Mid-Range Game 61: Shadows and Dust

[Madagascar]

$#%ing toldja that Jawa up to something sneaky, I did. And, I mean…. not wrong was I.

[DrakeMarshall]

8 hours ago, Ookla the Tall said:

e!me kills Fifth or Madagascar, because e!me would have viewed the connections in their posts as Jedi-Jedi indicative, knowing full well that they're not e/e.

See, this kind of makes it worse

One, you did target Madagascar. Not with the NK, but with the exe last cycle, and I don't see how that makes much of a difference. From the elims perspective, the only difference between the exe and the NK is that you use the exe on people you think you can make a plausible case against.

Two, it sounds like you're saying you're village on the basis that you assumed it was e/e and not Jedi/Jedi. But v!Matrim would have no way of knowing it wasn't Jedi/Jedi. You'd have to weigh whether it was e/e or Jedi/Jedi in your head before doing anything. If you decided it was more likely to be Jedi/Jedi than something else, you might choose to keep it under wraps. For me, at least, wondering about that sort of thing, whether I should draw attention to a possible connection or not, has been kind of a big part of this game? Now, everyone has a different thought process, I get that, but the fact that you're implying that this didn't really come up for you, does not help the case for v!Matrim in my eyes.

8 hours ago, Ookla the Tall said:

But to answer your question, yesterday was Sunday. It was a day for church and for family, and I could pop in on mobile a few times to see results and ask questions but my focus was nowhere near the game :P. And I mean, saying I've been 'pretty active' this turn is kind of untrue.

Okay, fair, you get the benefit of the doubt on this one.

8 hours ago, Ookla the Tall said:

I guess I thought it was implied, here, I'll spell it out-- my initial concern with Bookwyrm was that suspicious things have proven not to be all that e!indicative for Bookwyrm, so I was hesitant to vote him, and the correct implication there is that, like, I saw those suspicious things again. And it's hard for my brain to not see opportunistic unexplained votes as suspicious. I don't think I would have voted there if I had seen the reasoning on the Alv train, but I had missed that, and so I opted for the 'better' train like I did when I voted xino over Fifth.

With all due respect, this is still a pretty vague reasoning, for you to be marketing it as "spelling it out"

You've pretty much just said Bookwyrm was doing suspicious things, and that there were opportunistic votes without saying which ones.

This is also ex post facto reasoning. Maybe this was legitimately your thought process when you voted. Maybe not. It is unfortunately not something I can take your word for.

8 hours ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Don't have faith in my attentiveness to detail xD Ask... I was going to say Kas but he's the GM and probably cannot impartially answer this whatever the case, so ask anyone else I suppose. I have a history of forgetting rules, in every alignment :P. Short term memory is not very good. The fact that I had just reread the rules is irrelevant, as 'reread' in that case was synonymous with 'skimmed' and all I was really looking at was abilities of the Jedi/Desann. Why does asking about the number of Cultists mean I was reading the Cultist-specific rules? I knew they were probably in the game regardless. I get what you're saying but it's a frustrating point to read because you're just... wrong here.

I mean, were you not reading the Cultist-specific rules?

Tbh, I'm not sure I'd even know the difference between Cultists and Desann Reborn without rereading that part if your memory is anywhere near as poor as mine (and I don't think my memory is honestly very bad in the grand scheme of things tbh), you would have needed to reread the cultist section to know even that If you had claimed you'd just skimmed over the one sentence part where it says Cultists can gain a kill, I might have bought that, but you also seem to be arguing on top of that you weren't really reading the Cultist section, which feels iffy. Again, you were making guesses about the number of Cultists relative to Desann Reborn, and while that doesn't prove you were reading about those rules, it sure does make it more likely.

I will also say, your predicted number of Cultists felt very lowball for the 25% rule. Why? It's a small thing, but it does not make a lot of sense if you didn't know about the Cultist promotion mechanic, but makes quite a bit of sense if you did. Especially if you didn't yet understand that the promotion mechanic means that the Cultist only gains a kill without becoming a full Desann Reborn, which as far as I can remember that part only got specifically clarified circa C3.

8 hours ago, Ookla the Tall said:

And... the elim suggesting kills has to be Desann? What about Hael? He seems like he'd be into that. I feel like JNV and probably Wiz could manage that, as well as Mads, Ash, and yourself.

Hael is dead, I am village, JNV was inactive last cycle.

Of the remainder, I currently trust you the least, but if you want to elaborate and make a specific accusation against one or more of them, I will listen.

 

 

EDIT: Because I have more to say, and there haven't been any other posts yet!

2 hours ago, Alvron said:

What, you don't think a Jawa can be a Jedi?

Oh, no, a Jawa Jedi is epic

I just didn't expect an Alvron Jedi

 

Vote Tally
Matrim's_Dice (2): DrakeMarshall, Madagascar
Ashbringer (1): JNV
Ookla the [Redacted] (1): Ookla the Myopic

@Ashbringer @Ookla the Tall @Fifth Scholar @ookla the POKE VOTE @Alvron @Ookla the [Redacted] This is your complimentary cyclic reminder to VOTE! Some of you I trust as Jedi, some of you I think are Desann Reborn, it doesn't really matter, whoever you are and whatever your situation is please vote! If you say you have no time I don't believe you, it only takes like 1 or maybe 2 words of typing I for one would rather live in a village who votes and gets it wrong than a village who doesn't vote

I would also like to again point out that the Jedi will likely be using Force Sense this round so we really can't afford to leave it all up to their actions anymore. One way or another, the hope of the village is in the thread now.

An aside: Fifth, about that, one thing I still don't get. Why'd you both claim?

@JNV You are currently voting for persons who either are a Jedi claimant or are somebody a Jedi claimant claimed was cleared of being Desann Reborn, and while it's your choice, I figured you should be made aware since you haven't weighed in since before the big claim

Edited December 6, 2022 by DrakeMarshall
moar post!!!!!! all of the words!!!!!!

[Mat]

14 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

One, you did target Madagascar. Not with the NK, but with the exe last cycle, and I don't see how that makes much of a difference. From the elims perspective, the only difference between the exe and the NK is that you use the exe on people you think you can make a plausible case against.

No, the difference is that I only have the exe and don't have kill access. v!me makes that case, and e!me makes that case and then also NKs probably Fifth since I'd still want to exe Mad for later.

15 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

But v!Matrim would have no way of knowing it wasn't Jedi/Jedi. You'd have to weigh whether it was e/e or Jedi/Jedi in your head before doing anything.

But like the possibility that it was Jedi/Jedi legitimately did not cross my mind until Fifth claimed xD There was no judgement or weighing of anything there. Hence my huge case. Which I still think is valid, by the way, and am just trusting Fifth's Desann clears :P.

18 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

You've pretty much just said Bookwyrm was doing suspicious things, and that there were opportunistic votes without saying which ones.

This is also ex post facto reasoning. Maybe this was legitimately your thought process when you voted. Maybe not. It is unfortunately not something I can take your word for.

See: Memory and busy schedule >> I could go find the exact things but honestly I don't really want to. Would it make a difference? I don't think so.

[bold] That's how a lot of this ends up, isn't it :P. Feels unfair but there you go

19 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

I mean, were you not reading the Cultist-specific rules?

Tbh, I'm not sure I'd even know the difference between Cultists and Desann Reborn without rereading that part if your memory is anywhere near as poor as mine (and I don't think my memory is honestly very bad in the grand scheme of things tbh), you would have needed to reread the cultist section to know even that If you had claimed you'd just skimmed over the one sentence part where it says Cultists can gain a kill, I might have bought that, but you also seem to be arguing on top of that you weren't really reading the Cultist section, which feels iffy. Again, you were making guesses about the number of Cultists relative to Desann Reborn, and while that doesn't prove you were reading about those rules, it sure does make it more likely.

I wasn't reading the anything-specific rules  As I said-- and like, this is an assumption based on me because I don't know exactly what I did, I don't remember because it's not important-- I double checked the rules enough to know that the Jedi can recruit, redirect, manip and the Desann can roleblock, kill, manip, and that there were cultists that didn't do anything except be there, and everything else wasn't important for right then. So no, I didn't see that part. I don't remember what specifically I read dedicatedly.

This also falls into the category of something you can't take my word on but we're discussing something that doesn't have evidence either way so is there even a point to my explanation? xD I also don't think my guess was lowball. I think it fit the 25% rule well.

24 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Hael is dead, I am village, JNV was inactive last cycle.

Hael wasn't dead for half the game, I am village, JNV... was inactive last cycle. But not the other cycles.

What kills are you referencing, anyway? None of them seem especially strategic.

25 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Of the remainder, I currently trust you the least, but if you want to elaborate and make a specific accusation against one or more of them, I will listen.

I'll take a look tomorrow I guess, it's somehow only 4:30 though it really feels a lot later

So maybe tonight we'll see I guess

[Channelknight Fadran]

Mat or Wizard… Mat or Wizard…

Mmmmmm…

…Wizard

[Mat]

An aside brought to you by paranoia thoughts:

Is it possible— possible, not likely— that Fifth and Alv are both Cultists hoping to draw out the real Jedi?

I’m not saying we should go there like almost ever but I do want brownie points if that’s what happened :P.

[DrakeMarshall]

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

No, the difference is that I only have the exe and don't have kill access. v!me makes that case, and e!me makes that case and then also NKs probably Fifth since I'd still want to exe Mad for later.

Why would e!Matrim kill Fifth, a person who in the absence of Fifth's claim this cycle would have probably gotten exed, and who has been in danger of getting exed for almost the entire game?

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

But like the possibility that it was Jedi/Jedi legitimately did not cross my mind until Fifth claimed xD There was no judgement or weighing of anything there.

Yeah what I'm saying is, that's a bit alignment indicative imo.

Tbf, I think the fact that we nearly executed Fifth, a Jedi, is a pretty good pointer that maybe some of the village was struggling to do that weighing.

But I'm also quite sure an eliminator wouldn't even think to do that weighing. Maybe a villager would, maybe a villager wouldn't, but an eliminator almost definitely wouldn't.

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

See: Memory and busy schedule >> I could go find the exact things but honestly I don't really want to. Would it make a difference? I don't think so.

No shade about not explaining everything I am a firm proponent in the right to be vague about things sometimes

The shade is about framing it like you were explaining everything when arguably you were not.

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

[bold] That's how a lot of this ends up, isn't it :P. Feels unfair but there you go

Unfortunately, yes. Few votes are fair.

Do you think I'm being excessively unfair in this case?

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

I wasn't reading the anything-specific rules  As I said-- and like, this is an assumption based on me because I don't know exactly what I did, I don't remember because it's not important-- I double checked the rules enough to know that the Jedi can recruit, redirect, manip and the Desann can roleblock, kill, manip, and that there were cultists that didn't do anything except be there, and everything else wasn't important for right then. So no, I didn't see that part. I don't remember what specifically I read dedicatedly.

This also falls into the category of something you can't take my word on but we're discussing something that doesn't have evidence either way so is there even a point to my explanation? xD I also don't think my guess was lowball. I think it fit the 25% rule well.

You predicted 1-2 Cultists.

There are 18 players. 18/4 = 4.5, so the 25% rule would predict exactly between 2 and 3 Cultists. 1 cultist is much closer to 15% than 25%.

Again, it's a small thing, but you do know the typically 25% ratio. The simplest explanation is you had a reason to adjust it, which doesn't jive with the level of knowledge that you claimed to have.

If you want to argue that you don't remember this, maybe that's true, let's say I'll believe you on that. But whether you remember right now or not isn't alignment indicative. What you decided to do at the time is, I think.

24 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Hael wasn't dead for half the game, I am village, JNV... was inactive last cycle. But not the other cycles.

What kills are you referencing, anyway? None of them seem especially strategic.

Prior to Hael dying, the main thing is the vote manipulation which handily framed Shining, but that could just be Hael.

After Hael dying though, the only kill so far is Devotary. We don't have that many eliminator actions to draw conclusions from, particularly when some of the eliminator actions were blocked, but you work with what you have. The thing is, the Devotary kill decision is actually very in-line with the actions before Hael dying, I think. Again, it frames Fifth really well. And the eliminators have already framed somebody once. Do you disagree with that assessment of it?

You can say you don't think that the kill was strategic, and that you therefore aren't an eliminator because obviously the eliminators made a decision they thought was strategic, but that doesn't really help a village reading of you I am very guilty of having used the "I am not an eliminator because I think X decision by the eliminators makes no sense" argument while being an eliminator myself This is not the only place where you use that variant of reasoning.

36 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

I'll take a look tomorrow I guess, it's somehow only 4:30 though it really feels a lot later

So maybe tonight we'll see I guess

It has already come up in this game that by far the best defense is providing analysis of other players, so yes, good luck!

This will be the best way forwards regardless of your alignment probably.

Just now, Ookla the Tall said:

An aside brought to you by paranoia thoughts:

Is it possible— possible, not likely— that Fifth and Alv are both Cultists hoping to draw out the real Jedi?

I’m not saying we should go there like almost ever but I do want brownie points if that’s what happened :P.

It's technically possible.

In this case, it could also be a kind of twisty reaction test, I think.

But I don't think it would work.

Far be it from me to suggest a course of action when so far the Jedi have killed a Sith and I haven't, but:

If the two real Jedi both used their vote manipulations to switch a vote onto one of Fifth or Alvron, we know the Sith only has 1 vote manipulation, so this proves that Fifth and Alvron are lying without revealing the Jedi. The only way something like this fails to punish the Sith for their gambit is if they manage to lynch one of the real Jedi before next cycle, but in that case I'd expect Fifth and Alvron to be trying to lead the charge against a particular train much more strongly than they are doing this cycle (neither of them have voted still I think).

Also, cultist!Fifth and cultist!Alvron would really need to have balls of steel for this

[Mat]

4 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Why would e!Matrim kill Fifth, a person who in the absence of Fifth's claim this cycle would have probably gotten exed, and who has been in danger of getting exed for almost the entire game?

Because he knows that Fifth, who has already survived multiple exes without Jedi manip, if a Jedi, would definitely not be exed as easy as it might appear? And because his wincon would be to kill the Jedi as fast as possible, and so suspecting someone to be one with good reason would leave no room for just... not?

5 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

But I'm also quite sure an eliminator wouldn't even think to do that weighing. Maybe a villager would, maybe a villager wouldn't, but an eliminator almost definitely wouldn't.

How is not doing the weighing elim indicative? I assumed that the connections I saw were e/e. An elim would not assume such :P.

Oh wait I think I get it now xD Yeah I see. You're wrong, you have it backwards, but I understand what you mean finally

8 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

The shade is about framing it like you were explaining everything when arguably you were not.

I didn't mean to imply that I was explaining everything-- sorry if it came out that way, I'm more than aware how loose I'm being with all of this >>

11 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Do you think I'm being excessively unfair in this case?

Not necessarily, I'm just complaining :P. I think your points lend themselves to be things I can't actually argue against because they're somewhat incorporeal, but that's not your fault.

9 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

You predicted 1-2 Cultists.

That's ignoring how I said two and guessed two, with 1 being more likely than 3. That's because as a general rule I think 17% is much more likely than 28% (personal opinion there :P) but 2 was my 'guess' so to speak.

13 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

The thing is, the Devotary kill decision is actually very in-line with the actions before Hael dying, I think. Again, it frames Fifth really well. And the eliminators have already framed somebody once. Do you disagree with that assessment of it?

...No, but I don't think Devo was like a go to kill for framing Fifth. She equally weighed e!me and e!you with e!Fifth, and the Fifth votes early today had nothing to do with Devo being the kill target. If it was a frame attempt it was a weak one because it only appears to be one, at least to me, after Fifth claimed. The Shining one was different because it caught people's attention before he flipped.

14 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

You can say you don't think that the kill was strategic, and that you therefore aren't an eliminator because obviously the eliminators made a decision they thought was strategic, but that doesn't really help a village reading of you

I never said that second part; you can case me all you want but don't imply things that make me seem suspicious that I never did :P.

16 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

It's technically possible.

Oh, joy >>

[Fifth Scholar]

2 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

An aside: Fifth, about that, one thing I still don't get. Why'd you both claim?

Because we were both under pressure?  If only one of us did it, you gotta weigh whether it’s a cultist gambit. We wanted to remove that doubt (even though Mat has re-introduced it ). Also, making a more target-rich environment for Team Evil will hopefully confuse them enough that our actions stand a chance of working. Also also, it’s been a fun reaction test for you and Mat and a couple others so thank you for playing along  

You are correct, however, that I should vote. Your case against Mat is…compelling. But I am starting to get the same trust issues I was having with Mat earlier but with you now, whether this is fair or not.  You and Devo were the two people I was trusting apart from Alv, you because you were agreeing with me on everything and Devo because she wasn’t, and on reflection the latter is probably a better reason. But if you’ve pocketed me, your team’s probably already won, and I have liked your reactions to the double claim better than Mat. So I will throw a vote on Mat provisionally. Mat, I am sorry if I am wrong on this one because you’re probably the best analyst left, but that’s also why I’m incredibly paranoid that you’re unflipped. This isn’t really fair and I hope to substantiate this later but also schoolwork is robbing me of a ton of time right now and that includes the time needed to make 3000-word shrek cases >>

Quote

An aside brought to you by paranoia thoughts:

Is it possible— possible, not likely— that Fifth and Alv are both Cultists hoping to draw out the real Jedi?

I’m not saying we should go there like almost ever but I do want brownie points if that’s what happened :P.

As a Jedi banking on only two remaining Cultists (maybe this was a bad thing to bank on? >>), if this is the case, the real Jedi have a ton of options to make us regret our actions. Counterclaiming is one, but it is not necessary. We can be Force Pushed into suicide like Hael, vote manipped into oblivion, fed to the salivating young apprentices they’ve been training up, etc.  Drake’s idea is a good one, though there are probably even easier ways to go about it. The fact that nobody has tried to raise even implicit doubt, except you and Drake, who are very clearly not a team, should be enough to confirm our legitimacy.  

Side note in case I somehow die: if Matrim is evil, then Fadran should definitely be the next Exe if the game does not end.  If Matrim is village I would say that Drake is probably 95% a cultist, so Alv and I will try to use our actions against him, and then Wizard makes sense for a teammate of his, as that’s someone he has avoided placing consistent pressure on. Fadran!DR without Mat is difficult to envision for me.

[Madagascar]

How we should solve this conundrum you know? Incredibly awesome lightsaber duel

the last reborn challenge me to a duel they should

So much cooler to die in a lightsaber duel than by the mob be executed.

 you

 Moff

 some fine mandalorian beer

 and some lightsabers

Mat, of you promised to challenge me to a duel retract my vote I might.

*Moff’s blood alcohol content is now 200%*

[Mat]

24 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Also also, it’s been a fun reaction test for you and Mat and a couple others so thank you for playing along

Are you saying you’re not Jedi? xD

24 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

So I will throw a vote on Mat provisionally. Mat, I am sorry if I am wrong on this one because you’re probably the best analyst left, but that’s also why I’m incredibly paranoid that you’re unflipped. This isn’t really fair and I hope to substantiate this later

No kidding that’s unfair >> Some substantiation would be appreciated but like sheeping Drake is a thing you can do sure

5 minutes ago, Madagascar said:

Mat, of you promised to challenge me to a duel retract my vote I might.

That is not within my ability, but even if it was I wouldn’t. v!me who can do that is a Jedi and would target Fifth or Alv because they’re lying, and e!me who can do that would target Fifth or Alv because they’re not :P.

But sure I promise, unvote me now  

Edited December 6, 2022 by Ookla the Tall

[Alvron]

2 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Oh, no, a Jawa Jedi is epic

I just didn't expect an Alvron Jedi

Give it time.  I'm sure I'll fall to the Dark Side later.

1 hour ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Also, cultist!Fifth and cultist!Alvron would really need to have balls of steel for this

Fifth would be the one having balls of steel.  You have no idea the fast talking he had to do to convince me to go along with his plan.  I much prefer staying in the shadows.

[Madagascar]

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Tall said:

That is not within my ability, but even if it was I wouldn’t. v!me who can do that is a Jedi and would target Fifth or Alv because they’re lying, and e!me who can do that would target Fifth or Alv because they’re not :P.

But sure I promise, unvote me now  

Mat

Die cornered like a dog, or die fighting your arch nemesis Moff in AWESOME LIGHTSABER COMBAT?

Your choice, Sith

Reveal, and I let you live (so we can kill each other) or again I will vote for you

Sure you could reveal yourself to be Sith, get me to retract my vote, and somehow survive and break your promise to duel me, or duel Alv/Fifth for your wincon, but that would be super lame and you'd probably lose anyway

Just think, what's the COOLEST thing that could happen? Methodically the process of elimination use to go down Fifth's list, the easy victory to get, or AWESOME LIGHTSABER COMBAT WITH A DRUNK BABY YODA?

Edited December 6, 2022 by Madagascar

[Fifth Scholar]

Okay. I would just like to point out that currently we have like three votes actually placed, one of which is mine, and the Elims can pull out four to five if they’re feeling in the mood this cycle. This makes the current state of affairs Not Good. Y’all please vote for someone. We need hammer protection, as well as more info on where people stand. I have literally given you four options. It is not too hard  

[Madagascar]

Correct, the jedi is.

Which is why duel me you should, Mat.

Blaze of glory!

*Moff Force lifts himself in the air and whizzes around everyone's heads, firing shots with his blaster off wildly*

[Ashbringer]

I'm... very tired. Being tired + trying to do in depth analysis of Mat is a great way to make me more tired.

Mat, Fadran, Wiz, JNV. And Hael for good measure. Fadran and Mat ended up together a lot. But Fadran always made me feel worse about several things (Fifth train for one. That entire... wait, did you guys... oh I don't even know anymore.)

I kinda want to hear the Jedi's thoughts on Fadran. So let's do that. I should be on for rollover + around the next several hours, although I have the LG and several things I should do during that time. Tag me if you need to yell at me for something 

Mads, I might be able to duel you in spirit next cycle. Not entirely sure though. Time is always running away.

[Fifth Scholar]

26 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

I'm... very tired. Being tired + trying to do in depth analysis of Mat is a great way to make me more tired.

Mat, Fadran, Wiz, JNV. And Hael for good measure. Fadran and Mat ended up together a lot. But Fadran always made me feel worse about several things (Fifth train for one. That entire... wait, did you guys... oh I don't even know anymore.)

I kinda want to hear the Jedi's thoughts on Fadran. So let's do that. I should be on for rollover + around the next several hours, although I have the LG and several things I should do during that time. Tag me if you need to yell at me for something 

Mads, I might be able to duel you in spirit next cycle. Not entirely sure though. Time is always running away.

Not a huge Fadran fan, but his quick vote this cycle makes me suspect him less. Seemed like a very village reaction to the reveal. I doubt he’s evil without Mat. 

[Channelknight Fadran]

Does that mean you’ll lynch me if Mat winds up elim?

Oh boy.

[Fifth Scholar]

9 minutes ago, Ookla the [Redacted] said:

Does that mean you’ll lynch me if Mat winds up elim?

Oh boy.

Ideally lynching Mat or Wiz ends the game and we don’t have to find out  

[Channelknight Fadran]

Indeed, I suppose. What’s the count at?

[Fifth Scholar]

16 minutes ago, Ookla the [Redacted] said:

Indeed, I suppose. What’s the count at?

Mat (a few): Me, Drake, Mad before she retracted

Fadran (1): Ash

Wiz (1): you

yeah we need more voters I think  

[Channelknight Fadran]

....

....

...A part of me says "switch to Mat to prevent manips"

...

...

...but the other part of me really doesn't want Mat to be the elim

[Mat]

I think Wiz is also voting Fadran, meaning regardless of whether or not I like that train I’m probably going to end there on self pres

Actually, before I forget— Fadran

2 minutes ago, Ookla the [Redacted] said:

....

....

...A part of me says "switch to Mat to prevent manips"

...

...

...but the other part of me really doesn't want Mat to be the elim

Looool I had the same thought, believe me, the feeling is mutual :P.

[Channelknight Fadran]

MAT NO IT'S NOT ME I SWEAR

[DrakeMarshall]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Tall said:

Not necessarily, I'm just complaining :P. I think your points lend themselves to be things I can't actually argue against because they're somewhat incorporeal, but that's not your fault.

I think there were some possible directions the discussion of my points could have gone in that weren't incorporeal, but it didn't happen.

Whether that is because you are just a very unlucky villager or an eliminator, time will have to tell, I suppose. Especially if you don't flip this cycle due to the sudden incidence of Fadran votes.

[Alvron]

Wizard. Personally, I would like to see a tie.