Sja-Anat's Plan

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The WoB has to outright be wrong for it to be anything other than canonical.

No, the epigraph could just be a Truthwatcher saying "You know, I really should have said this earlier, but I predicted that chaining Ba-Ado-Mishram would have terrible effects like this, and I stayed quiet because I knew if I said anything we probably wouldn't do it, so I didn't, and now I feel really guilty."

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It took Dalinar over a year at the third ideal in order to see Connections. Something we know Melishi could do. Additionally, there are only two regular Truthwatchers. So with that in mind I say it would be weirder if they had seen the future.

Why would Honor keep Truthwatchers from having futuresight?

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

No, the epigraph could just be a Truthwatcher saying "You know, I really should have said this earlier, but I predicted that chaining Ba-Ado-Mishram would have terrible effects like this, and I stayed quiet because I knew if I said anything we probably wouldn't do it, so I didn't, and now I feel really guilty."

And why go through all the effort to hide it?

10 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Why would Honor keep Truthwatchers from having futuresight?

Because his goal was to limit the powers of Surgebinding, so he cut back on the most powerful abilities.

[Yumiya]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Why would Honor keep Truthwatchers from having futuresight?

A couple of reasons. Consider these quotes:
 

Quote

Questioner

So voidbinding is-- one part of voidbinding is seeing the future. And atium is also seeing the future. And I notice annotations for Elantris, you said something about seeing the future could go weird-- sends assassins. Is that a running--

Brandon Sanderson

It is a running theme in the cosmere. And it's-- Whatever path you take to do it is dangerous in the cosmere. It's kind of a sign of-- You are in dangerous territory, and drawing upon a Shard that is--

Questioner

Potentially...

Brandon Sanderson

Potentially-- Yes. I mean to say-- Dangerous territory.

Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

And of course, Wit's famous quote in Oathbringer:
 

Quote

"Be wary of anyone who claims to be able to see the future, Shallan."
"Except you, of course. Didn't you say you can see where you need to be?"
"Be wary," he repeated, "of anyone who claims to be able to see the future, Shallan."

Though I have a sneaking suspicion that seeing the future is not necessarily bad, but that it is bad to be associated with them, as a certain Secret Project group hunts them.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

And why go through all the effort to hide it?

Because if you didn't then people might find it and burn you at the stake for allowing the horrible effects of imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram?

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Because his goal was to limit the powers of Surgebinding, so he cut back on the most powerful abilities.

How is futuresight so dangerous?

2 minutes ago, Yumiya said:

A couple of reasons. Consider these quotes:

That WoB doesn't really give concrete reasons, and Wit doesn't say 'futuresight is bad' he just says 'people with futuresight are dangerous'

2 minutes ago, Yumiya said:

Though I have a sneaking suspicion that seeing the future is not necessarily bad, but that it is bad to be associated with them, as a certain Secret Project group hunts them.

Seeing the future is definitely not bad, it's just a very useful tool that can be used for good or evil, and considering the tools that Honor allowed Radiants to have, I see no reason that he wouldn't allow them futuresight as well, considering Odium allowed the very same thing. In fact, the only reason I can see for the whole futuresight is bad thing in Vorinism is that only Odium's forces had access to futuresight, so it was associated with the evil Voidbringers, and eventually came to be seen as evil.

[Rg2045]

Do truthwatchers have the ability to see the future? I would say that it definitely wasn’t part of the knights of old. Otherwise as nameless said it wouldnt be in such a bad light. (Then again, truthwatchers are known to be the most secretive order, to the irritation of others) 

also future sight isn’t necessarily bad, just “bad” on roshar. 

Illumination seems to be connected slightly to the SR so perhaps, Truthwatchers regrowth pulls “images”  or “ideals” from there and uses that to restitch the body. 
 

what effects does “corrupted” or “enlightened” spren have on the abilities.  
if we believe what Renarin is doing is indeed voidbinding, is the abilities heightening what a truthwatcher would naturally be inclined to? 
 

so what I’m trying to say, is perhaps truthwatchers on their own don’t have “good future sight” but infused with odium they become somewhat “acceptable” with it. 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Because if you didn't then people might find it and burn you at the stake for allowing the horrible effects of imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram?

So why use the word "foresaw"?

Roshar is very careful about seeing the future, they wouldn't use such a word without meaning it.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

How is futuresight so dangerous?

I said powerful, not dangerous.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

So why use the word "foresaw"?

Roshar is very careful about seeing the future, they wouldn't use such a word without meaning it.

Yeah. He foresaw that things would go to Damnation after Mishram was bound, and feels really guilty. He doesn't have to have literally seen the future to use that word. What other word is their to describe it? Predicted? Doesn't have the same weight. Guessed? Again, doesn't have the same weight. All I'm saying is that there are other interpretations of that gemstone archive other than 'all Truthwatchers could see the future, but Honor bound their powers'

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I said powerful, not dangerous.

Then why is it bound? Honor bound the surges to prevent the destruction of Roshar. How would futuresight destroy a planet?

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yeah. He foresaw that things would go to Damnation after Mishram was bound, and feels really guilty. He doesn't have to have literally seen the future to use that word. What other word is their to describe it? Predicted? Doesn't have the same weight. Guessed? Again, doesn't have the same weight. All I'm saying is that there are other interpretations of that gemstone archive other than 'all Truthwatchers could see the future, but Honor bound their powers'

If this were any other planet you would be correct. However this is Roshar, the planet where games of chance are forbidden because they are too close to seeing the future. If a Rosharan said they foresaw something they ment it.

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Then why is it bound? Honor bound the surges to prevent the destruction of Roshar. How would futuresight destroy a planet?

How does Connection Manipulation destroy a planet? Or seeing Connections for that matter?

The Cataclysm of Ashyn was only possible with the Dawnshards. However even with that Honor still felt a need to restrict Surgebinding. If he were just trying to contain destructive powers he would have forbidden Division. However he didn't. He is trying to cut back on the power of Surgebinding, not just it's most destructive aspects.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

If this were any other planet you would be correct. However this is Roshar, the planet where games of chance are forbidden because they are too close to seeing the future. If a Rosharan said they foresaw something they ment it.

So what other word would you use?

Just now, Frustration said:

How does Connection Manipulation destroy a planet? Or seeing Connections for that matter?

Connect the surface of a planet to the sun?

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

The Cataclysm of Ashyn was only possible with the Dawnshards.

Source?

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

However even with that Honor still felt a need to restrict Surgebinding. If he were just trying to contain destructive powers he would have forbidden Division. However he didn't. He is trying to cut back on the power of Surgebinding, not just it's most destructive aspects.

Why restrict something that is both extremely useful against Odium and also poses little threat for destruction on a large scale?

[cometaryorbit]

Also, we don't know how much leeway Honor had - could he edit detailed aspects of how each Surge works, or was he more limited? If he did something broader like limiting Spiritual Realm powers of Surgebinding, the same action might have impeded Unchained Bondsmith super-powers and Truthwatcher future-sight.

--

Do we actually know that the prohibition on attempting to divine the future goes back to Silver Kingdoms era? It used to be suggested that that was a Sunmaker invention.

--

Honor might not have expected that the greater, more dangerous Surgebinding powers were needed. It's not clear exactly what the Honorblades are even for, given that the Heralds have to be dead to do their job of Isolating the Fused on Braize, but according to the Stormfather, Honor thought the Oathpact was a permanent solution to the Fused, and also the Fused didn't originally have Surges.

So if the limitations on Surgebinding were added when Honor set up the Heralds, he wouldn't have expected the greater abilities to be needed.

Edited August 3, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

So what other word would you use?

"Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I could have prevented this."

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Connect the surface of a planet to the sun?

And how would a Bondsmith touch the sun? And even if they could the amount of Stormlight needed to maintain that, even for a second, surpasses the amount on Roshar at any given time.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Source?

"'The most powerful forms of Surgebinding transcend traditional mortal understanding," Nikli said. . . . 'All their greatest applications require Intent and a Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning--the breadth of understanding--of a deity. And so, The Dawnshards."-(Dawnshards pages 270-271).

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Why restrict something that is both extremely useful against Odium and also poses little threat for destruction on a large scale?

Did he have a choice? For all we know it could have been an all or nothing.

And what happens when you mix futuresight with Dawnshards?

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

"Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I could have prevented this."

Doesn't get the same message across.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And how would a Bondsmith touch the sun? And even if they could the amount of Stormlight needed to maintain that, even for a second, surpasses the amount on Roshar at any given time.

Bondsmiths can forge permanent connections, as evidenced by Ishar's attempt to steal Dalinar's bond to the Stormfather, and his connection to Odium as an adversary. And while making a connection to the sun might not work, Bondsmiths can manipulate Shards, amplify Surgebinding, and tons of other extremely dangerous stuff like that.

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

"'The most powerful forms of Surgebinding transcend traditional mortal understanding," Nikli said. . . . 'All their greatest applications require Intent and a Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning--the breadth of understanding--of a deity. And so, The Dawnshards."-(Dawnshards pages 270-271).

The Dawnshards might be necessary for the greatest applications of Surgebinding, but are the greatest applications of Surgebinding necessary for planetary destruction? the Shattered plains say no.

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Did he have a choice? For all we know it could have been an all or nothing.

Why would it be? Radiants still have powers, so it's not like he was stripping all of their power away, merely that which he deemed too dangerous.

24 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And what happens when you mix futuresight with Dawnshards?

Any Radiant+Dawnshard would be really really dangerous, regardless of whether or not Honor was binding their powers.

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Doesn't get the same message across.

If the Radiant was that concerned with messaging they wouldn't have implied that they could see the future.

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The Dawnshards might be necessary for the greatest applications of Surgebinding, but are the greatest applications of Surgebinding necessary for planetary destruction? the Shattered plains say no.

You have proof that non-dawnshard Surgebinding is what destroyed the Shattered plains?

7 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Why would it be? Radiants still have powers, so it's not like he was stripping all of their power away, merely that which he deemed too dangerous.

So why couldn't Bondsmiths see Connections? That's a non-dangerous but incredibly useful power.

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Any Radiant+Dawnshard would be really really dangerous, regardless of whether or not Honor was binding their powers.

Yes, but Honor was still concerned with limiting Surgebinding, even after they lost the Dawnshards.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

If the Radiant was that concerned with messaging they wouldn't have implied that they could see the future.

They didn't imply that. They just gave an ambiguous statement that could be interpreted that way.

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You have proof that non-dawnshard Surgebinding is what destroyed the Shattered plains?

You have proof that Dawnshard Surgebinding is what destroyed the Shattered plains?

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So why couldn't Bondsmiths see Connections? That's a non-dangerous but incredibly useful power.

Because seeing Connections allows them to manipulate them. It is part of a power that is insanely dangerous. What makes futuresight anywhere near that dangerous?

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes, but Honor was still concerned with limiting Surgebinding, even after they lost the Dawnshards.

Because unbound Surgebinding could destroy a planet? Just because you don't want someone to have a Death Star doesn't mean you want them to have nukes.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

They didn't imply that. They just gave an ambiguous statement that could be interpreted that way.

Again, any other world you would be right. This is Roshar.

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

You have proof that Dawnshard Surgebinding is what destroyed the Shattered plains?

I am unaware of any proof that links Surgebinding with the destruction of the Shattered plains.

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Because seeing Connections allows them to manipulate them. It is part of a power that is insanely dangerous.

Melishi thought otherwise. Even going so far as to call seeing them about as useful as knowing what color scarf you brother had.

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

What makes futuresight anywhere near that dangerous?

I don't think the danger played into it as much as you think. This is Honor we are talking about. He needs no motivation other than keeping power in check.

7 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Because unbound Surgebinding could destroy a planet?

With the help of Dawnshards.

7 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Just because you don't want someone to have a Death Star doesn't mean you want them to have nukes.

So why allow division?

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Again, any other world you would be right. This is Roshar.

We don't even know that the stigma against futuresight ran that deeply back in the day. Modern-day Vorinism has mangled quite a few things.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I am unaware of any proof that links Surgebinding with the destruction of the Shattered plains.

This epigraph from WoR:

Quote

"They blame our people / For the loss of that land. / The city that once covered it / Did range the eastern strand. / The power made known in the tomes of our clan / Our gods were not who shattered these plains."

What other powers are there on Roshar besides Surges?

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Melishi thought otherwise. Even going so far as to call seeing them about as useful as knowing what color scarf you brother had.

No, he said it was about as useful as that for everyone besides a Bondsmith, who can manipulate them.

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't think the danger played into it as much as you think. This is Honor we are talking about. He needs no motivation other than keeping power in check.

Honor is about oaths. Not about needlessly binding everything.

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

With the help of Dawnshards.

Again, source? Dawnshards are dangerous, yes, but necessary for planetary destruction? I dunno about that.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So why allow division?

Because it's not capable of planetary destruction while bound.

[Yumiya]

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

How is futuresight so dangerous?

Well, how about the fact that Renarin can block to foresight of Odium? Would Honor want to have his and Cultivation's sight blocked that way? Would Wit?

[NameIess]

Just now, Yumiya said:

Well, how about the fact that Renarin can block to foresight of Odium? Would Honor want to have his and Cultivation's sight blocked that way? Would Wit?

Again, it doesn't make narrative sense for all Truthwatchers to have the same level of futuresight that Renarin does.

[Yumiya]

Just now, Nameless said:

Again, it doesn't make narrative sense for all Truthwatchers to have the same level of futuresight that Renarin does.

Right. I was agreeing with that. Even if Truthwatchers were able to have that ability, it was neutered by Honor, blocking it from his base surges. Sja-anat's "Enlightenment" frees the radiant spren from that restriction. 

[NameIess]

Just now, Yumiya said:

Right. I was agreeing with that. Even if Truthwatchers were able to have that ability, it was neutered by Honor, blocking it from his base surges. Sja-anat's "Enlightenment" frees the radiant spren from that restriction. 

Honor is dead. His restrictions no longer apply.

[Yumiya]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Honor is dead. His restrictions no longer apply.

Ok, if we go down that path, what about the fact that spren are representations of human ideals. Vorin beliefs are strictly against seeing the future. So, normal spren don't grant that ability.

[NameIess]

Just now, Yumiya said:

Ok, if we go down that path, what about the fact that spren are representations of human ideals. Vorin beliefs are strictly against seeing the future. So, normal spren don't grant that ability.

Spren are more than mere representations of human ideals. And originally, humans did not have those ideals. So early Radiants would have those powers.

[Yumiya]

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

So early Radiants would have those powers.

If it were normal for Truthwatchers, I think Brandon would have mentioned it in his description of the orders: https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-ten-orders-of-knights-radiant/
Those are the basis around the quiz to decide what order you would be in, something he apparently uses to decide when asked about other characters potential aptitudes for potential knighthood.

[NameIess]

26 minutes ago, Yumiya said:

If it were normal for Truthwatchers, I think Brandon would have mentioned it in his description of the orders: https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-ten-orders-of-knights-radiant/
Those are the basis around the quiz to decide what order you would be in, something he apparently uses to decide when asked about other characters potential aptitudes for potential knighthood.

Exactly. So Truthwatchers do not have futuresight. Since if they had it there is no real reason for Honor to bind it, and no other rational explanation as to why they wouldn't be able to use it, the only explanation is that they don't have it.

[Rabbit Unmade]

Seeing the future is of Odium, right? And a corrupted spren is also of all three shards. Surges are of Cultivation and Honor and seeing the future is an Odium thing. Because of the radiant’s Connection to Odium, a corrupt Truthwatcher is able to see the future. Remember how Renarin makes Odium unable to tell what’s going to happen when he’s in a place? That’s because he’s seeing the same future as Odium is.

 I do not think normal Truthwatchers could/can see the future because, again, it’s of Odium, not the other shards. Normal mistspren are not Connected to Odium and can’t see the future. Seeing the future is not a surge, it’s more a quirk of being bonded to a corrupt spren.

Does it ever say the radiant recording stuff on the emerald was a Truthwatcher though? No. I think it was probably different corrupt radiant, probably a Lightweaver, who could also see the future because they were Connected to Odium. That would explain why Renarin is the first of his kind. He is. He’s the first corrupt Truthwatcher.

I’m pretty proud of this, but feel free to rip it to shreds.