Karbranth Rebellion

[Letryx13]

Another one of my random ideas occurred to me recently. Everyone is focusing on how the contest of champions and the agreement relating to it is going to decide the future of Roshar.  I agree that it is almost certainly going to be the deciding event in book 5, but there will obviously be a lot more going on than just that. So I've been wondering what else might happen that could cause conflict between the various groups on Roshar, and I think I found a good one.

In order to find out as much as possible to be able to fulfill his plan to make a deal with Odium, Tarravangian abducted people from his hospitals and slowly killed them, with people he trusted standing by to record any death rattles that the dying might speak.  As far as we know, the only people to know about this are the members of the Diagram and Szeth.  Tarravangian revealed that he had sent Szeth to kill Dalinar, but as far as I know, the King of Karbranth never revealed that he was using people like this.  So what would happen if this information were to be revealed to the people of Karbranth.

As of right now, Karbranth is neutral in the conflict between the forces of Honor and Odium. Odium is supposedly bound by his promise, to Tarravangian ironically, not to touch Karbranth, and Dalinar is currently uninterested in attacking them due to their insignificance. But what would happen if the city were to go into a rebellion, upon learning that their former ruler, the father of their current queen, was abducting citizens and killing them for his own twisted reasons?  If that somehow got out, I can only assume because of Szeth, and there was any kind of evidence to support it, it's not hard to imagine the city being spurred to revolt.

Now of course, there are a couple of issues with this theory.  First of all, since the two people who made the deal to protect Karbranth are now essentially the same person, is that deal even binding? I brought up that very point with someone who had a different idea (and arguably an even better one) about how to turn the Karbranth protection deal against Odium.  I don't think we know enough to really answer that question, so we'll have to wait and see. The second issue is how exactly this would get out and why hasn't it before? Well, as I said, Szeth is the only one outside of the Diagram organization who knows about what they were doing to hear the death rattles, and as we learned with the anti voidlight sphere, he's not always the most forthcoming with information except when directly asked.  And if a conversation regarding Tarravangian's other actions, such as him having Szeth kill monarchs across Roshar, were to occur, it's not unreasonable to assume that something regarding the death rattles were to pop up.  The next problem is how would anyone get proof (if any is left), and the only way that I can think of is for someone to infiltrate Karbranth, which I think could make for a a good mission for some characters, maybe some of Shallan's agent LightWeavers, to go on.

The biggest problem with this theory is that until someone figures out Tarravangian is Odium, there's not really a good reason to stir up trouble in Karbranth. If and when it gets out, having Karbranth on the verge of collapse, disrupting the very thing Tarravangian worked to hard to prevent, would be a fantastic way to expose his corruption and cause a huge distraction for the newest Shard.  Not to mention it would be a great twist, doing to Tarravangian the exact same thing he did to Dalinar in OathBringer.  But as it stands right now, the only person not under Odium's command that is likely to find out about Todium is Hoid.  And while he might very well decide to cause such a rebellion as a way to help indirectly, he'd have to find out about Todium quickly enough and make it to Karbranth in time to expose things.  

I'm trying to think of other reasons good enough for the Radiants, or even another group like the GhostBloods or even the Listerners, to stir things up in Karbranth.  So far, I haven't come up with anything.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Letryx13
Incomplete

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I do think there is some sense in looking to Kharbranth for book 5. For one, Shallan started her storyline there back in WoK, and it would be a nice circle should she return (and given that she is the main character whose role in book 5 is the least clear, I'd say she would likely be a POV in Kharbranth should we return there). We also have the case of Heralds. At least one is/has been in Kharbranth with Taravangian. 

However, I'm not sure that Taravangian being exposed would lead to a revolution in Kharbranth, or why anyone really would want to stir up trouble there. It is not a strategically super-important city. Geographically it is quite off-track from everything else. Even if Taravangian would start using it as a base for the forces of Odium, it would probably be lower priority than say Alethkar. I think any big battles in book 5 are more likely to be around the central or western parts of Roshar. 

[Letryx13]

32 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I do think there is some sense in looking to Kharbranth for book 5. For one, Shallan started her storyline there back in WoK, and it would be a nice circle should she return (and given that she is the main character whose role in book 5 is the least clear, I'd say she would likely be a POV in Kharbranth should we return there). We also have the case of Heralds. At least one is/has been in Kharbranth with Taravangian. 

However, I'm not sure that Taravangian being exposed would lead to a revolution in Kharbranth, or why anyone really would want to stir up trouble there. It is not a strategically super-important city. Geographically it is quite off-track from everything else. Even if Taravangian would start using it as a base for the forces of Odium, it would probably be lower priority than say Alethkar. I think any big battles in book 5 are more likely to be around the central or western parts of Roshar. 

I'm glad you brought up Shallan.  I've been wondering how she and Adolin could possibly make it back in time to do much to help with the contest or other battles, since it took them weeks to get to Lasting Integrity, and they were still there at the end of RoW. I'm not sure how the cities on each side relate to each other, but if Karbranth and Lasting Integrity are close to each other, then that could make sense, if they find a way to get back out of ShadesMar. And that could explain why they might be forced to do something about Karbranth.  And the herald that was Taravangian's source of information could be another reason to send people to Karbranth.  Especially if there is something important about that particular herald, such as they know something the others don't.

I don't think Taravangian will start using Karbranth as a base, it seems a little too contradictory to what he wanted all along. And I admit, I'm not sure if just exposing what Taravangian did will be enough to start a revolt. But it's possible that what he did could be spun in such a way that it makes people panic, with people thinking that their former king (and possibly his daughter) were having people kidnapped and tortured to death.  It's frighteningly close to the truth.  That sort of fear could spur a rebellion, if it were introduced to the city.  

[alder24]

The problem I see with this rebelion, is that the current government already condemned and cut all its ties with previous one, and Taravangian, as a reaction to Taravangian's betrayal. His daughter was purposefully kept away from him and Diagram, so she could not be connected to his actions. Even if people discoverd all of Taravangian's actions, they couldn't blame his daughter for it, as she stands on their side.

Moreover who knows about what he done in Hospital? Only Diagram and Szeth - Szeth is not a trustworthy witness, and Diagram is dispersed and still loyal. Who knows about deal between Taravangian and Odium? Tbf I don't remember if Taravangian say it to Dalinar (I think he did?), and if he did, did he mention Kharbrant as a subject of this deal? Dalinar is too honorable to use this to increase unrest in now neutral city. And, what is the most scary thing, people just simply don't care about homeless people disappearing from the streats and being killed in the back rooms of the hospitals. Not when they can enjoy free healtcare for it. 

The deal between Odium and Taravangian is still binding to Todium, as he checked it.

[Letryx13]

On 1/3/2023 at 0:47 PM, alder24 said:

The problem I see with this rebelion, is that the current government already condemned and cut all its ties with previous one, and Taravangian, as a reaction to Taravangian's betrayal. His daughter was purposefully kept away from him and Diagram, so she could not be connected to his actions. Even if people discoverd all of Taravangian's actions, they couldn't blame his daughter for it, as she stands on their side.

That is another issue, which is why I think just exposing Taravangian's actions might not be enough by itself.  Unless his actions were exaggerated, or revealed in a specific way, it might not cause much fuss. But as far as his daughter is concerned, while it's true that Taravangian kept his daughter away from his actions to insulate her from the blame, it's not hard to imagine people not buying that she had nothing to do with it, or that she was completely ignorant.  She was both his daughter and heir, and for better or worse, people are often judged by who they're related to.

On 1/3/2023 at 0:47 PM, alder24 said:

Moreover who knows about what he done in Hospital? Only Diagram and Szeth - Szeth is not a trustworthy witness, and Diagram is dispersed and still loyal. Who knows about deal between Taravangian and Odium? Tbf I don't remember if Taravangian say it to Dalinar (I think he did?), and if he did, did he mention Kharbrant as a subject of this deal? Dalinar is too honorable to use this to increase unrest in now neutral city. And, what is the most scary thing, people just simply don't care about homeless people disappearing from the streats and being killed in the back rooms of the hospitals. Not when they can enjoy free healtcare for it. 

True, Szeth is the only one who knows, which is why I think he needs to be the one to tip others off about it.  And you're correct, he's not a witness many would believe, but his information could be a reason to try and find more convincing evidence. 

Dalinar knows that Taravangian sided with Odium to preserve Kharbranth.  The exact details weren't mentioned in their discussion, but Dalinar knows the price Odium paid for Taravangians help. And I agree that Dalinar wouldn't attack Kharbranth, unless it somehow became important strategically; he wouldn't attack a city for what amounts to spite, but there are other organizations and people on Roshar that are not as noble.  

And lastly, the people that were disappearing weren't just homeless people, judging by the descriptions of the death rattles in the chapters.  People with jobs and people with families were used as well.  Plus, I don't think those people would be so willing to use the hospitals if it got out that's where a lot of people were taken from. Not if they feared being abducted and killed if they went there for treatment.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Letryx13

[bmcclure7]

On 1/2/2023 at 11:56 AM, Letryx13 said:

Another one of my random ideas occurred to me recently. Everyone is focusing on how the contest of champions and the agreement relating to it is going to decide the future of Roshar.  I agree that it is almost certainly going to be the deciding event in book 5, but there will obviously be a lot more going on than just that. So I've been wondering what else might happen that could cause conflict between the various groups on Roshar, and I think I found a good one.

In order to find out as much as possible to be able to fulfill his plan to make a deal with Odium, Tarravangian abducted people from his hospitals and slowly killed them, with people he trusted standing by to record any death rattles that the dying might speak.  As far as we know, the only people to know about this are the members of the Diagram and Szeth.  Tarravangian revealed that he had sent Szeth to kill Dalinar, but as far as I know, the King of Karbranth never revealed that he was using people like this.  So what would happen if this information were to be revealed to the people of Karbranth.

As of right now, Karbranth is neutral in the conflict between the forces of Honor and Odium. Odium is supposedly bound by his promise, to Tarravangian ironically, not to touch Karbranth, and Dalinar is currently uninterested in attacking them due to their insignificance. But what would happen if the city were to go into a rebellion, upon learning that their former ruler, the father of their current queen, was abducting citizens and killing them for his own twisted reasons?  If that somehow got out, I can only assume because of Szeth, and there was any kind of evidence to support it, it's not hard to imagine the city being spurred to revolt.

Now of course, there are a couple of issues with this theory.  First of all, since the two people who made the deal to protect Karbranth are now essentially the same person, is that deal even binding? I brought up that very point with someone who had a different idea (and arguably an even better one) about how to turn the Karbranth protection deal against Odium.  I don't think we know enough to really answer that question, so we'll have to wait and see. The second issue is how exactly this would get out and why hasn't it before? Well, as I said, Szeth is the only one outside of the Diagram organization who knows about what they were doing to hear the death rattles, and as we learned with the anti voidlight sphere, he's not always the most forthcoming with information except when directly asked.  And if a conversation regarding Tarravangian's other actions, such as him having Szeth kill monarchs across Roshar, were to occur, it's not unreasonable to assume that something regarding the death rattles were to pop up.  The next problem is how would anyone get proof (if any is left), and the only way that I can think of is for someone to infiltrate Karbranth, which I think could make for a a good mission for some characters, maybe some of Shallan's agent LightWeavers, to go on.

The biggest problem with this theory is that until someone figures out Tarravangian is Odium, there's not really a good reason to stir up trouble in Karbranth. If and when it gets out, having Karbranth on the verge of collapse, disrupting the very thing Tarravangian worked to hard to prevent, would be a fantastic way to expose his corruption and cause a huge distraction for the newest Shard.  Not to mention it would be a great twist, doing to Tarravangian the exact same thing he did to Dalinar in OathBringer.  But as it stands right now, the only person not under Odium's command that is likely to find out about Todium is Hoid.  And while he might very well decide to cause such a rebellion as a way to help indirectly, he'd have to find out about Todium quickly enough and make it to Karbranth in time to expose things.  

I'm trying to think of other reasons good enough for the Radiants, or even another group like the GhostBloods or even the Listerners, to stir things up in Karbranth.  So far, I haven't come up with anything.

I have a theory where Jasnah would try just this only it will completely backfire in her face resulting in odium losing control and destroying most of roshar.

[Letryx13]

18 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I have a theory where Jasnah would try just this only it will completely backfire in her face resulting in odium losing control and destroying most of roshar.

I'm glad you mentioned Jasnah.  She's definitely someone that would try something like this, and I agree that it could easily backfire, but I doubt it would result in Odium losing control completely.  But, yes, this is not an unlikely scenario.

[bmcclure7]

On 1/6/2023 at 0:21 PM, Letryx13 said:

I'm glad you mentioned Jasnah.  She's definitely someone that would try something like this, and I agree that it could easily backfire, but I doubt it would result in Odium losing control completely.  But, yes, this is not an unlikely scenario.

 I'm not sure but I think that odium is a shard that is very hard to control the former odium had trouble do it and cultivation put todium through years of training to prepare him, even then his first reaction was to start smiting people.  If his home was threatened, his precious home that he almost sold the world for ,  Then I could easily see him losing it to odium's passionate side  And just destroying everything that could possibly harm his home, which would probably most of the roshar that isn't his home. 

 This fits thematically As well one of the complaints I have about odium was we haven't really seen him  Really do any odium stuff,  For a God of hatred  He's done Far less smiting than I expected. It Would fit theomatically for him to really cut loose And finally live up to his name. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by bmcclure7