Chapter 19

[Firesong]

We were right all along, Trell is Autonomy! I was so thrilled to read that reveal. 

[CognitiveShadow]

Quote

I’ve lost games over and over against Autonomy, but I still have help I can send you. Some do not realize I was behind their mobilization. Yet I did not know the urgency of our task.

Sooooo Harmony was behind the mobilization of the Ghostbloods??

Edit: I’m thinking that is what this means. Probably more in the indirect way of allowing Kelsier to found them and giving some guidance here and there.

Edited November 14, 2022 by CognitiveShadow
Additional thoughts.

[+robardin]

13 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Sooooo Harmony was behind the mobilization of the Ghostbloods??

Yeah, a lot of info said or implied in Ch 19 here with Cosmere-wide threads...

Obviously, Trell = Autonomy = the Trell from pre-Rashek days, as well ("You were not expecting so straightforward an answer?" Hey Saze, stop looking at the fourth wall!)

Autonomy (as stated to Edwarn upon blowing him up) had originally tried to take over Scadrial, then decided to "eliminate life" on Scadrial instead at the end of BoM, but has since gone back to Plan A... After giving Harmony an "ultimatum" to "give this world to her, then move to another".

What the heck kind of a demand was that? A Shard cannot just "abandon" a planet they've Invested in, I didn't think, and no Shard can be more deeply invested in a planet than Harmony is with Scadrial, given that it was created ex nihilo by the combination of Preservation and Ruin (which now compose Harmony) and oh yeah, he was born a mortal there, too.

And, Harmony considers Himself to have "lost games to Autonomy over and over again".... Bwuh?

And "some [avatars of Trell] do not realize I was behind their [Ghostbloods?] mobilization..."? Egad!

And Harmony is now somehow "Invested" by the erstwhile red mist of Autonomy? -- what does Autonomy have to gain by "taking over" Scadrial anyway? Especially if it was a "dangerous threat" to her (and how, exactly?)

Edited November 14, 2022 by robardin

[CognitiveShadow]

So, regarding Autonomy’s Intent- basically Bavadin is the person in the group project who ignores the rest of the team and just does the project alone, happy to find ways to sabotage everyone else by calling out that they didn’t contribute on the project, therefore building herself up and tearing others down at the same time. Win-win. And then she’ll also try to blow up your house if you don’t give it to her and move out cause if she can’t have it no one can.

[Requiem17]

YALL IS WAX A MISTBORN. IS ATIUM IN THAT SIXTEENTH VIAL. I'm freaking out.

So happy about clearing up Trell = avatar of Autonomy. 

I'm too distracted about Wax probably being a Mistborn to even focus on other secrets of this chapter. storm. 

[Invention137]

I have a new theory now that Autonomy is confirmed as Trell. Is it possible that Obrodai is just Bavadin’s name for Scadrial?

Justification: We know that around the time of the True Desolation (which is set slightly before the Wax and Wayne stories), Harmony starts noticing other, hidden Shards “encroaching upon [his] world”. At the same time, Autonomy mentions to Hoid that a new female avatar is developing on Obrodai, which could very well refer to Telsin. Autonomy also warns Hoid not to return. We obviously don’t know all the worlds Hoid has visited, but it seems unlikely he’d be frequenting a world without a perpendicularity (and therefor a Shard) in residence. Therefore, unless Obrodai is a Shardworld that will become relevant in other Cosmere books, it must be Scadrial (out of all the ones we know).

In-universe reason: Autonomy names Scadrial something different to distance it from the past and make it more independent.

Out-of-universe reason: It’d be a big spoiler for Brandon to just namedrop Scadrial in Oathbringer.

 

EDIT: Looking online, it seems Brandon semi-referred to Obrodai as a new Shardworld, but this theory is still plausible since Brandon RAFO’d a question asking if we’ve seen Obrodai before.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Invention137

[Nesh]

I'm just really glad Trell isn't Odium.  I mean Odium's already taken out Devotion, Dominion, Ambition, and Honor.  We were kind of getting to the point where that Shard was behind everything.  A new antagonist is a nice change of pace is all I'm saying.

[Firesong]

13 minutes ago, Invention137 said:

I have a new theory now that Autonomy is confirmed as Trell. Is it possible that Obrodai is just Bavadin’s name for Scadrial?

Justification: We know that around the time of the True Desolation (which is set slightly before the Wax and Wayne stories), Harmony starts noticing other, hidden Shards “encroaching upon [his] world”. At the same time, Autonomy mentions to Hoid that a new female avatar is developing on Obrodai, which could very well refer to Telsin. Autonomy also warns Hoid not to return. We obviously don’t know all the worlds Hoid has visited, but it seems unlikely he’d be frequenting a world without a perpendicularity (and therefor a Shard) in residence. Therefore, unless Obrodai is a Shardworld that will become relevant in other Cosmere books, it must be Scadrial (out of all the ones we know).

In-universe reason: Autonomy names Scadrial something different to distance it from the past and make it more independent.

Out-of-universe reason: It’d be a big spoiler for Brandon to just namedrop Scadrial in Oathbringer.

 

EDIT: Looking online, it seems Brandon semi-referred to Obrodai as a new Shardworld, but this theory is still plausible since Brandon RAFO’d a question asking if we’ve seen Obrodai before.

I doubt this, because of this WoB.

Quote

Questioner

How many of the worlds in the cosmere do you eventually plan to talk about that we don't know about?

Brandon Sanderson

...From what's been released, you've gotten almost all the important ones. There's, like, two or three ones I would consider relevant to... for instance, the planet that the Aethers, from Aether of Night, which is an unpublished book-- that's still part of the cosmere, I'm gonna do some stuff there. There are a couple of other worlds, one is mentioned in Oathbringer, just very briefly, in one of the epigraphs. There are others that I'll get to. But, when I designed the cosmere: Scadrial (Mistborn), Sel (Elantris), and Roshar were my pillars of the Cosmere story. With Yolen, the planet where it all started, just kind of being behind-the-scenes relevant. Those are the pillars of our story. Other planets will come into it, but those three-- there's nothing more important than the ones you've seen already.

This implies that Obrodai is separate from Scadrial, and implies we haven't seen it before. 

 

But it isn't out of the question, he could have been purposely misleading, given 

Quote

"We also instruct that you should not return to Obrodai We have claimed that world, and a new avatar of our being is beginning to manifest there.

She is young yet, and--as a precaution--she has been instilled with an intense and overpowering dislike of you."

That this does definitely fall in line with Telsin.  So it could definitely still be Scadrial. 

Quote

XS-Terrain

Have we seen the new Shardworld yet? ...Obrodai? 

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

 Him hiding if we saw it or not seems to imply that we have seen it, as if we hadn't, a simple "no" wouldn't have spoiled anything. But again, he could be trying to make us theorize and such. 

 

Overall, I am mixed on this theory. 

[Nesh]

 I just had a thought.  I'm pretty sure at this point Harmony is going to willingly become Discord given what he said in this chapter.  He keeps musing on moving too slowly, and we know his hands are tied due to balancing the opposing Intents of Ruin and Preservation.  Sazed will likely purposely imbalance himself so that he may act more quickly to future threats.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Nesh

[Subvisual Haze]

Quote

“Autonomy is driven to divide off from the rest of us, go her own way. She pushes her followers to prove themselves, and she rewards those who are bold, who survive against the odds. She respects big plans and big accomplishments.

Ha, I think Harmony is really foreshadowing a certain Survivor outclassing Telsin for the job of Autonomy's avatar.

[teknopathetic]

2 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Ha, I think Harmony is really foreshadowing a certain Survivor outclassing Telsin for the job of Autonomy's avatar.

Kelsier becoming the avatar and then betraying Autonomy would be an interesting twist. I wonder if Autonomy would be able to revoke powers? Seems difficult based on her intent, and also in semi-foreshadowed as a problem when we saw Odium and his people. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by teknopathetic

[StormingTexan]

1 hour ago, Nesh said:

I'm just really glad Trell isn't Odium.  I mean Odium's already taken out Devotion, Dominion, Ambition, and Honor.  We were kind of getting to the point where that Shard was behind everything.  A new antagonist is a nice change of pace is all I'm saying.

I 100% agree. Honestly I was going to be really disappointed if it turned out to be Odium. With the timeline and everything going on with Roshar it would have just felt clumsy in my opinion. We need a new bad guy! 

 

[teknopathetic]

I wonder if Trell is still around? Is he still an Avatar on Scadrial, or did he get diposed in favour of Telsin? Is Tell waiting with the armies? 

Edited November 15, 2022 by teknopathetic

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

...[Obrodai being another name for Scadrial] isn't out of the question, he could have been purposely misleading, given:

"We also instruct that you should not return to Obrodai We have claimed that world, and a new avatar of our being is beginning to manifest there.

She is young yet, and--as a precaution--she has been instilled with an intense and overpowering dislike of you."

That this does definitely fall in line with Telsin.  So it could definitely still be Scadrial. 

 Him hiding if we saw it or not seems to imply that we have seen it, as if we hadn't, a simple "no" wouldn't have spoiled anything. But again, he could be trying to make us theorize and such. 

 

Overall, I am mixed on this theory. 

Yes, it aligns well with what we see happening on Scadrial in Era 2 now that we know Trell = Autonomy, except for the timing.

That quote is from Autonomy's reply to Hoid, in one of the letters that we get as epigraphs in Oathbringer (SA3), when we know that the events of the Wax/Wayne stories "take place between SA5 and SA6".

I don't think Telsin could already have been an Avatar of Autonomy that long ago. In fact, Harmony says that Autonomy approached him "a year ago" with the ultimatum ("beat it and leave Scadrial to me..."), when the events of BoM happened six years earlier; and it was while rejecting that ultimatum that "one of the last things I saw was the person Autonomy has chosen" who had changed her mind about destroying Scadrial (also from the end of BoM).

So while Telsin had been fairly high ranking before in the Set, as Sequence, she is now Avatar of Trell and rules the Set completely.

[Firesong]

58 minutes ago, robardin said:

Yes, it aligns well with what we see happening on Scadrial in Era 2 now that we know Trell = Autonomy, except for the timing.

That quote is from Autonomy's reply to Hoid, in one of the letters that we get as epigraphs in Oathbringer (SA3), when we know that the events of the Wax/Wayne stories "take place between SA5 and SA6".

I don't think Telsin could already have been an Avatar of Autonomy that long ago. In fact, Harmony says that Autonomy approached him "a year ago" with the ultimatum ("beat it and leave Scadrial to me..."), when the events of BoM happened six years earlier; and it was while rejecting that ultimatum that "one of the last things I saw was the person Autonomy has chosen" who had changed her mind about destroying Scadrial (also from the end of BoM).

So while Telsin had been fairly high ranking before in the Set, as Sequence, she is now Avatar of Trell and rules the Set completely.

I thought she was starting to become an Avatar before that, but might have misread it. 

But it not being Telsin would fit with a few WoBs of Obrodai being something we haven't seen. But the whole RAFO on if we've seen it or not does raise suspicions. 

Quote

Autonomy decided to destroy our world, as it is a dangerous threat to her. But I believe she has been persuaded to let it persist, so long as it can be… controlled.

I wonder why she finds Scadrial itself a threat. Maybe she sees that the people might begin to expand across the Cosmere in the future. Not exactly sure. 

Quote

“Autonomy is driven to divide off from the rest of us, go her own way. She pushes her followers to prove themselves, and she rewards those who are bold, who survive against the odds. She respects big plans and big accomplishments.

Something to do with this, of course. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Firesong

[hitkay]

I like this reveal.

I'm one of the people who likes the cosmere a whole lot more than the actual books (yes, one of those), but one strength of the books has generally been that the Intents of the Shards involved work thematically. Stormlight is about balancing duty and passion, hence Honor and Odium, with some colonization thrown in, hence Cultivation. Wax and Wayne is about Wax as a lawman, hence a Harmony between Ruin and Preservation. Dominion and Devotion work for Elantris. The main theme of Warbreaker seems to be about how people can always subvert others' expectations as well as their own, and I'm not sure what Shard that would be but it isn't Endowment, but Endowment is at least passable. The main disappointment in this regard has been Mistborn, because the entire first book is about tearing down the status quo, and the next two books have Preservation as an ideal and Ruin as the most antagonistic force on the planet.

So I really like what Autonomy brings to Scadrial, thematically. Harmony tries to forge alliances and encourage peace, while Autonomy values individual strength and standing out from the crowd, yet they both work towards individual freedom. Both use agents almost exclusively, although for Autonomy this is a preference and for Harmony this is a necessity. It's a very interesting political contrast, with some shared values and some goals in fierce opposition, and though Autonomy is clearly the antagonistic force, neither Intent is objectively better than the other when applied to Scadrian politics. It reminds me of the fundamental core of the abortion debate, whether the individual values the right to autonomy higher than the right to life or vice versa. As with the singer/human conflict in Stormlight, there's no clear answer to a Harmony/Autonomy political conflict, unless Autonomy is, you know, trying to destroy the planet.

I don't think there are any two Shards in the cosmere with more interesting potential interactions than Harmony and Autonomy, except for Devotion and Dominion, but we're never seeing that. So I hope Era 3 gives us Autonomy as an influence on Scadrial in opposition to Harmony, rather than Autonomy repeatedly trying to destroy the planet. That would be such a waste.

[ftl]

Ooh, and after this chapter we know why there was a "Dual threat" of the return of ash, or of the men of red and gold. Telsin wants to conquer the place, apparently by returning the ash and destruction. But if she fails, THEN autonomy sends the "men of red and gold", whatever that is.

[CognitiveShadow]

7 minutes ago, ftl said:

Ooh, and after this chapter we know why there was a "Dual threat" of the return of ash, or of the men of red and gold. Telsin wants to conquer the place, apparently by returning the ash and destruction. But if she fails, THEN autonomy sends the "men of red and gold", whatever that is.

Wow, that fits very nicely! And I could see that men of red and gold being some army that Odium has at least helped Autonomy prepare, maybe even the Rosharans after they fall to Taravodium in SA5 (just my guessing)

[ftl]

Definitely possible!

If I'm right, then unfortunately in this book we won't find out the men-of-red-and-gold plotline. W&W4 will deal with Telsin, and then Era 3 will deal with Autonomy and the men of red and gold.

[Edit] (spoiler: reviewing my prediction)

Spoiler

Nope! I was not right. Of course I wasn't. Brandon never has his villains stick around - once an enemy is introduced, they won't last past the next finale. Autonomy's Red-And-Gold men are back to being stuck in Shadesmar, dealt with for now.

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by ftl

[+Child of Hodor]

2 minutes ago, ftl said:

Definitely possible!

If I'm right, then unfortunately in this book we won't find out the men-of-red-and-gold plotline. W&W4 will deal with Telsin, and then Era 3 will deal with Autonomy and the men of red and gold.

That's probably right. Autonomy will strike more directly in Era 3 which was probably always the plan for Brandon considering Era 2 was only going to be a stand alone book and then he expanded it. 

[Wookieguy]

What I'm really intrigued to know is Autonomy's reason for wanting to destroy Scadrial. Getting entangled in other people / Shard's affairs doesn't seem very Autonomous. What would drive such a thing?

Evidence the first:

Quote

No longer. Recent advances have made civilization here too dangerous. Allowing it to continue risks further advances we cannot control, and so we have decided to remove life on this sphere instead. Thank you for your service; it has been accepted. You will be allowed to serve in another Realm.

- Bands of Mourning, Epilogue. (Faceless Immortal--apparently of Trell--dispatching Suit)

Quote

Autonomy decided to destroy our world, as it is a dangerous threat to her. But I believe she has been persuaded to let it persist, so long as it can be… controlled. Autonomy offered me an ultimatum last year, as my blinding was taking effect and when she assumed I would be the most desperate. She demanded I give this world to her, then move to another.

- The Lost Metal, Chapter 19. (Harmony to Wax)

The implications as they seem:

1. Civilization on Scadrial is what Autonomy is afraid of, not necessarily the Shard.
2. Certain future advances (implied: techno-magical) are a threat to Autonomy.
3. Harmony could move to another world.

I see two "easy" possibilities:

• Scadrians and their magic are uniquely suited to dominate the Cosmere. They are very likely to develop power quicker than other worlds and this power will always be more effective than their opponents. Autonomy fears a pan-Cosmere empire which would dilute the autonomy of the worlds.
  • Counterpoint: The potential of the Knight's Radiant for defending their planet against a Scadrian takeover is formidable. A full-oath Radiant is among the most powerful humans in popular fiction. And all that is without much technology: imagine them modernized like the Scadrians will be.
• Scadrian magic is uniquely suited to tap into the heart of how the Cosmere works and leverage deep secrets Autonomy fears. Such as the secret of how to re-join Adonalsium, which is something Autonomy is against. The magic of Scadrial may be similar to that on Yolen that aided in taking down Adonalsium.
  • Bavadin may know this secret herself. She may have known more about how the Shattering happened than some of the other Vessels.
  • Counterpoint: Isn't destroying all life on Scadrial overkill? It shouldn't be all that hard to keep a people out of the modern tech level with careful infiltration. Build an army of kandra to stalk the planet and assassinate people developing magi-tech. Done.

What other reasons for such drastic and violent meddling on Scadrial do you folks surmise?

More questions: What would happen if Harmony left? The people of Scadrial were created from whole cloth by his shards. If those shards can be replaced, what else does this imply?

Edited November 15, 2022 by Wookieguy