Religious consequences[DISCUSS]

[Elder]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Are you really claiming that adonalsium didn't create the universe?  We  have no evidence to suggest that and wabs are in the books.

  To Brandon Sanderson has said multiple times that I adonalsium didn't have any rivals.    Which seems to preclude Some other God that made the universe. 

 In addition even if there was I don't  Think that's a guarantee that his power wasn't infinite. 

 

 How is it ambiguous who he was. I've never found any ambiguity about him. 

When and where did Brandon say that Adonalsium had no rivals?  The Aethers and those who worship them might have something to say about that.  
 

Going on with definitions of omnipotence, there’s more evidence that certain shards didn’t have access to certain powers.

For instance, Ruin could talk put thoughts in people’s heads (mostly the mentally ill or those who were hemalurgically spiked) but could not hear unless they spoke aloud.  Preservation had access to their thoughts, but couldn’t speak back.  In Shadows of Self, Harmony confirms that this was a function of the shards, not a limitation imposed by the vessel.  Seeing as how he can do both, it stands to reason that this was a matter of abilities simply not being in the toolkit of the separate shards, since the shards do not interfere with him using both abilities simultaneously.

So in terms of omnipotence:

Shards do have infinite power inasmuch as their power never ceases to exist and is renewable.

Shards do have limitations on their power based on their intent.  This can be considered a moral restraint attached to compatibility/worthiness to use power.

Shards do not have access to all powers, and it isn’t just intent limiting them.  In some cases it just isn’t in their wheelhouse.

Individual shards do not have Supremacy, despite some of their best efforts.
 

[bmcclure7]

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

We have no evidence that he did either.

No, he's only said that there isn't a Anti-Adonalsium, not that there aren't other forces out there.

Expecting literal every character who has every knowledge tell us that. 

[Frustration]

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

Expecting literal every character who has every knowledge tell us that. 

Oh, do we now?

The Aethers are some of the oldest beings in the Cosmere, and they say otherwise. They might even predate Hoid, so their word shouldn't be thrown aside.

Nikli said the Dawnshards were used, but Adonalsium clearly didn't have them, otherwise he couldn't have been shattered.

I don't think anyone else has even given a definitive statement

[bmcclure7]

20 hours ago, Elder said:

When and where did Brandon say that Adonalsium had no rivals?  The Aethers and those who worship them might have something to say about that.  
 

Going on with definitions of omnipotence, there’s more evidence that certain shards didn’t have access to certain powers.

For instance, Ruin could talk put thoughts in people’s heads (mostly the mentally ill or those who were hemalurgically spiked) but could not hear unless they spoke aloud.  Preservation had access to their thoughts, but couldn’t speak back.  In Shadows of Self, Harmony confirms that this was a function of the shards, not a limitation imposed by the vessel.  Seeing as how he can do both, it stands to reason that this was a matter of abilities simply not being in the toolkit of the separate shards, since the shards do not interfere with him using both abilities simultaneously.

So in terms of omnipotence:

Shards do have infinite power inasmuch as their power never ceases to exist and is renewable.

Shards do have limitations on their power based on their intent.  This can be considered a moral restraint attached to compatibility/worthiness to use power.

Shards do not have access to all powers, and it isn’t just intent limiting them.  In some cases it just isn’t in their wheelhouse.

Individual shards do not have Supremacy, despite some of their best efforts.
 

Aethers claim independence not rivalry.

 I agree shards are limited by their intent.  And as of yet no. One shard can claim Supermacy .  But I fail what to see what this has to do with anything?   How does this pertain to your point?

[bmcclure7]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Oh, do we now?

The Aethers are some of the oldest beings in the Cosmere, and they say otherwise. They might even predate Hoid, so their word shouldn't be thrown aside.

Nikli said the Dawnshards were used, but Adonalsium clearly didn't have them, otherwise he couldn't have been shattered.

I don't think anyone else has even given a definitive statement

 The aethers Say that he didn't create them they say nothing about not creating the universe. 

 

I don't think you understand what the dawn shards are. There his comands used to create life.   There are the greatest evidence we have that he created the universe in fact the mere existence pretty much proves That he did. I don't see how bringing them up proves anything.

[Frustration]

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

 The aethers Say that he didn't create them they say nothing about not creating the universe.

They say they Predate Adonalsium, kind of hard to exist when there isn't a universe to exist in.

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

I don't think you understand what the dawn shards are. There his comands used to create life.   There are the greatest evidence we have that he created the universe in fact the mere existence pretty much proves That he did. I don't see how bringing them up proves anything.

So far there is zero evidence that Adonalsium ever created or even used the Dawnshard.

And if he did why did he give people who hated him the ability to kill him?

[bmcclure7]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They say they Predate Adonalsium, kind of hard to exist when there isn't a universe to exist in.

So far there is zero evidence that Adonalsium ever created or even used the Dawnshard.

And if he did why did he give people who hated him the ability to kill him?

1.  No it's not, Adonalsium predate the universe,  And if the Aethers are truly independent of him Then they would have predated it as well. There is no reason to think that divine beings like Adonalsium or the aethers would need the universe to exist. Some who exist beyond the natural universe does not need the natural universe to exist.  

2.  Please reread Dawnshard,  They are specifically described as the commands of the creator to his creation. They contain Bits of  Adonalsium  Cognitive essence. Yes he created them , yes he used them This is not up for dispute reread dawnshard. 

3.  I could not possibly speculate On the motivations of a being that is beyond our understanding and who's  Motivations and goals we know next to nothing about. 

4.   I would also like to add that he had to give them the dawnshards or else he couldn't create life.  As to create life is the function of the dawnshards. 

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.  No it's not, Adonalsium predate the universe,  And if the Aethers are truly independent of him Then they would have predated it as well. There is no reason to think that divine beings like Adonalsium or the aethers would need the universe to exist. Some who exist beyond the natural universe does not need the natural universe to exist.  

But they are bound to the natural universe

5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.  Please reread Dawnshard,  They are specifically described as the commands of the creator to his creation. They contain Bits of  Adonalsium  Cognitive essence. Yes he created them , yes he used them This is not up for dispute reread dawnshard. 

It very much is up to debate. Nikli is not omniscient, and thus can be wrong.

The only thing not up for debate is that Nikli THINKS that Adonalsium made the Dawnshards.

5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

4.   I would also like to add that he had to give them the dawnshards or else he couldn't create life.  As to create life is the function of the dawnshards. 

What?

Edited February 9, 2023 by Frustration

[bmcclure7]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But they are bound to the natural universe

It very much is up to debate. Nikli is not omniscient, and thus can be wrong.

The only thing not up for debate is that Nikli THINKS that Adonalsium made the Dawnshards.

What?

1. Wrong neither of of them are.

2.  They have his Cognitive essence in it What more proof do you possibly need.

3.  At this point you're just in denial, making  Outlandish conspiracy theories,supposing that every character is either lying to the reader or wrong. 

4. It's quite simple The dawn shards are commands by the creator to the universe to create life.  By definition if I give someone a command I no longer have the command they do. 

[Elder]

26 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Aethers claim independence not rivalry.

 I agree shards are limited by their intent.  And as of yet no. One shard can claim Supermacy .  But I fail what to see what this has to do with anything?   How does this pertain to your point?

All about defining omnipotence.  There are different ways of measuring power.  In terms of having an everlasting supply of power, they have it.  By other measures they do not.

Also I was pointing out that it may be more than just intent that limits shards by highlighting the complimentary limitations that Preservation and Odium dealt with in realm of communication.  Powers that Harmony has unrestricted access to, despite also having new limitations from where his Shards’ intent conflicts.

Just to get your take on it:

Was Adonalsium more powerful than the individual Shards?  If anything could be more powerful than a Shard, then a Shard is not omnipotent.  

I suppose that’s what it comes down to.  These Shards were not originally separate as far as we know, and their separation may be what has imposed limiting Intent and withheld certain powers from each of them.

 

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. Wrong neither of of them are.

Anything that exists on one realm exists on all three

Spoiler

MoriWillow

If there only existed a single atom in the cosmere, would that atom have a Cognitive aspect?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it probably would.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11358

Cuaiir

Request that Brandon write a clue to the nature of the cosmere, specifically Realmatic theory.

Brandon Sanderson

Entities exist on all three realms that are only vaguely shadowed on the other realms.

You have seen entities who exist primarily on the Cognitive Realm + are shadowed on the Physical.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/239/#e10051

 

 

 

 

Therefore they have to exist in the natural universe, there isn't an option.

13 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.  They have his Cognitive essence in it What more proof do you possibly need.

No they don't, where did you get that idea?

14 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3.  At this point you're just in denial, making  Outlandish conspiracy theories,supposing that every character is either lying to the reader or wrong. 

Is it really that outlandish to assume characters are wrong? RoW showed that everyone was wrong about the recreance.

And on denial you're the one ignoring that Brandon has repeatedly said shards aren't omnipotent

Spoiler

Questioner

In Stormlight, Dalinar mentioned that <if he can die, he's no longer a god>, so to speak. And throughout the cosmere, gods died *inaudible*. Is there an omniscient, omnipotent, actual God in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Is there an omniscient, omnipotent God in the cosmere? Some people believe that there is. You guys laugh about this, but I don't mean it to be a laughing thing. There are certain questions I will not answer in the cosmere, specifically because it would too much undermine some of the characters' beliefs. And I want to treat characters respectfully. So whether there is life after you pass into the Beyond, and whether there is a God of gods, an omnipotent, as we would define "monotheistic God," are questions that I don't answer, and I let the characters deal with. Because if I answer that, then the character discussions about this are meaningless. Not really, but they kind of are. So there are a couple things I won't answer about the cosmere, because the characters don't have these answers.

Questioner

<Do you know the answer>?

Brandon Sanderson

I know the answer, yes.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1733

Robert W

Does Jasnah still consider herself to be atheist and what would she have to see in order to change her view?

Brandon Sanderson

Jasnah would stop being atheist if she got definitive proof of an omniscient and caring and omnipotent God. She does not, and I kind of agree with her, consider the Shards to be Gods (capital G). In her realm these are beings that, you know, everything is Invested, they're Invested more. Atheist means she does not believe that there is, in these terms, an omnipotent God. It doesn't necessarily have to mean loving, I might have said that. She means that there is no omnipotent, capital G God. She doesn't think one exists. She would need to have irrefutable proof that they do or that they did and then she would believe. It doesn't mean she would worship, but it does mean she would believe.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467/#e14752

Questioner

With Shards, are there any... limits? What can't they do? Besides being opposed by another Shard and their own intent?

Brandon Sanderson

It varies a lot. It varies based on experience and situation. They are not omnipotent, though the power is infinite. So that is the weird part that you get into. So, they are limited partially by their own limitations, and also the limitations imposed upon them by the situations they're in.

Questioner

Is there anything universal about all of them?

Brandon Sanderson

They all have bits of them in all of the cosmere, so that's universal. They all are bounded more by themselves than by the power itself.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/373/#e12035

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. It's quite simple The dawn shards are commands by the creator to the universe to create life.  By definition if I give someone a command I no longer have the command they do. 

That would make Dawnshards one time use, which is not the case.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, TwinSoul claims the Aethers are independent of Adonalsium. If that's true, Adonalsium can't have created everything. So Brandon not questioning the idea that Adonalsium created an infinite universe makes sense to me for spoiler reasons.

[bmcclure7]

13 minutes ago, Elder said:

All about defining omnipotence.  There are different ways of measuring power.  In terms of having an everlasting supply of power, they have it.  By other measures they do not.

Also I was pointing out that it may be more than just intent that limits shards by highlighting the complimentary limitations that Preservation and Odium dealt with in realm of communication.  Powers that Harmony has unrestricted access to, despite also having new limitations from where his Shards’ intent conflicts.

Just to get your take on it:

Was Adonalsium more powerful than the individual Shards?  If anything could be more powerful than a Shard, then a Shard is not omnipotent.  

I suppose that’s what it comes down to.  These Shards were not originally separate as far as we know, and their separation may be what has imposed limiting Intent and withheld certain powers from each of them.

 

1. Adonalsium was not more powerful less limited yes but not more powerful read RoW

 

2. I see the confusion, I'm using the  abrahamic definition of omnipotence, you appear to using a more general theist definition.

Sadly I don't see how this discussion can continue as long as we use different definitions we might as well be take to a wall, both right yet both wrong. 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. Adonalsium was not more powerful less limited yes but not more powerful read RoW

Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Spoiler

Questioner

Is Harmony stronger than Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Harmony has two shards. So by raw power he is stronger than Odium. Odium is much more warrior-minded and killing-minded, so I don't know if Harmony could actually beat him. But Odium is scared of Harmony.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/249/#e7318

Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87/#e5854

Questioner

You've mentioned before that Odium is scared of Harmony. Is it only because of the raw power of the two Shards? Or is he scared of what Harmony represents? (Meaning the possibility of merging two Shards.) Was he aware that this was possible?

Brandon Sanderson

He, on one level, was aware. But it was more of awareness of this as a possibility. It actually happening is part of what has him scared. It's the idea of the two merging Shards both being more powerful and finding a harmony. (Which Sazed is actually having way more trouble doing than Odium realizes.) Those two things really have Odium scared. Because, partially, this means he has to find a way to destroy or split Harmony without taking up a second Shard himself, because Odium knows if he takes up a second Shard, terrible things will happen. And so he doesn't want to do that. (Terrible things as he views them.) And so he's gotta find a way to split this apart, or somehow otherwise defeat.

Now, the more he learns about Sazed's actual state, the less afraid he'll probably be. But that's an advantage that Sazed has right now.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/431/#e14009

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Therefore Adonalsium is more powerful than Shards

[bmcclure7]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Anything that exists on one realm exists on all three

  Reveal hidden contents

MoriWillow

If there only existed a single atom in the cosmere, would that atom have a Cognitive aspect?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it probably would.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11358

Cuaiir

Request that Brandon write a clue to the nature of the cosmere, specifically Realmatic theory.

Brandon Sanderson

Entities exist on all three realms that are only vaguely shadowed on the other realms.

You have seen entities who exist primarily on the Cognitive Realm + are shadowed on the Physical.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/239/#e10051

 

 

 

 

Therefore they have to exist in the natural universe, there isn't an option.

No they don't, where did you get that idea?

Is it really that outlandish to assume characters are wrong? RoW showed that everyone was wrong about the recreance.

And on denial you're the one ignoring that Brandon has repeatedly said shards aren't omnipotent

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

In Stormlight, Dalinar mentioned that <if he can die, he's no longer a god>, so to speak. And throughout the cosmere, gods died *inaudible*. Is there an omniscient, omnipotent, actual God in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Is there an omniscient, omnipotent God in the cosmere? Some people believe that there is. You guys laugh about this, but I don't mean it to be a laughing thing. There are certain questions I will not answer in the cosmere, specifically because it would too much undermine some of the characters' beliefs. And I want to treat characters respectfully. So whether there is life after you pass into the Beyond, and whether there is a God of gods, an omnipotent, as we would define "monotheistic God," are questions that I don't answer, and I let the characters deal with. Because if I answer that, then the character discussions about this are meaningless. Not really, but they kind of are. So there are a couple things I won't answer about the cosmere, because the characters don't have these answers.

Questioner

<Do you know the answer>?

Brandon Sanderson

I know the answer, yes.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1733

Robert W

Does Jasnah still consider herself to be atheist and what would she have to see in order to change her view?

Brandon Sanderson

Jasnah would stop being atheist if she got definitive proof of an omniscient and caring and omnipotent God. She does not, and I kind of agree with her, consider the Shards to be Gods (capital G). In her realm these are beings that, you know, everything is Invested, they're Invested more. Atheist means she does not believe that there is, in these terms, an omnipotent God. It doesn't necessarily have to mean loving, I might have said that. She means that there is no omnipotent, capital G God. She doesn't think one exists. She would need to have irrefutable proof that they do or that they did and then she would believe. It doesn't mean she would worship, but it does mean she would believe.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467/#e14752

Questioner

With Shards, are there any... limits? What can't they do? Besides being opposed by another Shard and their own intent?

Brandon Sanderson

It varies a lot. It varies based on experience and situation. They are not omnipotent, though the power is infinite. So that is the weird part that you get into. So, they are limited partially by their own limitations, and also the limitations imposed upon them by the situations they're in.

Questioner

Is there anything universal about all of them?

Brandon Sanderson

They all have bits of them in all of the cosmere, so that's universal. They all are bounded more by themselves than by the power itself.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/373/#e12035

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That would make Dawnshards one time use, which is not the case.

1.That wob is not saying anything other then that spren and cognitive enties.

2. Except we were told over and over again that everyone was wrong about the recreance, no such for shadowing exist for Adonalsium.

3. You're ignoring the wobs where he has said that they do including the one I quoted earlier. Not mention RoW.

4.Bradon contradict himself in that very wob. So it's confusing at best hardly proof of anything. 

 

5.No it wouldn't make the a one time use, just look at awakening.  

[bmcclure7]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Is Harmony stronger than Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Harmony has two shards. So by raw power he is stronger than Odium. Odium is much more warrior-minded and killing-minded, so I don't know if Harmony could actually beat him. But Odium is scared of Harmony.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/249/#e7318

Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87/#e5854

Questioner

You've mentioned before that Odium is scared of Harmony. Is it only because of the raw power of the two Shards? Or is he scared of what Harmony represents? (Meaning the possibility of merging two Shards.) Was he aware that this was possible?

Brandon Sanderson

He, on one level, was aware. But it was more of awareness of this as a possibility. It actually happening is part of what has him scared. It's the idea of the two merging Shards both being more powerful and finding a harmony. (Which Sazed is actually having way more trouble doing than Odium realizes.) Those two things really have Odium scared. Because, partially, this means he has to find a way to destroy or split Harmony without taking up a second Shard himself, because Odium knows if he takes up a second Shard, terrible things will happen. And so he doesn't want to do that. (Terrible things as he views them.) And so he's gotta find a way to split this apart, or somehow otherwise defeat.

Now, the more he learns about Sazed's actual state, the less afraid he'll probably be. But that's an advantage that Sazed has right now.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/431/#e14009

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Therefore Adonalsium is more powerful than Shards

Not he is not Read RoW ( I have brought this point up multiple times stop ignoring it) 

Infinite or not nessarly equal so it should be theoretically possible that Adonalsium was more powerful despite all the shards having unlimited power.

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.That wob is not saying anything other then that spren and cognitive enties.  

It never mentioned spren.

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. Except we were told over and over again that everyone was wrong about the recreance, no such for shadowing exist for Adonalsium.

When?

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. You're ignoring the wobs where he has said that they do including the one I quoted earlier. Not mention RoW.

That is every WoB with the word Omnipotent in them(excepting one which is in reference to general character power level) so there is no WoB that says that.

And RoW never says that they are omnipotent. Just "essentially infinite" meaning they don't run out. And that last WoB was given after RoW was written.

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

4.Bradon contradict himself in that very wob.

Where?

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

5.No it wouldn't make the a one time use, just look at awakening.  

You don't need to collect the Dawnshards after each use.

@bmcclure7 stop double posting

Quote

Not he is not Read RoW ( I have brought this point up multiple times stop ignoring it) 

I have address it multiple times. Harmony only said "essentially infinite" not that they were.

Quote

Infinite or not nessarly equal so it should be theoretically possible that Adonalsium was more powerful despite all the shards having unlimited power.

It isn't unlimited, it just replenishes.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Frustration

[bmcclure7]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It never mentioned spren.

When?

That is every WoB with the word Omnipotent in them(excepting one which is in reference to general character power level) so there is no WoB that says that.

And RoW never says that they are omnipotent. Just "essentially infinite" meaning they don't run out. And that last WoB was given after RoW was written.

Where?

You don't need to collect the Dawnshards after each use.

1. Spen are cognitive entities 

2. Multiple times by the Storm father, one by odium. Read stormlight. 

3. Being not limited by amount of power is the definition of omnipotence. 

4."They are not omnipotent, though the power is infinite. "

 

 he said the shards power in infinite, that's the definition of omnipotent.

5.Yes, and lifeless don't constantly need to be reawakened, I don't see your point. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. Spen are cognitive entities 

Yeah, but it doen't specify cognitive entities does it?

It says there are entities on all three realms that are only shadowed in the other two.

It never says that only cognitive entities are bound by this rule

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. Multiple times by the Storm father, one by odium. Read stormlight. 

I have, more recently than you it seems as they never say that they are wrong about the recreance, indeed the Stormfather himself was wrong about it.

8 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. Being not limited by amount of power is the definition of omnipotence.

So if I have a generator that provided infinate free electricity I become omnipotent?

No, because there are thinga that that power cannot do. I cannot make matter with it, I cannot bring people back from the dead, I cannot reverse time, create gravity and millions of other things.

The same thing applies to investiture, while shards may renew as time goes on, there are things they just can not do.

9 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

5.Yes, and lifeless don't constantly need to be reawakened, I don't see your point. 

Lifeless take the breath, and use that, the person who holds the Dawnshard can use it as much as they like without having to reclaim it.

[Elder]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. Adonalsium was not more powerful less limited yes but not more powerful read RoW

 

2. I see the confusion, I'm using the  abrahamic definition of omnipotence, you appear to using a more general theist definition.

Sadly I don't see how this discussion can continue as long as we use different definitions we might as well be take to a wall, both right yet both wrong. 

It only doesn’t work if you reject all definition outside your own.  Nor are you really defining  Omnipotence the same way Abraham did. Abraham’s God has Supremacy, and is quite assertive of that supremacy.  Abraham’s God may very well be limited by his own Law and Morality, but there’s no ability outside his reach, no god greater, lesser or equal who has power He has not.  Sorry to burst your bubble there.  You can’t really compare Shards to the God of Abraham.  They’re essentially a polytheistic pantheon.  
 

 

as to your reference to Rhythm of War, let’s go over what he actually says:

Quote

This is a threat beyond the capacity of one Shard to face. Unfortunately, as proven by my own situation, the combination of Shards is not always a path to greater power. We must assume that Odium has realized this, and is seeking a singular, terrible goal: the destruction - and somehow Splintering or otherwise making impotent - of all the Shards other than him. To combine powers would change and distort who Odium is. So instead of absorbing others, he destroys them. Since we are all essentially infinite, he needs no more power. Destroying and Splintering the other Shards would leave Odium as the sole god, unchanged and uncorrupted by other influences.

I took the liberty of emphasizing parts.

An omnipotent God could face any threat.  Though, Odium does seem to be able to fight at a 2 v 1 disadvantage  reliably.

Sazed’s situation isn’t a lack of power, but he has to contend with opposing intents.  He does however have abilities that Preservation and Ruin lacked, such as the ability to have a two way mental conversation.  Note the extra emphasis on the word always.  Sometimes combining shards does lead to greater power.  Just not always.

Odium, due to its hateful nature, cannot abide the idea of changing what it is.  Its intent would rather be pure.  A form of bigotry to other powers if you will.

And your “essentially equal” section.  Putting aside debate over how the word “essentially” is being used, the sentence still suggests that merging shards would produce more power.  It’s just that Odium doesn’t feel he needs it.  Based on Frost’s letter, I’d argue that Rayse would have benefited greatly from having some of the other factors that gave God’s divine hatred context.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Elder

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

No, because there are thinga that that power cannot do. I cannot make matter with it

I like to join here, you can - "The Breit–Wheeler process or Breit–Wheeler pair production is a proposed physical process in which a positron–electron pair is created from the collision of two photons."  

You are both going nowhere with this discussion.

Edited February 9, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration]

Just now, alder24 said:

I like to join here, you can - "The Breit–Wheeler process or Breit–Wheeler pair production is a proposed physical process in which a positron–electron pair is created from the collision of two photons." 

I would only have access to electrons, and I still don't see how that process get's you hydorgen atoms, though it's possible I've missed somehing

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You are going nowhere with this discussion.

I've realized that

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I would only have access to electrons, and I still don't see how that process get's you hydorgen atoms, though it's possible I've missed somehing

You have unlimited electricity, you can make lasers, which are photon emitters. Electrons and positrons are matter and antimatter. They are fundamental particles, they are matter. I know what you want to say, that electricity won't make lasers or something. A just simply provided a cool fact to ease the tension.

Edited February 9, 2023 by alder24

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Yeah, but it doen't specify cognitive entities does it?

It says there are entities on all three realms that are only shadowed in the other two.

It never says that only cognitive entities are bound by this rule

I have, more recently than you it seems as they never say that they are wrong about the recreance, indeed the Stormfather himself was wrong about it.

So if I have a generator that provided infinate free electricity I become omnipotent?

No, because there are thinga that that power cannot do. I cannot make matter with it, I cannot bring people back from the dead, I cannot reverse time, create gravity and millions of other things.

The same thing applies to investiture, while shards may renew as time goes on, there are things they just can not do.

Lifeless take the breath, and use that, the person who holds the Dawnshard can use it as much as they like without having to reclaim it.

1. And those entities are referred to as spren, moving on.

2. Reread it,  Multiple times before the twist At the end of oathbringer  The storm father says that they do not know the reason for the recreants and that the reason they think is wrong but refuses to tell them The true reason. Odium says as much  at least once.

3a.  You can literally do all those things with investigature. 

3b.  And even if you couldn't so what, Just because there are things you can't do with that power doesn't mean you don't have unlimited power. The long as the reason you can't do them is not I don't have enough power. 

3c.  Brandon sepacifically uses the Abrahamic God in that wob, As his example for omniscience

but By  your words the Abrahamic God is not Omniscient, Since there are plenty of things he can't do.  May I suggest broadening your criteria for omniscience.

4.  Breath is the power not the command. You give the lifeless to command awaken. You can give it more commands after that without reawakening them  Because All those other commands are subsets Of your original command "awaken"

 

 Similarly Adonalsium  Doesn't have to reissue the command "change"  Because every use of the dawn shard change is within the criteria of his original command. 

 

 

 

Think Of it like someone commanding you to go to the store.  He doesn't have to tell you  Walk 5 paces, open the door, walk to the car, get out car keys,  and so on. 

 This is because all those commands are included in the command to go to the store. 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by bmcclure7

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Elder said:

It only doesn’t work if you reject all definition outside your own.  Nor are you really defining  Omnipotence the same way Abraham did. Abraham’s God has Supremacy, and is quite assertive of that supremacy.  Abraham’s God may very well be limited by his own Law and Morality, but there’s no ability outside his reach, no god greater, lesser or equal who has power He has not.  Sorry to burst your bubble there.  You can’t really compare Shards to the God of Abraham.  They’re essentially a polytheistic pantheon.  
 

 

as to your reference to Rhythm of War, let’s go over what he actually says:

I took the liberty of emphasizing parts.

Sazed’s situation isn’t a lack of power, but he has to contend with opposing intents.  He does however have abilities that Preservation and Ruin lacked, such as the ability to have a two way mental conversation.  Note the extra emphasis on the word always.  Sometimes combining shards does lead to greater power.  Just not always.

Odium, due to its hateful nature, cannot abide the idea of changing what it is.  Its intent would rather be pure.  A form of bigotry to other powers if you will.

And your “essentially equal” section.  Putting aside debate over how the word “essentially” is being used, the sentence still suggests that merging shards would produce more power.  It’s just that Odium doesn’t feel he needs it.  Based on Frost’s letter, I’d argue that Rayse would have benefited greatly from having some of the other factors that gave God’s divine hatred context.

1.  You're the only one rejecting my definition of Omniscience, Not the other way around. 

2. Supremacy  Is a separate issue, The Abrahamic of God is omniscience and  He is sovereign. But that does not make them the same things.  I agree that none of the cosmere shards are sovereign over each other.

3.  I think you need to read the quote.  It clearly says the shard power is infinite so infinity times 2 really doesn't get you anywhere. That's why Doubling shards doesn't make you more powerful. 

4. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that Doubling shards doesn't get you something. As we see of harmony Doubling intents can give you the powers  Associated with those intents. 

 As You mention above, Ruin could speak to minds, Preservation could hear them.  Odium can do  Neither but seems to be able to take away a emotion.  It does seem that the shards are limited by their intent when interacting with people.

But this is not the same thing as being more powerful.  Unless you're changing the  Quality and not the quantity of your infinity, Infinity times 2 is still infinity. 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by bmcclure7