Is Surgebinding end-positive or end-neutral?

[cometaryorbit]

Bondsmiths and Fused using the Song of Prayer pull new Light from the Spiritual, but it seems like most Radiants use Stormlight from spheres and gems or the highstorm (Investiture already present in the Physical Realm). Is it end-neutral for regular Radiants but end-positive for Bondsmiths and Fused? That seems odd.

[Rg2045]

I think radiant surgebinding is end positive, 

I think fused surgebinding  is end negative, as it seems a fused single lashing is slower then a radiant single lashing. 
or perhaps it’s voidbinding that’s also end negative. Anyways that’s my thoughts 

[Duxredux he/him]

When you say end-positive and end-neutral, you're referring to the classifications given in the Ars Arcanum for Mistborn, yes? If not then the rest of my response is way off.

So... I'm going with potential writerly reasons on this one since in-world Khriss wrote all of the Ars Arcanum sections but hasn't used this terminology very often since. I think the terminology of end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative was given to hint that there were multiple "gods" or Shards who were influencing the world, and maybe to give greater clarity as to what happens when you hack the end-neutral system to work like the end-positive system, which is Compounding. There were very good "sciencey" reasons to explain this, because it directly affected the story, but I don't think the question of if the ability is end-_______ will have such plot-heavy ramifications in SA as it did in Scadrial. 

I'm going to guess that all Stormlight fueled abilities are end-positive, because the power is not coming from the Radiants themselves. Without Stormlight they cannot use their Surges, and the distinction that I am making is that they are at more or less the same level of Invested after using Stormlight. 

Voidbinding is trickier for me and I end up breaking down Fused abilities into three components. 

Ability 1: Resurrection in a Singer's body I would guess is end-negative, as the original soul is lost and some Investiture has left the system.

Ability 2: Passive Fused abilities may be end-neutral, such as indefinite flight for the Heavenly Ones. Not sure though, since technically the passive effects of a Kandra's Blessing would be considered end-negative.

Ability 3: Active Fused abilities would be end-positive as the power comes from Odium.

It gets trickier when you start looking at Shardblades and Regal forms, as the abilities seem to come from something like symbiosis rather than from power entering or leaving the system. At any rate, there's my thoughts.

[Frustration]

18 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Bondsmiths and Fused using the Song of Prayer pull new Light from the Spiritual, 

Are you saying Bondsmiths use the song of Prayer?

But on the relevant side Allomancers still need to use metals despite being end positive. So I see no reason for Surgebinding to be different.

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Are you saying Bondsmiths use the song of Prayer?

I believe the intent was to say that 1. Bondsmiths and 2. Fused using the Song of Prayer pull light from the SR

[cometaryorbit]

2 hours ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

I believe the intent was to say that 1. Bondsmiths and 2. Fused using the Song of Prayer pull light from the SR

Yes, exactly.

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

But on the relevant side Allomancers still need to use metals despite being end positive. So I see no reason for Surgebinding to be different.

Metals aren't Investiture - they're 'keys' used to pull Investiture from the Spiritual Realm.

Regular non-Bondsmith Radiants drawing from spheres/gems are using Investiture already in the Physical Realm.

[Frustration]

On 7/30/2022 at 8:09 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Yes, exactly.

Metals aren't Investiture - they're 'keys' used to pull Investiture from the Spiritual Realm.

Regular non-Bondsmith Radiants drawing from spheres/gems are using Investiture already in the Physical Realm.

What's the difference between matter and Investiture in this context?

All matter and Investiture can be converted back and forth. So for this classification is there any difference?

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

That's not what defines end-positive (or at least we think) The fact in all honesty, most magics are what would be classified as end positive. All that is required is that the investiture not be taken directly from the person, but instead an outside force.

Khriss is not entirely justified/correct in grouping magics like this.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Ta'veren Kaladin

[cometaryorbit]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

What's the difference between matter and Investiture in this context?

All matter and Investiture can be converted back and forth. So for this classification is there any difference?

Allomancy doesn't convert mass to Investiture though (except maybe in the case of atium/lerasium but those are kind of Investiture in physical form) - the metal is a key to pull Investiture in from Preservation in the Spiritual Realm (and happens to be consumed in the process). The Investiture doesn't come from the mass of the metal.

5 hours ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

That's not what defines end-positive (or at least we think) The fact in all honesty, most magics are what would be classified as end positive. All that is required is that the investiture not be taken directly from the person, but instead an outside force.

Khriss is not entirely justified/correct in grouping magics like this.

Most outside Scadrial are end-positive yeah, but Awakening is end-neutral even though you get Breaths from other people: but using the magic doesn't pull new Investiture from the Shard(s) like Allomancy or the Sel magic systems (AonDor, Forgery, etc.)

Khriss' AU essay for the Taldain System says that sand masters also do draw Investiture from the Spiritual Realm, though in very small amounts.

I think the only confirmed end-neutral systems are Feruchemy and Awakening and the only confirmed end-negative one is Hemalurgy.

I believe all the Sel systems are end-positive, drawing from the Dor, though Dakhor is weird.

And yeah to some degree it's a potentially imperfect in-world classification.

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Most outside Scadrial are end-positive yeah, but Awakening is end-neutral even though you get Breaths from other people: 

Every use of breath, other than consumption by returned, takes energy from the SR, otherwise the breath would run out

[cometaryorbit]

7 minutes ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

Every use of breath, other than consumption by returned, takes energy from the SR, otherwise the breath would run out

Energy in the physics sense yes, Investiture no. The amount of Breath doesn't increase.

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I'm not all that worried about end-positive or end-neutral, especially when I believe there's a better way to classify magics.

[Quantus he/him]

End-Positive in the sense that it's powered by an external/ambient Investiture source that doesnt cost anyone anything (which might slant it to end-negative from a certain POV). It's not about what realm the Investiture exists in (ie. Allomancy fueled by the Mist is still End-Positive). But also the terms really start to loose practical meaning off Scadrial:

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

So for the Old Magic, in this classification system of end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative, where would that fall under?

Brandon Sanderson

So, almost every magic in the cosmere is end-positive, almost every magic is relying upon an external source of Investiture to power it. So that phrasing is mostly more relevant to Scadrial than anywhere else, because that concept is how I'm dealing with things like the laws of thermodynamics, and even what they call end-neutral is relying a little bit on the power of Investiture to facilitate. So even an end-neutral magic system as they define it on Scadrial is actually not end-neutral. What you get put in you get out, but the power is facilitating that transfer… So that phrasing is kind of a... Take that as a science on.. Scadrial that does not extrapolate well, and may not even be 100% accurate.

Moderator

That would have been a great thing to know before we did the cosmere magic panel. *laughter*

Brandon Sanderson

I look at it as, is an Investiture externally powering the magic, and if you look at Allomancy, yes it is. You are drawing that power out. Feruchemy, you are putting Investiture in from your own body, it's your energy transferring to Investiture, which is being stored, which you are then drawing out, and things like that. But that changing forms is facilitated by the magic. Whereas you're stealing stuff with-- So you could look, for instance at the magic on Nalthis, you could look at that one as being-- as kind of working as end-negative, meaning "I am taking it away from someone else", or end-positive depending on if you're the one receiving it or not. So again, it's a phrasing that can be useful as a tool but doesn't scale well to the other magics.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

 

[cometaryorbit]

Ah, ok.

[bmcclure7]

On 7/30/2022 at 8:07 AM, Duxredux said:

When you say end-positive and end-neutral, you're referring to the classifications given in the Ars Arcanum for Mistborn, yes? If not then the rest of my response is way off.

So... I'm going with potential writerly reasons on this one since in-world Khriss wrote all of the Ars Arcanum sections but hasn't used this terminology very often since. I think the terminology of end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative was given to hint that there were multiple "gods" or Shards who were influencing the world, and maybe to give greater clarity as to what happens when you hack the end-neutral system to work like the end-positive system, which is Compounding. There were very good "sciencey" reasons to explain this, because it directly affected the story, but I don't think the question of if the ability is end-_______ will have such plot-heavy ramifications in SA as it did in Scadrial. 

I'm going to guess that all Stormlight fueled abilities are end-positive, because the power is not coming from the Radiants themselves. Without Stormlight they cannot use their Surges, and the distinction that I am making is that they are at more or less the same level of Invested after using Stormlight. 

Voidbinding is trickier for me and I end up breaking down Fused abilities into three components. 

Ability 1: Resurrection in a Singer's body I would guess is end-negative, as the original soul is lost and some Investiture has left the system.

Ability 2: Passive Fused abilities may be end-neutral, such as indefinite flight for the Heavenly Ones. Not sure though, since technically the passive effects of a Kandra's Blessing would be considered end-negative.

Ability 3: Active Fused abilities would be end-positive as the power comes from Odium.

It gets trickier when you start looking at Shardblades and Regal forms, as the abilities seem to come from something like symbiosis rather than from power entering or leaving the system. At any rate, there's my thoughts.

The fused are not voidbinders

[mathiau he/him]

Is Allomancy end-positive when your using thé mists to power it? This is the same question.

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

The fused are not voidbinders

Yes, Renarin and thé Unmade are the only known Voidbinders

[bmcclure7]

On 8/1/2022 at 7:57 PM, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

Every use of breath, other than consumption by returned, takes energy from the SR, otherwise the breath would run out

Wrong,  breaths come from an extra piece of your soul no the SR like stormlight much more like feruchemy. 

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

On 8/17/2022 at 3:11 PM, bmcclure7 said:

Wrong,  breaths come from an extra piece of your soul no the SR like stormlight much more like feruchemy. 

The breath itself is a part of the soul, but the energy to do things comes from the SR.

[cometaryorbit]

24 minutes ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

The breath itself is a part of the soul, but the energy to do things comes from the SR.

Yes, exactly. No new Investiture is input into the system from the Shard/Spiritual Realm except when new people are born (one Breath per person). But new energy is input by Breaths powering Lifeless/objects.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

The breath itself is a part of the soul, but the energy to do things comes from the SR.

No it comes from the breath

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

No it comes from the breath

It cannot. Also, I would appreciate it if you stayed away from answers that are entirely just saying "no this is wrong", but instead at least explain what you think to be correct.

Breaths do not wear out. Energy is output when things are awaked. The first law of thermodynamics is expanded to include investiture. If breath did not bring energy from the spiritual, one of those three things we know are true would have to be false, thus we know breath has to pull energy from the spiritual.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

It cannot. Also, I would appreciate it if you stayed away from answers that are entirely just saying "no this is wrong", but instead at least explain what you think to be correct.

Breaths do not wear out. Energy is output when things are awaked. The first law of thermodynamics is expanded to include investiture. If breath did not bring energy from the spiritual, one of those three things we know are true would have to be false, thus we know breath has to pull energy from the spiritual.

And where is that energy coming from?

The SR is composed entirely of Investiture, so unless you want to argue that each breath can pull an infinite amount of Investiture from the SR and turn it into energy, without a way to put that energy back. We just have to say "yeah this is one of those places where physics stop making sense, just ignore it."

[cometaryorbit]

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The SR is composed entirely of Investiture

Eh, is the Spiritual Realm composed entirely of Investiture? Connection and Identity (and apparently Fortune) are Spiritual.

Brandon was asked that question and didn't exactly say that it is:

Quote

Aurimus

As the two Realms, the Cognitive and the Spiritual, are, well, fictional... Are they all comprised of Investiture, completely?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. No, completely? Well, here's the thing. Investiture, matter, and energy are all the same thing in the cosmere. So, just like energy and matter are the same thing here. So, yes, everything's made of Investiture, in the same way that everything's made of energy in our world. Does that make sense?

Aurimus

So, what about what spren are made of in the Cognitive Realm? Is that just Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah, I'll dig more into that. I'm gonna go with Investiture for now, but I could change that as I move along. What I'm kind of debating is, is there a separate Cognitive state, and I don't think so. So I'm gonna go with Investiture for now.

Aurimus

How about Connection?

Brandon Sanderson

Connection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something. The question is like, "What is gravity comprised of?" And then you start asking weird questions.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

It's all made of Investiture in the sense that energy and matter are the same thing in RL; that doesn't rule out energy existing in the SR. (Matter in the usual sense can't, really, since there's no space there.

I think it's just like iron Hemalurgy adding strength to muscles - that's even an end-negative system! But it's very much taking energy from the Shards in the Spiritual.

 

[Frustration]

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Eh, is the Spiritual Realm composed entirely of Investiture? Connection and Identity (and apparently Fortune) are Spiritual.

Brandon was asked that question and didn't exactly say that it is:

It's all made of Investiture in the sense that energy and matter are the same thing in RL; that doesn't rule out energy existing in the SR. (Matter in the usual sense can't, really, since there's no space there.

I think it's just like iron Hemalurgy adding strength to muscles - that's even an end-negative system! But it's very much taking energy from the Shards in the Spiritual.

 

So since Investiture can be changed from type to type anyone in era 4 with a single breath can have infinite Investiture?

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

You'd have to do a lot of hacking your soul to manage it, because breaths are probably very specific in how the energy can manifest.