Frustration's Firepower Index: Scadrial

[Frustration]

Welcome to Frustration's Firepower Index or the FFI, a collection of threads where I make a comprehensive analysis of every Cosmere worlds combat capabilities. This first thread wil be focused on Scadrial as it appears at the end of TLM.

 

Shards: Harmony is mostly impotent, though he does have Kandra who can act as spies for Scadrial. 2/4.5

 

Dawnshards: Scadrial has no known Dawnshards. 0/1

 

Defenses: Scadrial has a rather standard set of defenses, other than that their Cognitive realm being largely composed of mists that no non-invested object can float on. Harmony's perpendicularity is in mountains further south than the roughs, placing them near Lost Doriath. It is hundreds of miles from the basin, and might make an amphibious invasion easier than a land invasion. Now it does render the Seran Range mostly useless as the gap is nearly 25 miles wide and an invading force wouldn't lose much time making for it, but it does place them starting at a much higher altitude. Additionally the Ghostbloods say that the perpendicularity is closely watched, though I'm not sure how much we can trust that as the Set got their jars of identity free investiture from somewhere off world, but it is something to keep in mind.

Now the rivers will not prove to be much of a barrier as an invading force has no reason to cross them, Elendel is the economic, political, and industrial capital of the basin, while also holding half the population, any deviation from that goal would be foolish.

The Malwish have several mountain ranges, and a few rivers, though it's unknown exactly how much of that land is inhabited. 3.5/5.5

 

 

Offenses: Scadrial has only a single perpendicularity, where the same mist Cognitive realm that defends them will also hold them in, preventing easy access to other worlds. They do not however have any geographical restrictions on their powers. -1/1

 

Natural advantages: Scadrial has average cosmere gravity making it easy for them to survive on most other worlds, however they also have the smallest population of any Major shardworld

Spoiler

wackyHair

What's the population of the shardworld's we've seen so far (even in very general terms, like one's much bigger than the others or something)?

Brandon Sanderson

Scadrial is certainly the least populated of the major shard worlds. Then Nalthis, I'd guess, followed by Roshar, and finally Sel--which likely has the largest population. I would have to look closely to see which is bigger between those last two.

Phantine

Does a population of about 100 million during The Final Empire (with 1-2 million in Luthadel), and around 15 million during Alloy of Law (with about 5 million in Elendel) seem right?

Brandon Sanderson

Have to RAFO this for now, for reasons I can't explain without giving spoilers.

Phantine

How about as far as Elend/Wax knows, at the beginning of their respective series?

Brandon Sanderson

Then those numbers, if they're off, are at least close.

faragorn

Interesting that Sel has such a large population, given that the actual numbers of soldiers shown seem to be quite small.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that Opelon has an inflated opinion of its own size in relation to the rest of the world.

Footnote: The RAFO about the Scadrian population may be due to the existence of the Southerners, which had not been revealed as of this time.
/r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015)

-1/2

 

Armed forces: There are 3 major groups, and two small ones of interest. They are: Elendel Basin, The Malwish, The Maskless, and The Ghostbloods.

• Elendel Basin has a standing army of ~10,000 and a misting population of 1 in 1000(BoM 190) with much rarer feruchemists and twinborn
  Spoiler

  Kaymyth (parapharased) (paraphrased)

  I asked another question about the population levels of Mistings, Ferrings, and Twinborn.

  Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

  The numbers in the [Alloy of Law Mistborn Adventure Game] supplement are off. (It states the occurrence of Mistings/Ferrings is 1 in 50 people.) He said that they're not terrible, but they definitely are shown as somewhat more common than they really are. But he also said that they're not nearly as rare as people seem to think; for example, he stated that virtually everyone would know at least one Coinshot. So there are definitely a lot of Allomancers around.

  And the occurrence of Twinborn would not be a normal statistical spread (alas).  As folks opined before in this thread, the Terris folk do tend to keep somewhat to themselves, so there's not a huge amount of population mix.  So Twinborn will be rarer.

  I did point out that there had to be some mix, else we'd be seeing full Feruchemists around, and to that he mostly just smiled and looked mysterious.  As he does.

  Footnote: Kaymyth later clarified that Brandon said that the MAG numbers are too high.
  ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015)

  They have a single small airship, and perhaps a dozen allomantic grenades, and medallions. They also have a few harmonium+trellium bombs but they have no way to replace them. They have guns, machine guns, artillery, short range missiles, and a decent understanding of Hemalurgy.

• The Malwish have a lot of airships, medallions, allomantic grenades, and the Bands of Mourning. They also have a source of Harmonium, though they have less metalborn than Elendel, and will freeze to death in mildly cold weather without medallions.

• The Maskless exist.

• The Ghostbloods have several members with off world investiture, but not many. They do however have knowledge of most cosmere worlds, and Electrolysis for aluminum.

• Koloss. Koloss have a few thousand members and have the knowledge of how to make more from existing spikes, though they don't know how to make more spikes.

7/12

 

Economics& technology: Elendel basin is well developed, with several companies, publicly traded stock, and eternally fertile fields meaning a stable food supply. They also have trains for quick transport within the basin, and canned food which will keep for long periods of time. They have radio and telegraphs. They also have cannons, short range missiles, and low range anti-aircraft weapons. 6/7.5

 

Logistics:

On World: Scadrial has overseas shipping, trains, roads, cars, trucks, rivers, canals and airships. They also have industrial manufacturing, and canned food. 8/10

Off World: Scadrial's perpendicularity is far from any population centers, or transportation infastructure. The mountanous terrain, also means that airships or hicking is required to access it. Additionally the mists only allowing invested objects to float limits both the amount, and the frequency of their off world shippments. -4.5/3

 

Intelligence: Kandra can almost perfectly imitate all noninvested people, copperclouds can hide people from investiture detection. Tineyes and windwhisperers can listen in on conversations far way, and Connector ferrings and emotional allomancers, can influence others. 7/10.5

Counterintelligence: Bronze can detect investiture. 1/9

 

Allies: The ghostbloods may have some off world allies, and it is implied that they have a standing alliance with one of the Aethers, but for now I can't make a definitive call. 0/1.

 

Notable invested abilities: aluminum allomantic grenades act as suppression

Spoiler

Rodrigo

What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades?

Brandon Sanderson

We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones?

*Matt affirms*

So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense?

But, my intent is to get to the point where it's doing things like this, right. Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents. That's convenient, right? Like, I want more of the powers to be relevant and these grenades are a way to do that.

You know, Marasi's power is not the most useful on the planet to have herself. For those who don't know, she can slow down time... well, speed up time? Awkward how... the phrasing of how you do that. But basically she can make a bubble around herself where everyone outside of it moves super fast. That's not terribly useful, right? Unless you want to age, you know, really slowly.

[...]

Not really useful in combat, to be able to be like "Yeah, I'm gonna make all my enemies move really, really fast and I can't respond to them". But, she can charge up one of those grenades and toss it, it becomes real handy. For her, the grenades are more useful than the inverse, right, because speeding up someone is useful, but slowing someone down takes someone out of the battle essentially. Or a whole globe of them... globe is the wrong term, but yeah.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

and A-chromium can drain investiture, and Hemalurgy could steal any off world investiture they encounter. +3

 

Recommended strategies: Scadrial's strength is in speed, not power or numbers. The most effective strategy would be to attack before their opponent was ready. If Scadrial is to improve it's various factions will have to unite as alone they are all rather weak.

 

Overall ranking: 31/67

 

As always did I miss anything? What did you think of the rankings? And what should I work on next?

Edited October 24, 2023 by Frustration

[kenod]

So, question. Based on what I've seen in the VS threads, is this going to just be known current capabilities which have been demonstrated in-story, or if it's going to include speculation about what worlds can do in the future? And if so, is speculation going to be specifically marked as such?

Sidenote, probably useful to add that they're currently one of two factions that have firearms, including machine guns, which allow them to defeat basically any non-invested army that doesn't use them, as well as access to modern-level logistics like railroads and canned food, and can use these without requiring regular investure supply. This is a pretty huge advantage compared to worlds that don't have access to this. The same can be seen when comparing Soulcaster-equiped armies on Roshar with those which don't have them, and the advantage Lifeless give on Nalthis.

Being able to reliably support large armies and have flexible supply lines is a big deal, not to mention the benefit things like railroads give for things like mobilization. Your logistics are just as important in a war as weaponry, troop quality and strategy, and is often actually a big factor in the strategies countries employ in war.

Edited November 30, 2022 by kenod

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, kenod said:

So, question. Based on what I've seen in the VS threads, is this going to just be known current capabilities which have been demonstrated in-story, or if it's going to include speculation about what worlds can do in the future? And if so, is speculation going to be specifically marked as such?

The index will only be using confirmed current capabilities of each world as of the latest book/sample chapters in the series, unlike the vs. thread which places both worlds at the same time.

I will use known abilities from other books such as awakened locks, or universal soulstamps but I won't be speculating on potential development.

2 hours ago, kenod said:

Sidenote, probably useful to add that they're currently one of two factions that have firearms, including machine guns, 

I'd note that Moonlight doesn't specifically say that they are one of only two with guns, only that they were the second world to have them. And the first Scadrian firearms were from before The Final Empire*. But it would probably be good for me to include machine guns.

 

*As seen by this epigraph 

Quote

I have already mentioned that Rashek chose to use Khlenni architecture, which allowed him to construct large structures and gave him the civil engineering necessary to build a city as large as Luthadel. In other areas, however, he suppressed technological advancements. Gunpowder, for instance, was so frowned upon by Rashek that knowledge of its use disappeared almost as quickly as knowledge of the Terris religion.

2 hours ago, kenod said:

, as well as access to modern-level logistics like railroads and canned food, and can use these without requiring regular investure supply. This is a pretty huge advantage compared to worlds that don't have access to this. The same can be seen when comparing Soulcaster-equiped armies on Roshar with those which don't have them, and the advantage Lifeless give on Nalthis.

Being able to reliably support large armies and have flexible supply lines is a big deal, not to mention the benefit things like railroads give for things like mobilization. Your logistics are just as important in a war as weaponry, troop quality and strategy, and is often actually a big factor in the strategies countries employ in war.

Ack, I thought I had that, thank you, that is incredibly important, and I shouldn't have missed it.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[IndigoAjah]

I also think once you get crossover with other Investitures and worlds in such a hypothetical conflict, Scadrial has some really interesting applications and really useful applications of power.

 

Feruchemy has some really wicked abilities and with medallions can be used to stack up some truly potent combos but on a relatively large scale. Haematurgy is applicable to other people's powers (though not unique to Scadrial, they probably have the best knowledge of it). Allomancy has some so far unique time manipulation abilities as well as Leeching, Nicrosil boosting, emotional allomancy and copperclouding/seeking all being really versatile techniques that are hard to counter.

 

They would wage an unconventional Invested War (and have the additional troops of Kandra spies) but one that could be hard to defend against, especially when backed up with a really potent capacity for traditional warfare with guns, bombs, airships, mechanisation etc 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wolf Brother]

Scadrial also have Koloss, 10 foot tall warriors that can repopulate their ranks by taking the spikes of their fallen and turning the wounded/living enemies into more koloss.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Wolf Brother

[Frustration]

40 minutes ago, Wolf Brother said:

Scadrial also have Koloss, 10 foot tall warriors that can repopulate their ranks by taking the spikes of their fallen and turning the wounded/living enemies into more koloss.

That is true, probably should include them as a minor faction. 

[StanLemon]

An addition to the gun portion. Scadrial has reasonably long range artillery as well

[Frustration]

Just now, StanLemon said:

An addition to the gun portion. Scadrial has reasonably long range artillery as well

That is a good point, I'll add that.

[StanLemon]

I wish we knew how fast Malwish airships were. Our only hint is Kelsier's comment that he was twelve hours from Bilming and was over water. This implies that he was crossing the Sea of Lennes but that sea is so big that depending on where he was over the sea could have drastic implications on how fast the airships are.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I wish we knew how fast Malwish airships were. Our only hint is Kelsier's comment that he was twelve hours from Bilming and was over water. This implies that he was crossing the Sea of Lennes but that sea is so big that depending on where he was over the sea could have drastic implications on how fast the airships are.

The lifeboat they take in BoM is noted as being slower than a train(BoM 331) and we see horses catch the train that Wax and Co. are on, so probably around 25 mph.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[kenod]

14 hours ago, IndigoAjah said:

I also think once you get crossover with other Investitures and worlds in such a hypothetical conflict, Scadrial has some really interesting applications and really useful applications of power.

 

Feruchemy has some really wicked abilities and with medallions can be used to stack up some truly potent combos but on a relatively large scale. Haematurgy is applicable to other people's powers (though not unique to Scadrial, they probably have the best knowledge of it). Allomancy has some so far unique time manipulation abilities as well as Leeching, Nicrosil boosting, emotional allomancy and copperclouding/seeking all being really versatile techniques that are hard to counter.

 

They would wage an unconventional Invested War (and have the additional troops of Kandra spies) but one that could be hard to defend against, especially when backed up with a really potent capacity for traditional warfare with guns, bombs, airships, mechanisation etc

Honestly, this. Scadrial's magic isn't too well-suited for conventional warfare, even if a couple parts are, but it's very good for unconventional warfare, such as secret ops.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

F-nicrosil and F-aluminum might be worth a point. It seems like medallions could be a pretty big deal once the Cosmere opens up a little more.

[Frustration]

22 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

F-nicrosil and F-aluminum might be worth a point. It seems like medallions could be a pretty big deal once the Cosmere opens up a little more.

It's possible, depending on how they interact with other magic systems. But I'm not going to award a point until they get to that point in the books.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

It's possible, depending on how they interact with other magic systems. But I'm not going to award a point until they get to that point in the books.

That makes sense. I'm just imagining a medallion that makes you an Elantrian or a Radiant. That would be some powerful stuff. Pretty hard to charge though.

[+Oltux72]

On 1.12.2022 at 3:38 PM, kenod said:

Honestly, this. Scadrial's magic isn't too well-suited for conventional warfare, even if a couple parts are, but it's very good for unconventional warfare, such as secret ops.

Well, no. They have artillery observers. People who can motivate troops. Means to allow an HQ to think things through. People who are strong enough to wear armor that will stop a bullet. People who can walk through a cloud of gas without protective equipment.

Scadral is more prone to produce assassins if you look at it with individual combat in mind. If you look at it from the point of supporting industrialized warfare, which includes logistics and combined arms, things change again. The key here is industrialized. It is true that other worlds are better at supporting preindustrial warfare. But you are not going to Soulcast an artillery shell and railways to move canned food remove a lot of the relative advantage of operating without logistical support for food.

[ScadrianTank]

On 01/12/2022 at 0:01 AM, Frustration said:

Defenses: Scadrial has few natural defenses, other than their Cognitive realm being largely composed of mists that no non-invested object can float on. The Malwish have some low mountains, lakes, and rivers but little else, and Elendel is largely exposed. 1/5

I don't see the point of this section, personally. Any Invested army won't be deterred by geology and mortal armies won't be able to cross Shadesmar.

On 01/12/2022 at 0:01 AM, Frustration said:

They also have cannons, short range missiles,

They're technically rockets - missiles can steer

On 01/12/2022 at 0:01 AM, Frustration said:

As always did I miss anything?

Long-range non-Invested comms in radio and telegraphs

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

I don't see the point of this section, personally. Any Invested army won't be deterred by geology and mortal armies won't be able to cross Shadesmar.

For the most part it's there for the same reason the Dawnshard section is, despite Scadrial not having one. It's to compare it to the world's that have things like category 5 hurricanes that circle the world every couple of days. And while things like technology and Investiture make geography less relevant than say during the middle ages, it is still(to my mind) a factor worth considering, if that makes sense.

17 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

They're technically rockets - missiles can steer

Is that the difference? Honestly I've just thought they were two words for the same thing.

17 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

Long-range non-Invested comms in radio and telegraphs

... I do not have that.

Thank you, that is an egregious oversight on my part.

[StanLemon]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

For the most part it's there for the same reason the Dawnshard section is, despite Scadrial not having one. It's to compare it to the world's that have things like category 5 hurricanes that circle the world every couple of days. And while things like technology and Investiture make geography less relevant than say during the middle ages, it is still(to my mind) a factor worth considering, if that makes sense.

I agree, geography is always going to be relevant to war. Even with our modern day technology it still can make or break a war. The only Invested forces that won't be concerned about geography are the ones that fly. 

[+Oltux72]

9 hours ago, StanLemon said:

I agree, geography is always going to be relevant to war. Even with our modern day technology it still can make or break a war. The only Invested forces that won't be concerned about geography are the ones that fly. 

Even then, because it affects opponents and resupply. Patji, for example, is an island. Meaning that once you have taken the land around the perpendicularity, your opponents would need to do an amphibious opeation to dislodge you.

[ScadrianTank]

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

Is that the difference? Honestly I've just thought they were two words for the same thing.

Missiles are smart; they seek and steer toward a target either on their own (like cruise missiles, for example) or are guided remotely.
Rockets are dumb; they're aimed before launch and will not correct for the target's movements.
If you're familiar with modern military shooters and/or weaponry it's the difference between an RPG(dumb rocket) and something like a Javelin(smart target-seeking missile).

Edited December 28, 2022 by ScadrianTank

[IlstrawberrySeed]

I believe that Missile has multiple definitions, one of which is correct for the way he is using it, another being the smart targeting. I’ve always heard missile more as “air born projectile,” with the exceptions marked as you have.

Frustrated, I also think that you could mark the investiture levels (Roshar being the current highest I think) and current Trend on invested individuals (down in PpM, perhaps up in P), but the later is kind of the speculation you want to stay away from. Thanks for putting this together.

[Frustration]

21 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Frustrated, I also think that you could mark the investiture levels

While I suppose I could ambient Investiture isn't really useful for either side.

Unless you mean ranking the combat powers of each magic system?

27 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Thanks for putting this together.

You're welcome, I'm glad you enjoy it.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

I mean availability of investiture. An allomancer on roshar probably wouldn’t need metals, similarly to how awakened don’t need breaths, and returned consume SL.

[Frustration]

On 12/29/2022 at 10:46 AM, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I mean availability of investiture. An allomancer on roshar probably wouldn’t need metals, similarly to how awakened don’t need breaths, and returned consume SL.

In order for a metalborn to use stormlight the stormlight would have to be stripped of Identity, or possibly the metalborn forming a Connection to Honor, or blanking their own identity. It's not exactly an easy process as even the Ghostbloods find it difficult to do.

Spoiler

Questioner

If I'm a Mistborn and I change planet-- if I go over to Roshar, do I have to bring metal from Scadrial with me?

Brandon Sanderson

No, you do not.

Questioner

Could I use Stormlight, and just have the same power?

Brandon Sanderson

Not-- not-- It would take some work.

Questioner

Yeah, okay. Okay, but I could use steel from Roshar, and you can-- Okay, thank you sir.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/312/#e8967

And awakeners do need breath, though yes Returned can consume stormlight

Spoiler

ZenBossanova (paraphrased)

Can Vasher use Stormlight to Awaken things?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, all it does is keep him alive. But he has tried and has not figured out how to Awaken things.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/64/#e10380

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Frustration

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Didn’t see that quote, there is a similar one saying there are ways to fuel awakening with SL.