My life to yours, my X become yours [Implications of Memory Breaths]

[Benkinsky they/them]

Apologies if this has been posted already and I didn't find it, or if this is so obvious it doesn't warrant its own post.

I was talking to a friend who recently read Warbreaker, and I had this thought when we talked about the potential that Awakening had that is still underused. And while the obvious one is Type Four (Five) Invested Entities, I think RoW showed us a glimpse of another potential application of Breath:

Storing Attributes

What we saw at the end of RoW in the Meeting between Hoid and TOdium was Hoid losing memories that he had stored in Breaths. In Breaths, or As Breaths.

So, who's to say that that's only possible with Memories? You probably see where I'm going with this. (And why I think it might have been posted already)

Feruchemy and Awakening are both End-Neutral systems. And while their applications are different, they both are End-neutral because of the closed loops they utilize.

 

In Awakening, you give your breath to something or someone, which endows them with the powers associated with it. They can utilize your breath, no more than what you've given.

In Feruchemy, you store attributes in your metalminds. Specific Metals allow for the storage of specific attributes. You can later get these attributes back, no more than what you've given.

Now, Feruchemy uses the kinds of metals as keys. Depending on what metal you (can) use, you store different attributes. From how I understand it, Feruchemists use their innate investiture, which is somehow imprinted with the attributes. Attributes in form of Investiture, to be used later.

Now, we've seen Hoid do this with Breath. Storing Memories in a different form of Investiture. Of course, Hoid had a lot of time to practice and figure things out, but I think this is an angle of BioChromatic Breath that we might see more of in the future. Storing Attributes and giving these to others. We've seen something similar with Unkeyed Metalminds, where I could store wakefulness, strength, speed etc. and give it to you to tap. For Breath, the difficulty is just figuring out how to store attributes in Breath. I don't know if you need to be a Feruchemist too for that, if you need a specific command or whatever. But once you figure that out, it could be as simple as

My life to yours, my Strength become yours.

My life to yours, my Memories to yours.

My life to yours, my Health to yours.

etc. etc.

What do you think? Is this possible? How difficult would it be? Does it make sense to expect more of this in the future or will just Worldhoppers like Hoid be able to figure it out?

[+robardin he/him]

Vasher also removes memories with Breath - the memories of abuse from the traumatized kidnapped little girl that he and Vivenna rescue, the offer of taking the dark memories from Denth, and (it's implied) siphoning off unwanted memories of his own. "I know the Commands."

In fact, it's not just implied, Brandon outright admits it in a WoB:

Quote

Snote85

Did Vasher do to himself something similar to what Cultivation did to Dalinar, with his memory? I know in Warbreaker he says he knew the commands to take Denth's memories of things they'd done in the past away. Is there a chance he is not "whole" in his ability to recall his past?

Brandon Sanderson

It's safe to say that Vasher's memory has a few holes.

General Reddit 2017 (Dec. 10, 2017)

Did those memories get "locked away" or actually excised? Are they stored for later retrieval, like with a coppermind? What happens if Hoid uses Breath to Awaken (as he did in Kholinar), does he have to visualize not using those Breaths that have his memories in them?

Edited August 9, 2022 by robardin

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

So are you asking about storing into a breath itself?  I figure awakening being end neutral in that you use breaths and can retrieve them is what was meant.  

We do see that making a lifeless used to take many breaths until a better command was discovered that now allows just 1 breath to do the job.  

Making cloth give your legs strength takes many breaths right now but perhaps there is a future where it would just take 1 breath and correct command to act more as a metalmind using your strength and the breath combined... 

I so badly want Warbreaker part 2 but it looks to be on the backburner for a good while still.  For warbreaker being my favorite book it is sad that we got so little of, in my opinion, the dang coolest magic system written.  

So many unanswered questions.  

[Benkinsky they/them]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

it would just take 1 breath and correct command to act more as a metalmind using your strength and the breath combined.

Yeah, something like that definitely sounds plausible, right? Something between unkeyed Metalminds, Breath, and even Kandra Blessings. Where the breath doesn't just give life, but additional attributes if you know how to do it. Maybe even up to things like sentience (which Divine Breaths can give), or, since Feruchemists can store and tap Connection and Connection has some funky applications, as we've seen with Ishar and Dalinar, you could even give away stuff like Nahel Bonds? Would be freaky.

Give Identity to something. Endow your breath with speed, and then awaken your boots. Etc.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

7 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

Yeah, something like that definitely sounds plausible, right? Something between unkeyed Metalminds, Breath, and even Kandra Blessings. Where the breath doesn't just give life, but additional attributes if you know how to do it. Maybe even up to things like sentience (which Divine Breaths can give), or, since Feruchemists can store and tap Connection and Connection has some funky applications, as we've seen with Ishar and Dalinar, you could even give away stuff like Nahel Bonds? Would be freaky.

Give Identity to something. Endow your breath with speed, and then awaken your boots. Etc.

I like the idea behind it all.  I don't know how much speed your boots would be able to grant you in this way.  Feruchemy has you storing a portion now for later.  This seems like a much longer way around to storing a much smaller amount of speed if it is possible.  

I can see this being used in conjunction with feruchemy much better.   If you can only store what you have available to store right now into breath and then try to awaken with that... a person with a metalmind already filled and transferring it to breath would be far more efficient than either on their own.  Internally storing feruchemical batteries of power and attributes into breath and losing the shackles that are metalminds would be great.  

Then if you could suppress your breath down to a drab and keep your metalmind stores in your suppressed breath you have the perfect assassin.  No detectable investiture or metal on your person and a walking battery of feruchemical and awakening potential.  

This scenario isn't too far fetched with medallions and unless something big has happened on Nalthis that planet honestly carries the potential to have the highest raw investiture in its people in the entire cosmere.  Bummer deal that some of the cultures don't believe in passing on breaths... if you simply kept them in the family you could have insane amounts of breaths through the generations.... not to mention we don't know how a nicrosil compounder with breath would look... I think that is all RAFO... 

Back on topic.  Storing memories is different than storing other, more physical, attributes.  A memory into a breath is a lot different than a portion of your speed into a breath.  A portion of your speed at this moment doesn't mean much in terms of being helpful in the future.  Unless you can make a connection to that breath that allows continual low flow until said breath reaches capacity.... I feel like breaths are much harder to isolate than a metalmind.  In fact without awakening something to store breaths (at least as much is needed to awaken said object) breath seems to work pretty well clumped all or nothing. 

[Benkinsky they/them]

12 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Feruchemy has you storing a portion now for later.  This seems like a much longer way around to storing a much smaller amount of speed if it is possible.  

 

12 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Internally storing feruchemical batteries of power and attributes into breath and losing the shackles that are metalminds would be great.  

We're thinking in the same direction! While yeah, imbuing your boots is suboptimal compared to just tapping steel, you could give someone else your boots. Or Armguards. Or wakefulness. etc. I imagine giving away your strength or other physical attributes to someone would be similar to how you feel while you're storing. You get those attributes back when your breath returns.

I agree that Nalthis has a lot of potential, and we've already seen that seemingly, more Nalthians are cosmere-aware than others. Traders roaming around in Shadesmar, the Five Scholars being worldhoppers... I think if a few Worldbringers visited Nalthis, there would be a lot of potential for cooperative discovery there. Unless it is specifically groups that consider this kind of thing heresy.

While Dadradah ( https://coppermind.net/wiki/Dadradah ) didn't originate on Nalthis, we know it has some influence. Ancient connections. Maybe Nalthis will become an Ally of Scadrial in the Space Age. I for one would love that.

Nicrosil compounding could be so powerful for Awakening, or for wielding weapons like Nightblood that eat Investiture like noone's business.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, the hints of Breath memory manipulation (Vasher's forgetfulness Commands in Warbreaker and Hoid's memory storage in RoW) suggest that Awakening can do much more than the standard "animate corpse/object" effect.

I'm not sure it would necessarily be as broad as Feruchemy though. There's a theory (which IIRC Brandon said was at least in the right direction) that Awakening copies a part of the Awakener's Cognitive Aspect based on the Command/Intent into the object when Breath is transferred. (Thus giving Vasher's doll the understanding of what keys are, etc.)

If that theory is correct, the memory manipulation may work on the same principle (copying your memories into a Breath - just in this case doing it in a way that deletes it from your brain in the process). If so, Breath might only be able to store Cognitive things.

And memories in Feruchemy are discrete, where other attributes aren't  ... so you might be able to store mental speed or wakefulness in Breath, but depending on how the "tapping" equivalent works it might be less useful. (If you get it all in one jolt, for example.)

Hmm, or maybe it could only store discrete things? So maybe someone could transfer an Allomantic power using Breath - "Endowing" it to another? I can't see that being very widely used, at least without something like Nicrosil Compounding to copy multiple 'instances' of a power... but there would still be niche applications. (EG giving up not-very-useful Gold Allomancy to let your Feruchemist friend have Gold Compounding.)

[bmcclure7]

On 8/10/2022 at 1:18 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, the hints of Breath memory manipulation (Vasher's forgetfulness Commands in Warbreaker and Hoid's memory storage in RoW) suggest that Awakening can do much more than the standard "animate corpse/object" effect.

I'm not sure it would necessarily be as broad as Feruchemy though. There's a theory (which IIRC Brandon said was at least in the right direction) that Awakening copies a part of the Awakener's Cognitive Aspect based on the Command/Intent into the object when Breath is transferred. (Thus giving Vasher's doll the understanding of what keys are, etc.)

If that theory is correct, the memory manipulation may work on the same principle (copying your memories into a Breath - just in this case doing it in a way that deletes it from your brain in the process). If so, Breath might only be able to store Cognitive things.

And memories in Feruchemy are discrete, where other attributes aren't  ... so you might be able to store mental speed or wakefulness in Breath, but depending on how the "tapping" equivalent works it might be less useful. (If you get it all in one jolt, for example.)

Hmm, or maybe it could only store discrete things? So maybe someone could transfer an Allomantic power using Breath - "Endowing" it to another? I can't see that being very widely used, at least without something like Nicrosil Compounding to copy multiple 'instances' of a power... but there would still be niche applications. (EG giving up not-very-useful Gold Allomancy to let your Feruchemist friend have Gold Compounding.)

How about age? It could be away of making someone immortal by having a lot of people give him a fiew years.

[cometaryorbit]

On 8/14/2022 at 7:53 AM, bmcclure7 said:

How about age? It could be away of making someone immortal by having a lot of people give him a fiew years.

It might be possible, depending on what the limits are. If it is limited to Cognitive things or discrete things, then presumably not.

Increasing lifespan is already a basic effect of Breath though - Fifth Heightening gives agelessness, but smaller amounts of Breath do improve health and lifespan; it's mentioned that First Heightening people live about a decade longer than usual.

EDIT: which is actually pretty interesting on further thought. A decade extra at First Heightening, forever at Fifth... what do lifespans at 2nd/3rd/4th look like? Vivenna (at 3rd) says she sees two people with more Breath than her watching the Court of Gods assembly... are there 200-year-old rich people in Hallandren?

Edited August 16, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

I had this same idea!!! I'm a big fan of this theory, and it just makes sense as something you can do with Endowment's magic system- endow attributes onto others.

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 8/16/2022 at 1:54 PM, cometaryorbit said:

EDIT: which is actually pretty interesting on further thought. A decade extra at First Heightening, forever at Fifth... what do lifespans at 2nd/3rd/4th look like? Vivenna (at 3rd) says she sees two people with more Breath than her watching the Court of Gods assembly... are there 200-year-old rich people in Hallandren?

That's what I'd like to know; At what speed do you age for the other Heightenings?

Edited August 26, 2022 by Trusk'our

[Benkinsky they/them]

On 16.8.2022 at 11:43 PM, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

I had this same idea!!! I'm a big fan of this theory, and it just makes sense as something you can do with Endowment's magic system- endow attributes onto others.

Hell yeah! Exactly, right? Endowment is already the Shard that most freely gives away her power. As in, you can just leave Nalthis with a breath, there's no condition there. You were endowed with it. It's not a huge leap to imagine more being possible.

For example, connection. Say there's a Ghostblood or 17th shard agent who was born on Nalthis. They want to go out into the Cosmere, someone else from the Organisation has to take their place. They manage to store their Connection to Nalthis in a breath, and give it away to the newcomer, so they'll be able to speak all the languages and correctly interpret Gestures and stuff.