Mistborn V.S. 3rd Ideal Lightweaver

[alder24]

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

Kaladin did that without a teacher, and his squires were using their powers adequately within a week.

Week? In OB it took them several trips to Shattered Plains to learn how to breathe in the light, and more to learn to fly. And during RoW they were still not as good as Fused. That was more than a year.

[Frustration]

Just now, alder24 said:

Week? In OB it took them several trips to Shattered Plains to learn how to breathe in the light, and more to learn to fly. And during RoW they were still not as good as Fused. That was more than a year.

They aren't squires until they can breathe light.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

23 minutes ago, therunner said:

It is easier to carry more metal true, but a person can carry enough spheres to last literal hours while using Surges non-stop (Kaladin's flight to Hearthstone at beginning of OB). Since Lightweaving consumes relatively little compared to Lashings, Lightweaver creating only Illusions could possibly outlast Mistborn.

Fair point, however using that fights are done according to narrative conventions and tropes as argument feels, odd?
Effectively every fight is determined beforehand through narrative, so from that perspective nearly nothing in the books outside of Arcanum should be taken as evidence, which then makes these threads completely moot.

These threads are already completely moot due to having no set unit of measurement as it is.  If the argument is "you can carry hundreds of spheres" then the counter is you can swallow a lb of steel.   When saying people run out fast we are talking about using shavings of a metal not nuggets or chunks.  

My argument was that in the world of mistborn and without access to aluminum readily available it makes sense that they only use and carry shavings.  

In a fight with access to all of the metals (meaning you can safely carry a stomach full of metals with a shaving of aluminum to wipe it before toxins build up) and no fear of having your metals pushed into you we have a much more favorable condition for the mistborn.  

We do see in the books that when they aren't concerned about other mistborn or not using the metals they carry absurd amounts.  How much pewter did Vin and Kel need to make a half day sprint when in other instances they run out after just a few minutes?  Steel and iron along the mistborn highways... far more carried in these instances than to go fight some random hazekillers.  

Surgebinders have the luxury of having none of the threats that mistborn do when carrying large amounts of metal.  The existence of alluminum negates one threat and the fact that they aren't worried about fighting other metalborn negates the other.  There is little evidence that when absent these threats a mistborn wouldn't swallow a metric ton of metal if it were to meet their needs.  

Edit: I am sure we would see different usages of spheres in a world where the Knights radiant were constantly at war with eachother and found ways to weaponize enemy spheres as they were carrying them as well.  As it stands Roshars war is conveniently separated by infinite power sources vs infinite power sources.  

Edited February 3, 2023 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[therunner he/him]

16 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

These threads are already completely moot due to having no set unit of measurement as it is.  If the argument is "you can carry hundreds of spheres" then the counter is you can swallow a lb of steel.   When saying people run out fast we are talking about using shavings of a metal not nuggets or chunks. 

Yes, however I brought that up only in the response to statement that Mistborn would outlast Lightweaver. I mentioned that Mistborn do run out of metals (and we see it happen).

I do think that any argument hinging on 'opponent will run out' is relatively weak, since for Mistborn it would be 'easy' to ingest a lot of metal before hand to have at least hour of most metals, and Lightweaver can have enough spheres to last then hours as well.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Yes, however I brought that up only in the response to statement that Mistborn would outlast Lightweaver. I mentioned that Mistborn do run out of metals (and we see it happen).

I do think that any argument hinging on 'opponent will run out' is relatively weak, since for Mistborn it would be 'easy' to ingest a lot of metal before hand to have at least hour of most metals, and Lightweaver can have enough spheres to last then hours as well.

I certainly agree that waiting for the opponent to run out of juice is a weak argument.  

However, as I thought more about this earlier I couldn't help but think about the fact that the fight still just comes down to a person who can heal infinitely with a Blade vs a person who cannot heal at all but can leech.  

That kind of brings us back around to stormlight with a shardblade vs a mistborn without it.  Which was largely what the windrunner vs mistborn boiled down to as well.  

Lightweavers just have a much harder time closing distance against the mistborn than the windrunner has, as well as fewer ranged defense.  

I am curious how well the lightweaver recognizes their own illusions.  Can Shallan see through her illusions or could a mistborn duck and weave through them as well?  I am thinking if a mass confusion via a bunch of illusions could be more of a hindrance to the lightweaver than a help in the case of a mistborn burning metals that allow them to see through the illusions (electrum / gold) or if a lack of steel / iron lines would tip off the mistborn enough to keep tabs of the lightweaver.  

In the case of ranged combat vs the lightweaver it is an easy enough thing to say they have enough light to heal coins to the face or other body parts but how many times can they be shot and healed before running out?   

I do agree that both sides having "just enough" is a dumb argument.   We do see mistborn run out of metals, but again my reasoning for why they would in the book and why I think they would have far more in this instance stands, but we also see radiants run out of stormlight.  After one large push or healing too much.  Taking that last breath is a common thing.  "Gotta win now cause this is all I got", only to conveniently figure out the win with that last bit of stormlight in the lungs.   But what if they had another unfortunate projectile wound they had to heal from in that moment?  What if they got hit by 10, 20, 30 coins in the moments leading up to that last breath.  How much faster does using stormlight to heal oozing coin shot wounds run a radiant out than just using it for all their other options?   I think this is where the big hangup is. 

That and how are they kitted out?  Do we have a lightweaver with a sack of spheres only or do we have a lightweaver with a sack of spheres and spheres weaved into all of their clothing?   

How much metal would you carry into this fight?  Knowing about aluminum and not worrying that your extra vials will be used against you?   What is a shaving of pewter anyways?  They can carry enough for days worth just as easily as we see radiants do.  And they do carry days worth when it calls for it.  

We see radiants going out and kitting out for extended missions.  Days and weeks in length.  Mistborn only load up long enough to have a suspenseful fight one night at a time coming back to their home base fairly often.  

This is one fight.  I think norms are kind of different for each based on what they are gearing up for.  

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am curious how well the lightweaver recognizes their own illusions.  Can Shallan see through her illusions

No they can't - in OB when sneaking into Kholinar, Shallan created an illusion of a rock, where they hide, but she had to make eyeholes for them to look outside. Also in WoR she created an illusion of a wall to hide herself from Ghostblood following her - she couldn't tell what was outside.

Mistborn can just shoot coins in all directions, to see which one would pass through, and which one would meet some resistance.

[Frustration]

Just throwing up a massive illusion and then sneaking up on a Mistborn should be effective.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Just throwing up a massive illusion and then sneaking up on a Mistborn should be effective.

Then they both can't see, but Mistborn can sense Shardblade being summoned and use of other surges with bronze and hear steps and breathing with Tin, and throw coins in every direction to see and feel them hitting something. Mistborn have an advantage.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Then they both can't see, but Mistborn can sense Shardblade being summoned and use of other surges with bronze and hear steps and breathing with Tin, and throw coins in every direction to see and feel them hitting something. Mistborn have an advantage.

Lightwevaer can see their soul, and thus have pinpoint acuracy on them.

[Wits instant noodles he/him]

dont know if this has been addressed before but could a mistborn use bronze to sense an illusion? cause this would be a big advantage.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Wits instant noodles said:

dont know if this has been addressed before but could a mistborn use bronze to sense an illusion? cause this would be a big advantage.

Yes, but I don't think it's that much of an advantage. It becomes a mind game: The Lightweaver will be approaching in an illusion, but they know that I know that, so they will make an illusion as a diversion, and I should prepare for them to come without an illusion.

However they know, that I know that they know that, so they will use multiple illusion distractions, and also come with an illusion themselves.

 

It becomes a psychological war, that no one can really win.

[Wits instant noodles he/him]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes, but I don't think it's that much of an advantage. It becomes a mind game: The Lightweaver will be approaching in an illusion, but they know that I know that, so they will make an illusion as a diversion, and I should prepare for them to come without an illusion.

However they know, that I know that they know that, so they will use multiple illusion distractions, and also come with an illusion themselves.

 

It becomes a psychological war, that no one can really win.

but it would also stop the light weaver from hiding things or themselves by creating illusions cause the mistborn can just tell oh hey that's not a real rock. also copperclouds. do we know how they interact with illusions? cause we have WoBs that say they could stop lashings if powerful enough so would it be able to cancel out illusions and soulcasting? I would think so.

[Frustration]

22 minutes ago, Wits instant noodles said:

also copperclouds. do we know how they interact with illusions?

Nope.

22 minutes ago, Wits instant noodles said:

cause we have WoBs that say they could stop lashings if powerful enough so would it be able to cancel out illusions and soulcasting? I would think so.

Um, no, not at all. The only WoB on that is this one, which says the exact opposite.

Spoiler

hutonahill

Does a coppercloud affect Lashings?

Brandon Sanderson

As I have designed it right now no, but it is an interaction that I haven't yet had to canonize.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15343

 

 

 

[alder24]

51 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes, but I don't think it's that much of an advantage. It becomes a mind game: The Lightweaver will be approaching in an illusion, but they know that I know that, so they will make an illusion as a diversion, and I should prepare for them to come without an illusion.

However they know, that I know that they know that, so they will use multiple illusion distractions, and also come with an illusion themselves.

 

It becomes a psychological war, that no one can really win.

Well, to be fair, Mistborn can shoot metals in every direction, thus checking which illusion is hiding an object behind, and by this knowing where Lightweaver is hiding.

[Frustration]

Just now, alder24 said:

Well, to be fair, Mistborn can shoot metals in every direction, thus checking which illusion is hiding an object behind, and by this knowing where Lightweaver is hiding.

Well if the coins passes through it, you either missed the Lightweaver, or they aren't there.

If the coins hits something, then something is under the illusion, but you don't know what.

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If the coins hits something, then something is under the illusion, but you don't know what.

Except if it hits Lightweaver, you may lose or weaken the steel line to it, as it's passing through a highly invested object, that is healing itself. Mistborn will notice this immediately.

[Wits instant noodles he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Um, no, not at all. The only WoB on that is this one, which says the exact opposit

hmm let me look i swear there was one that said a very powerful copper cloud could stop someone from creating lashings I could be completely wrong but let me keep looking.

[alder24]

On 7.02.2023 at 7:55 PM, Frustration said:

Lightwevaer can see their soul, and thus have pinpoint acuracy on them.

I just realized something while reading about Aviars. Aviars, like Kokerlii, hide the presence of a mind from predators hunting by sensing the mind. So what Aviars do is hide their cognitive aspects, and this is probably hidden in CR, because I suspect those predators partially exist in, or can look into CR, like sprens. This ability also affects other invested abilities of sensing, like coppercloud (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/312/#e8897). Because of how Aviar's ability is described, and how similar it is to coppercloud, I suspect burning copper not only hides people in the surrounding area from bronze, but it also affects CR, hiding the "flame" of people affected by a coppercloud. Which would mean that they would be unseen in CR, possibly even hiding some invested items, like metalminds, with it. Copperclouds could even literally manifest in CR, which I think would work even better, considering copperclouds can be pierced, like Vin did it.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I just realized something while reading about Aviars. Aviars, like Kokerlii, hide the presence of a mind from predators hunting by sensing the mind. So what Aviars do is hide their cognitive aspects, and this is probably hidden in CR, because I suspect those predators partially exist in, or can look into CR, like sprens. This ability also affects other invested abilities of sensing, like coppercloud (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/312/#e8897). Because of how Aviar's ability is described, and how similar it is to coppercloud, I suspect burning copper not only hides people in the surrounding area from bronze, but it also affects CR, hiding the "flame" of people affected by a coppercloud. Which would mean that they would be unseen in CR, possibly even hiding some invested items, like metalminds, with it. Copperclouds could even literally manifest in CR, which I think would work even better, considering copperclouds can be pierced, like Vin did it.

Huh, I had never considered that. Now I don't think it is the case, as I think those predators are detecting their minds, not seeing the Cognitive, but that could be the case.

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Huh, I had never considered that. Now I don't think it is the case, as I think those predators are detecting their minds, not seeing the Cognitive, but that could be the case.

But how do you detect a mind without looking into CR? That's the realm of mind. Those predators are more like Jasnah during OB battle, as I can't see any other way to "detect a mind" in PR.

[Frustration]

Just now, alder24 said:

But how do you detect a mind without looking into CR? That's the realm of mind. Those predators are more like Jasnah during OB battle, as I can't see any other way to "detect a mind" in PR.

Lifesense allows you to do it.

[alder24]

Just now, Frustration said:

Lifesense allows you to do it.

Which more or less detects innate investiture, as Drabs are unseen by it. So it isn't detecting the mind, just investiture. While I'm not dismissing the idea that this is how it might work, I feel those are two separate "things". The question would be then, could those predators detect Drabs? To this there is no answer.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Which more or less detects innate investiture, as Drabs are unseen by it. So it isn't detecting the mind, just investiture. While I'm not dismissing the idea that this is how it might work, I feel those are two separate "things".

Intelligence and Investiture are pretty interrelated.

Spoiler

DrogaKrolow

Sentient machines, artificial intelligence. Would they be able to use Investiture? Or not? How would that work?

Brandon Sanderson

So, define "use Investiture". Like, there's a lot of different ways to quote-unquote use Investiture.

DrogaKrolow

OK, I don't mean the medallions but like if I go and peek into the Spiritual Realm and I look at the machine, do I see Investiture inside it? The Connections to the Shards and so on?

Brandon Sanderson

Chances are good that you will. But I have to add a big asterisk to that, it's gonna depend on so many factors. But consciousness in the cosmere is directly tied to  Investiture. And creating a machine in many ways cosmerelogically is not that different from creating a child.

DrogaKrolow

Okay... Interesting.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. I'll just leave it there.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/124/#e1817

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cometaryorbit]

They are definitely related... but drabs are still fully sapient, they just experience the world less vividly. OTOH, drabs don't literally have zero Investiture... but life sense can't detect them at all, though it can detect *grass*. Which has way less mind than a drab, and probably less Investiture too.

So I think it's not quite that simple*.

IMO Patji predators' mind-sense is not identical to Nalthian lifestyle. It's a similar Cosmere mechanism - but slight differences might be important. I think it might still sense drabs, but a coppercloud would block it - that Aviar power seems pretty directly analogous to Allomantic copper.

I think the mind-sense would work on a Cognitive level, like Allomantic copper and bronze do - but not fully "seeing into the Cognitive Realm" the way we see it done on Roshar. Vin burning copper is sensing something Cognitive, but she doesn't see the mist-landscape of the Scadrian Cognitive Realm.

(I think Nalthian life sense is probably working through a Cognitive medium, even if what it's detecting is ultimately Spiritual Investiture, since it's proximity based. But so is era 1 Atium Allomancy, so who knows.)

*Life sense is also super weird because if it's detecting Investiture, it's detecting static/Innate Investiture, which most methods don't do. Things like the screaming voidspren in OB, white sand, and Allomantic Bronze detect kinetic Investiture specifically.

Edited March 3, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Sky Breaker]

I think that the light weaver would be hard pressed to lose because they have an insta kill weapon that granted has a short range but they could always make a billion illusions including one around themselves and that would be very confusing to their bronze senses and while they are confused just kill them