Threnodites retain the capability to turn into Shades in other solar systems.

Nightblood's sheath is described as silver. I always understood that as a color. Now, in hindsight ...
No human culture on Earth has made it to steel without discovering silver, but that is thin evidence.

However, as you brought it up, the Fused can touch silver without ill effect.

26 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

That said, searching for Silver in Nalthis online brought up the concept of a cognitive anomaly, Silver Chains from Threnody can be used to anchor things to get through. That implies Silver from Threnody (but maybe not just Threnody? What does Lumar share with Threnody?) IS special.

By that logic Japanese iron is different from, for example, Afghan iron because cars are made from Japanese steel, but not Afghan steel. It is possible that the Threnodites make those chains from silver for a functional reason, but that they make them just points to them having technology more advanced in some fields than other worlds.

26 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

And could we say Shades and Spores are Cognitive Anomalies?

Spores are physical.

[king of nowhere]

It is possible that silver has effects on other worlds too, just not as noticeable.

maybe allomantic pushes around silver are 20% weaker, that's a small enough difference that it is conceivable nobody would have noticed. Or maybe a silver blade would have been extra effective against koloss, but nobody noticed because normal swords are effective anyway.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

By that logic Japanese iron is different from, for example, Afghan iron because cars are made from Japanese steel, but not Afghan steel. It is possible that the Threnodites make those chains from silver for a functional reason, but that they make them just points to them having technology more advanced in some fields than other worlds.

 

in the past, steel made in different places was different, because of different contaminants in the ores. this resulted occasionally in ancient societies getting an advanced steel entirely by chance, because they had the right mix of impurities in their iron ores.

with modern smelting, all the process is standardized so that there are no significant differences

[Ashbringer]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Nightblood's sheath is described as silver. I always understood that as a color. Now, in hindsight ...
No human culture on Earth has made it to steel without discovering silver, but that is thin evidence.

However, as you brought it up, the Fused can touch silver without ill effect.

Nightblood’s sheath is aluminum. The two metals just look similar.

The silver chain also showed up in the hands (maybe not literally) of a spren in the Cognitive realm, so maybe it’s just different somehow.

[StanLemon]

Properties of Silver that we know for sure about

Can harm Threnodite Shades

Reverse the Shade's effects if applied quickly enough

It deteriorates when used against against Shades or to heal the woulds inflicted by them

Can be used to make wards against them

Are used in the construction of chains used to anchor during Cognitive Anomalies 

Can harm Spren

Kill Aether Spores with proximity and harm manifest Aethers through touch

 

It looks like the most common aspect is its relationship with living Investiture

A shot in the dark but what if Silver purifies Investiture of Identity?

[ranstang94]

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

with modern smelting, all the process is standardized so that there are no significant differences

I know this is a bit of a nit pick... but as a blade smith I can tell you that there is still a huge difference even with standardization. Probably it's mostly because of quality control differences, but there is still a noticeable difference in steels from different regions. 

I think Thenody Silver very well might be different from other silvers. Also I would like to see the effect of Silver on one of the corrupted Spren, it may be that it is a purifier of investiture.  

[Proletariat]

I mean, we know that silver does nothing to surges, or the Dor, and can also be moved around with steelpushes with no resistance so it's something a bit more complex than its relationship with investiture which sets it apart from the sixteen standard metals. Imo it definitely has to be something specific to the cognitive relationship given what it can do with anomalies, shades, and potentially spren and it doesn't physically damage spores but it does cut their link to the aether and render them inert.

[HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose?]

18 hours ago, ranstang94 said:

I know this is a bit of a nit pick... but as a blade smith I can tell you that there is still a huge difference even with standardization. Probably it's mostly because of quality control differences, but there is still a noticeable difference in steels from different regions. 

I think Thenody Silver very well might be different from other silvers. Also I would like to see the effect of Silver on one of the corrupted Spren, it may be that it is a purifier of investiture.  

I really like this idea. The shades are definitely not how thredonites are supposed to turn into cognitive shadows, and the aethers on lumar are often described as cancerous, a fecund and violent evolution of aethers. The silver might either be destroying the impure investiture, or realigning it with it's ideal spiritual identity

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

3 hours ago, HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose? said:

The silver might either be destroying the impure investiture, or realigning it with it's ideal spiritual identity

That does make sense with it's traditional associations in the real world

[HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose?]

Yah, It also makes sense with silver acting a spiritual anchor, and wearing silver jewelry helping in anchoring you in cognitive anomalies

It makes me wonder what would happen if a herald were to wear the silver chain raboniel recieved. Luckily, The chain is probably now in the possession of Navani Kholin, in close proximity to two heralds. Or we could see It being given to Szeth and Kaladin on their quest

Edited January 6, 2023 by HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose?

[Ashbringer]

I think it’s implied the Threnodite silver chain is more than just a chain made out of silver. Whether that’s just Threnodite silver vs Rosharan silver… maybe? But Roshar has Soulcasters, they’d be able to create a purer silver than pretty much anywhere else. Unless you can’t Soulcast silver, but you can do aluminum so that would be surprising.

It’s abilities are probably interrelated, but I doubt it’s a primary ability of silver on its own.

[drunkenbotanist]

Regarding the silver on the boats not being replaced.

 

Eventually it probably needs to be, however the spores have very little investiture, unlike say a Shade

What i want confirmed is that Twinsoul's creations are more/completely resistant to silver, that resistance to the effects of silver also something to do with identity or connection 

 

 

 

[+Oltux72]

14 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

That does make sense with it's traditional associations in the real world

Then why would it be a danger to ordinary spren?

Not that I have a full counterproposal, but there seems to be a basic weakness in this theory.