Frustraion's Firepower Index: Nalthis

[Frustration]

Welcome to Frustration's Firepower Index, a collection of threads giving a comprehensive analysis of each cosmere world's combat capabilities. This thread will focus on the world of Nalthis, as it appears in Warbreaker, with some additional knowledge from The Lost Metal.

 

Shards: Nalthis is home to the Shard Endowment who plays an active role in the planet's affairs. 2/4.5

 

Dawnshards: Nalthis has no known Dawnshards. 0/1

 

Defenses: The sole perpendicualrity on Nalthis is located within the Kingdom of Hallandren, and is known to the kingdom, with established customs agencies there, giving them warning against threats of invasion via the perpendicularity. The land near the perpendicularity is also frequented by earthquakes and storms, while having several nearby mountains, making invasion difficult.

Spoiler

ccstat

A recent analysis on 17th Shard noted that the geography of Hallandren suggests it is an area with frequent and powerful earthquakes. Is this correct? Does Hallandren have substantial tectonic activity?

Brandon Sanderson

It does.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 18, 2015)

Brandon Sanderson

The Pahn Kahl Religion

In the Siri section, she mentions the Pahn Kahl religion, but she doesn't know what it is. This happens numerous times in the book, people getting confused about whether the Pahn Kahl are just Hallandren or being unable to describe their religion.

If you're curious, the Pahn Kahl are nature worshippers who focus on the storms of the Inner Sea as a manifestation of their unity of five gods. They believe that all Returned are men who deny the power of the gods and are forbidden entrance into heaven, yet are otherwise just men and not sinners worthy of hell—so they're given a chance to come back to have another try at life, to try to find belief this time.

Anyway, the purpose of having people so confused about the Pahn Kahl was to try to make readers vague about them in the same way. In this case, I want the reader to feel that the Pahn Kahl are unimportant, like the characters do, which is exactly the reason why the Pahn Kahl are so annoyed in the first place. If Hallandren didn't take them for granted so much, there's a good chance they wouldn't be so inclined to rebel.

Warbreaker Annotations (Nov. 23, 2010)

2/5.5

 

Offenses: Nalthis has no geographical restrictions on it's magic system, allowing it to be easily taken off world. Additionally Returned can sustain themselves on ambient investiture, from other worlds. Their lifeless also do not need food, drink, or sleep  1/1

 

Natural Advantages: Nalthis has the second lowest population of major shardworlds

Spoiler

wackyHair

What's the population of the shardworld's we've seen so far (even in very general terms, like one's much bigger than the others or something)?

Brandon Sanderson

Scadrial is certainly the least populated of the major shard worlds. Then Nalthis, I'd guess, followed by Roshar, and finally Sel--which likely has the largest population. I would have to look closely to see which is bigger between those last two.

Phantine

Does a population of about 100 million during The Final Empire (with 1-2 million in Luthadel), and around 15 million during Alloy of Law (with about 5 million in Elendel) seem right?

Brandon Sanderson

Have to RAFO this for now, for reasons I can't explain without giving spoilers.

Phantine

How about as far as Elend/Wax knows, at the beginning of their respective series?

Brandon Sanderson

Then those numbers, if they're off, are at least close.

faragorn

Interesting that Sel has such a large population, given that the actual numbers of soldiers shown seem to be quite small.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that Opelon has an inflated opinion of its own size in relation to the rest of the world.

Footnote: The RAFO about the Scadrian population may be due to the existence of the Southerners, which had not been revealed as of this time.
/r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015)

-1/2

 

Armed Forces: There are several military powers on Nalthis, but the only known ones of relevance is Hallandren, and the Idrian coalition.

Hallandren: Hallandren has around a thousand of Kalad's Phantoms, stone warriors who can move faster than regular people, and are all but immune to most conventional forms of damage. They also have a high concentration of awakeners, and Susebron, who has around 50,000 breath, and know how to make lifeless with a single breath.

Idrian coalition: exists.

3/12

 

Economics and Technology: Nalthis has developed trade routes both through mountain passes, and across the Bright Sea. They use medieval weaponry, with nothing more advanced than swords being shown. 1/7.5

 

Logistics:

• On World: Nalthis has maintained roads, shipping lanes, and mountain passes. They also have lifeless who can run or row forever, without food, water or sleep. 3.5/10
• Off world: Nalthis has established trade off world, as well as easy access the perpendicularity. They also have lifeless who can run or row forever. 2.5/3

 

Intelligence: Drabs are harder to notice by people, and awakened objects can find hidden objects or passageways. 2.5/10.5

Counterintelligence: People with a lot of breath can detect people and spren's lifeforce. Additonally they might be able to tell that someone from another world is both a human and doesn't have breath. And they can make codded locks that can tell if you stole the codes. At seventh heightening they can even sense invested objects. 4/9

 

Allies: Nalthis has no allies. 0/1

 

Notable uses of investiture: Awakened clothing can provide additional strength, absorb impacts and other functions. Life sense allows them to sense when they are being looked at as well as when kinetic investiture is being used nearby. 7th heightening, while rare also allows them to sense dormant investiture. Additionally awakened objects and Returned have some divination abilities, and can determine the intents of those using them. +3

 

Recommended Strategies: Nalthis is in a rather unique position, as of now it is an average power, but it has the potential to be so much more. Awakening is the magic system responsible for perhaps the single most dangerous object in the entire cosmere. If Nalthis can learn the full extent of its magic they stand poised to be a force capable of dominating the entire Cosmere.

 

Overall ranking: 23.5/67

 

As before I am interested in hearing you thoughts, did I miss anything? What did you think of the ranking?

Edited October 24, 2023 by Frustration

[lacrossedeamon]

Nalthis has the second lowest, not second highest. Also of note that even though Awakening with keyed Investiture hasn't been figured out keyed Investiture can still be used to keep Returned alive instead of Breath which has implication for off world activities. Semi-sentient/sapient objects are also becoming more prevalent.

[Frustration]

10 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Nalthis has the second lowest, not second highest.

Ack, thanks how'd I switch those two up.

10 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Also of note that even though Awakening with keyed Investiture hasn't been figured out keyed Investiture can still be used to keep Returned alive instead of Breath which has implication for off world activities. Semi-sentient/sapient objects are also becoming more prevalent.

That is something to keep in mind thak you.

[+Oltux72]

This analysis leaves out an extreme logistical advantage on the offensive. Lifeless need no food or drink. That makes them uniquely suited to operations in the Cognitive Realm.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

This analysis leaves out an extreme logistical advantage on the offensive. Lifeless need no food or drink. That makes them uniquely suited to operations in the Cognitive Realm.

That is a great point thanks.

[+Oltux72]

On 30.12.2022 at 0:42 AM, Frustration said:

That is a great point thanks.

And I forgot tat this advantage applies also on land and water. The Lifeless really give Nalthis a logistical advantage far above their level of technology.

The key drawback of land transport in preindustrial times was that your means of transport need to eat.If you use Lifeless draft animals that disadvantage goes away. And they can pull day and night without rest. Hence you are also much faster than conventional land transport and you can give convoys armed escorts without much of a logistical burden.
This also applies to ships. Lifeless oarsmen can operate continously without food or water.

I think the index needs its own section for logistical capabilities.

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I think the index needs its own section for logistical capabilities.

I'm inclined to agree, though that will probably take longer to implement than the other changes.

[alder24]

On 10.12.2022 at 5:15 AM, Frustration said:

Armed Forces: There are several military powers on Nalthis, but the only known one of relevance is Hallandren.

The whole point of Warbreaker book was to prevent another Manywar, which would ended with total destruction of Hallandren. This clearly suggest, that Idrian coalition would be more powerful force to be recon with. What's more important, Yesteel possess the knowledge of creating Type 4 entities, which would be a total game changer in any military conflict.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Lightsong Thinks about How Hallandren Wouldn't Fall

He's wrong here. If he hadn't intervened and taken responsibility, the God King would have died, and another Manywar would have begun. It would have ended with Hallandren in flames, destroyed by the advancing Idrian coalition, who by then would have gained the secret to creating swords like Nightblood from Yesteel, who is hiding in one of the kingdoms across the mountains and who secretly knows what Vasher did to create the sword. He would have brought his kingdom into the conflict. And the world would have burned.

Warbreaker Annotations (March 21, 2011)

Thus I suggest including a "Idrian coalition" force to the Armed Forces category.

 

Also Returned  has some kind of future visions ability and can act on this, as we've seen with Lightsong. This would potentially mean that Returned would be send with a special task of changing the course of war, which would be hard to oppose and predict. This might be included in Shard section, idk.

[Frustration]

29 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The whole point of Warbreaker book was to prevent another Manywar, which would ended with total destruction of Hallandren. This clearly suggest, that Idrian coalition would be more powerful force to be recon with. What's more important, Yesteel possess the knowledge of creating Type 4 entities, which would be a total game changer in any military conflict.

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

Lightsong Thinks about How Hallandren Wouldn't Fall

He's wrong here. If he hadn't intervened and taken responsibility, the God King would have died, and another Manywar would have begun. It would have ended with Hallandren in flames, destroyed by the advancing Idrian coalition, who by then would have gained the secret to creating swords like Nightblood from Yesteel, who is hiding in one of the kingdoms across the mountains and who secretly knows what Vasher did to create the sword. He would have brought his kingdom into the conflict. And the world would have burned.

Warbreaker Annotations (March 21, 2011)

Thus I suggest including a "Idrian coalition" force to the Armed Forces category.

That's a good point

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Also Returned  has some kind of future visions ability and can act on this, as we've seen with Lightsong. This would potentially mean that Returned would be send with a special task of changing the course of war, which would be hard to oppose and predict. This might be included in Shard section, idk.

I'm going to put that under the Inteligence section when I get around to it.

[cometaryorbit]

Under the Armed Forces section for Hallandren, their Lifeless army should be mentioned. I believe it's four units of 10,000 = 40,000 total.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Under the Armed Forces section for Hallandren, their Lifeless army should be mentioned. I believe it's four units of 10,000 = 40,000 total.

Those were all destroyed by the Phantoms at the end of the book though.

[cometaryorbit]

Hmmm, ok, good point. They would likely be recreated relatively soon (compared to Stormlight/Era 2 time period), but if this is as of the end of the book (and it kind of needs to be since we don't know about advancements later) yeah it's gone.

[lacrossedeamon]

TotES has new Nalthian technology

Spoiler

Tablets using Awakened Connection circuitry. Riina's ship AI seems to be an Awakened entity. 

 

[iceblade44]

 

4 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

TotES has new Nalthian technology

  Hide contents

Tablets using Awakened Connection circuitry. Riina's ship AI seems to be an Awakened entity. 

 

Indeed which means in the space age, we can see Nalthis in another lens, ie. They are where you go for robots and AI. Which is pretty cool.

[Tglassy]

This wasn't mentioned, but Returned themselves.  Currently, in Hallandran, the Returned are revered as Gods, but after some consideration, I would put them on par with Mistborn, Feruchemists and even some Knights Radiants, partcularly if trained well.

They're immortal, so they could live a LONG time, even if most don't.  They have Superhuman Strength and Speed, which suggests, to me, that they might be stronger and faster than someone burning Pewter.  They also have some shapeshifting capabiilty, and do not need to eat or drink to survive.  They just need Investiture, of which there are countless ways to get.  And they do not atrophy.  They remain as strong as they are potentially forever.

We haven't really seen them in combat much, but a Returned wearing Awakened Gear is a powerhouse, as seen by Vasher and Denth.  Awakeners would be considered seperate from Returned, but since they can fairly easily go together, that makes them on par with any Knight Radiant.  

So basically, they have a good counter against any invading Invested individuals.  The only thing I can compare them to is, actually, Heralds.  But Heralds can get drunk and go insane.  Returned cannot, according to the Coppermind.  Heralds are PROBABLY on a higher level than Returned, but they are quite similar beings.  One is just made from Honor's Investiture, and one from endowment's.

Also interesting note, the Coppermind says Returned actually RETAIN their souls when they return, unlike what Zahel believes.  Zahel believes himself to be, essentially, power made sentient in a dead body, infused as the soul was left behind, but that's apparently not the case.  

Edited January 11, 2023 by Tglassy

[Frustration]

17 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

This wasn't mentioned, but Returned themselves.  Currently, in Hallandran, the Returned are revered as Gods, but after some consideration, I would put them on par with Mistborn, Feruchemists and even some Knights Radiants, partcularly if trained well.

They're immortal, so they could live a LONG time, even if most don't.  They have Superhuman Strength and Speed, which suggests, to me, that they might be stronger and faster than someone burning Pewter.  They also have some shapeshifting capabiilty, and do not need to eat or drink to survive.  They just need Investiture, of which there are countless ways to get.  And they do not atrophy.  They remain as strong as they are potentially forever.  

Returned (from what I recall, and it has been a few weeks since I read Warbreaker) aren't so much stronger than regular people, as that they are the pinical of human capacity. Basically they are Olympic level athletes in everything, without trying.

And they don't get tired.

[Tglassy]

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Returned (from what I recall, and it has been a few weeks since I read Warbreaker) aren't so much stronger than regular people, as that they are the pinical of human capacity. Basically they are Olympic level athletes in everything, without trying.

And they don't get tired.

I was going by what the Coppermind said.  It used the word "Superhuman".

But even if it is just that they are all Captain America, that's insane.  For those who don't know, Captain America's "powers" is that he is, at the same time, as strong as the strongest human ever, as fast as the fastest human ever, as agile/flexible as the most agile/flexible human ever, and has the endurance of the longest distance runners.  He can sprint at top speed forever without getting tired.  Most weight lifters either go for endurance or strength, because its nearly impossible to have both.  The strongest man in the world, Louis Cyr, is recorded to have lifted a platform on his back holding 18 men weighing over 4,000 pounds, lifting over 500 lbs with a single finger, push a freight car up an incline, and held ropes tied to four horses, two in each hand, and held them in place as they whipped the horses trying to pull him.  He is on reccord doing these things.  Captain America can do that without getting tired.  

Which means that's what you're saying Returned can do.  They can do all those feats of strength and hold them without getting tired, and can run as fast as Usain Bolt.  The sheer combination makes them, very possibly, some of the most potent invested individuals in the cosemere.  Even Mistborn Pewterdragging get tired, and it's dangerous for them do to it.  A Returned could have made those trips without even getting winded.  The Coppermind actually says the Divine Breath is a Splinter of Endowment.  Scadrial only had one Splinter.  Nalthas has dozens, and more all the time.  

Edit: the main issue is, in the books, they don't DO much.  They live lives of indulgence and gluttony.  But that's just it.  They don't atrophy.  They don't wear down.  They will always be that strong, no matter their lifestyle.  That's insane.  

Edited January 11, 2023 by Tglassy

[TheoreticalMagic]

On 1/8/2023 at 7:10 AM, iceblade44 said:

 

Indeed which means in the space age, we can see Nalthis in another lens, ie. They are where you go for robots and AI. Which is pretty cool.

I'm really excited about this because it fits into a theory I've had simmering for years, about Awakening's potential in the space age. I'm still working out the kinks, but I've long been of the opinion that Nalthis could achieve a magical form of nanotechnology....the key lies in the balance of what materials are used to create the nanobots, deploying them in 'formations' that can mimic human shape to optimize Investiture, and combining all of this with the quantum mechanics that influence/govern the difference between sentient and nonsentient spren on Roshar, in order to create an Identity phenomenon that acts as kind of the Investiture Physics version of wave/particle duality. In essence creating a Schrodinger's Sentience effect wherein nanobots meant to work in sync can be granted or imbued with a sense of Identity that lets them all see themselves as part of one singular whole, and thus susceptible to one singular Awakening Command....but still retain or be able to flip to a more individualized sense of self so that each individual nanobot can then execute that Command individually rather than as part of the whole.....and thus open up the full range of possibilities inherent in magic-derived nanotechnology.

Like I said, its complicated and I'm still trying to figure out the nuances of how to make it work, given that there's a lot we don't know still about Commands and the specific mechanics of Awakening, but the possibilities with Awakened nanotech are pretty damn limitless and could theoretically make Nalthis the real dark horse of the cosmere space age.

Edited January 11, 2023 by TheoreticalMagic

[Valigus]

On 12/9/2022 at 11:15 PM, Frustration said:

Welcome to Frustration's Firepower Index, a collection of threads giving a comprehensive analysis of each cosmere world's combat capabilities. This thread will focus on the world of Nalthis, as it appears in Warbreaker, with some additional knowledge from The Lost Metal.

 

Shards: Nalthis is home to the Shard Endowment who plays an active role in the planet's affairs. 2/4.5

 

Dawnshards: Nalthis has no known Dawnshards. 0/1

 

Defenses: The sole perpendicualrity on Nalthis is located within the Kingdom of Hallandren, and is known to the kingdom, with established customs agencies there, giving them warning against threats of invasion via the perpendicularity. The land near the perpendicularity is also frequented by earthquakes and storms, while having several nearby mountains, making invasion difficult.

  Hide contents

ccstat

A recent analysis on 17th Shard noted that the geography of Hallandren suggests it is an area with frequent and powerful earthquakes. Is this correct? Does Hallandren have substantial tectonic activity?

Brandon Sanderson

It does.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 18, 2015)

Brandon Sanderson

The Pahn Kahl Religion

In the Siri section, she mentions the Pahn Kahl religion, but she doesn't know what it is. This happens numerous times in the book, people getting confused about whether the Pahn Kahl are just Hallandren or being unable to describe their religion.

If you're curious, the Pahn Kahl are nature worshippers who focus on the storms of the Inner Sea as a manifestation of their unity of five gods. They believe that all Returned are men who deny the power of the gods and are forbidden entrance into heaven, yet are otherwise just men and not sinners worthy of hell—so they're given a chance to come back to have another try at life, to try to find belief this time.

Anyway, the purpose of having people so confused about the Pahn Kahl was to try to make readers vague about them in the same way. In this case, I want the reader to feel that the Pahn Kahl are unimportant, like the characters do, which is exactly the reason why the Pahn Kahl are so annoyed in the first place. If Hallandren didn't take them for granted so much, there's a good chance they wouldn't be so inclined to rebel.

Warbreaker Annotations (Nov. 23, 2010)

2/5

 

Offenses: Nalthis has no geographical restrictions on it's magic system, allowing it to be easily taken off world. Additionally Returned can sustain themselves on ambient investiture, from other worlds. Their lifeless also do not need food, drink, or sleep  1/1

 

Natural Advantages: Nalthis has the second lowest population of major shardworlds

  Hide contents

wackyHair

What's the population of the shardworld's we've seen so far (even in very general terms, like one's much bigger than the others or something)?

Brandon Sanderson

Scadrial is certainly the least populated of the major shard worlds. Then Nalthis, I'd guess, followed by Roshar, and finally Sel--which likely has the largest population. I would have to look closely to see which is bigger between those last two.

Phantine

Does a population of about 100 million during The Final Empire (with 1-2 million in Luthadel), and around 15 million during Alloy of Law (with about 5 million in Elendel) seem right?

Brandon Sanderson

Have to RAFO this for now, for reasons I can't explain without giving spoilers.

Phantine

How about as far as Elend/Wax knows, at the beginning of their respective series?

Brandon Sanderson

Then those numbers, if they're off, are at least close.

faragorn

Interesting that Sel has such a large population, given that the actual numbers of soldiers shown seem to be quite small.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that Opelon has an inflated opinion of its own size in relation to the rest of the world.

Footnote: The RAFO about the Scadrian population may be due to the existence of the Southerners, which had not been revealed as of this time.
/r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015)

-1/2

 

Armed Forces: There are several military powers on Nalthis, but the only known ones of relevance is Hallandren, and the Idrian coalition.

Hallandren: Hallandren has around a thousand of Kalad's Phantoms, stone warriors who can move faster than regular people, and are all but immune to most conventional forms of damage. They also have a high concentration of awakeners, and Susebron, who has around 50,000 breath, and know how to make lifeless with a single breath.

Idrian coalition: exists.

3/12

 

Economics and Technology: Nalthis has developed trade routes both through mountain passes, and across the Bright Sea. They use medieval weaponry, with nothing more advanced than swords being shown. 1/6

 

Logistics:

• On World: Nalthis has maintained roads, shipping lanes, and mountain passes. They also have lifeless who can run or row forever, without food, water or sleep. 3.5/9.5
• Off world: Nalthis has established trade off world, as well as easy access the perpendicularity. They also have lifeless who can run or row forever. 2.5/3

 

Intelligence: Drabs are harder to notice by people, and awakened objects can find hidden objects or passageways. 2.5/10.5

Counterintelligence: People with a lot of breath can detect people and spren's lifeforce. Additonally they might be able to tell that someone from another world is both a human and doesn't have breath. And they can make codded locks that can tell if you stole the codes. At seventh heightening they can even sense invested objects. 4/9

 

Notable uses of investiture: Awakened clothing can provide additional strength, absorb impacts and other functions. Life sense allows them to sense when they are being looked at as well as when kinetic investiture is being used nearby. 7th heightening, while rare also allows them to sense dormant investiture. Additionally awakened objects and Returned have some divination abilities, and can determine the intents of those using them. +3

 

Recommended Strategies: Nalthis is in a rather unique position, as of now it is an average power, but it has the potential to be so much more. Awakening is the magic system responsible for perhaps the single most dangerous object in the entire cosmere. If Nalthis can learn the full extent of its magic they stand poised to be a force capable of dominating the entire Cosmere.

 

Overall ranking: 23.5/63.5

 

As before I am interested in hearing you thoughts, did I miss anything? What did you think of the ranking?

I think lifeless should probably count for more militarily, they are relatively few but the logistical advantages are huge, not to mention they are probably the only military force in the cosmere shown to date capable of reasonably beating rosharan troops in morale and maybe in skill.