Lifesense and Feruchemy

[QafianSage]

So, in short my question is whether there's any confirmation or indications one way or another on whether the lifesense of someone who holds Breath can detect the Investiture a feruchemist stores in their metalminds. For instance, if a firesoul left out a brassmind filled with a lot of heat, would that register to someone with lifesense?

[The Silverlight Scholar]

Thats a great question. I would say probably not. As far as I can remember people with lifesense from holding breath could not detect breath stored in objects, so I would assume that metalminds would work the same. However, I am not sure how someone using any of the other magic systems would show up.

[QafianSage]

16 hours ago, The Silverlight Scholar said:

Thats a great question. I would say probably not. As far as I can remember people with lifesense from holding breath could not detect breath stored in objects, so I would assume that metalminds would work the same. However, I am not sure how someone using any of the other magic systems would show up.

That's a good point; if we were to assume that lifesense would treat a metalmind and an object with Breath invested into it the same - which I think is somewhat reasonable - it would follow that you'd need the Seventh Heightening to sense the Investiture. 

Edited July 18, 2022 by QafianSage

[cometaryorbit]

I thought this topic would be about whether a Feruchemist with Breath could store life sense in a tinmind...

 

Also, maybe this thread should be in Cosmere Discussion.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

There are WoB that only active investiture is detected with life sense. I don't know if a tin mind can store lifesence, but steelsight can be stolen with Hemalurgy, so I would expect so.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I believe a tinmind could definately store lifesense and it could potentially be compounded.  They say perfect lifesense is at the 4th heightening... what is perfect lifesense x10?   I don't know.  It would be a large advantage to store away breaths and auras while still gaining all lifesense.   

As far as invested objects go... I imagine lifesense would be able to recognize metalminds while being filled and while being tapped.  I also imagine lifesense would be great at picking up differences between living shards and dead ones as well as fabrials actively in use and be able to see any objects being interacted with by stormlight.  

I don't think coins would show up as they aren't being filled with investiture to fly but instead just pushed on by someone with the invested art to do so.  

[alder24]

On 31.12.2022 at 6:10 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I believe a tinmind could definately store lifesense and it could potentially be compounded.  They say perfect lifesense is at the 4th heightening... what is perfect lifesense x10?   I don't know.  It would be a large advantage to store away breaths and auras while still gaining all lifesense.   

Is Life Sense a literal sense or an invested ability? Life Sense detects life, but not Drabs, this means it detects investiture, as it can detect sprens etc. And you can hide in it by fully filling investiture in nicrosilmind. 

Spoiler

Oversleep

Could a Feruchemist hide from Lifesense by storing and which metals?

Brandon Sanderson

So Lifesense on Nalthis, someone storing, what now, Investiture? Could they hide from Lifesense? Um, yeah that would work.

Oversleep

And which metals would they need to store, Investiture, Connection…

Brandon Sanderson

That would probably be Investiture, that’s theoretically plausible, hiding your entire sense, a little bit easier with a copper cloud, which is how you would normally go about it, but you could make your Investiture vanish to the point that… yeah I think that’s theoretically possible.

Oversleep

So Lifesense works on Connection?

Brandon Sanderson

Lifesense works by sensing… life, so it’s not necessarily just Connection because you can go off-world from Nalthis and still sense the life to which you are not Connected.

Kraków signing (March 21, 2017)

 

 So this WoB provide answer for @QafianSage. It also makes me think that it is an invested ability, thus it would be stored in Nicrosil, not in Tin.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

35 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Is Life Sense a literal sense or an invested ability? Life Sense detects life, but not Drabs, this means it detects investiture, as it can detect sprens etc. And you can hide in it by fully filling investiture in nicrosilmind. 

  Hide contents

Oversleep

Could a Feruchemist hide from Lifesense by storing and which metals?

Brandon Sanderson

So Lifesense on Nalthis, someone storing, what now, Investiture? Could they hide from Lifesense? Um, yeah that would work.

Oversleep

And which metals would they need to store, Investiture, Connection…

Brandon Sanderson

That would probably be Investiture, that’s theoretically plausible, hiding your entire sense, a little bit easier with a copper cloud, which is how you would normally go about it, but you could make your Investiture vanish to the point that… yeah I think that’s theoretically possible.

Oversleep

So Lifesense works on Connection?

Brandon Sanderson

Lifesense works by sensing… life, so it’s not necessarily just Connection because you can go off-world from Nalthis and still sense the life to which you are not Connected.

Kraków signing (March 21, 2017)

 

 So this WoB provide answer for @QafianSage. It also makes me think that it is an invested ability, thus it would be stored in Nicrosil, not in Tin.

I think lifesense detects innate investiture specifically.  Much like bronze detects active kinetic investiture.  I imagine that given bronze and steel sight can be stored in tin then lifesense should be able to as well.  

My thoughts for lifesense being able to be stored were selfishly hoped for in a way to allow someone to lifesense through a coppercloud.  

I feel like perfect lifesense is a thing but is it strong enough to pierce a coppercloud?   We see seekers capable of piercing it but what does perfect entale?  Could a tin compounder or feruchemist store lifesense and then draw it out beyond what perfect would be?  

Spoiler

It also leaves some unanswered questions about the bands of mourning for me.  Did Wax only get to see what he saw because he was burning steel and the nicrosil was just jacking it up so much or was there perhaps tin filled with that spiritual steel sight to a point where he could draw on it and everything else. (Why wouldn't Marasi comment on that though?)

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[alder24]

13 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think lifesense detects innate investiture specifically.  Much like bronze detects active kinetic investiture.  I imagine that given bronze and steel sight can be stored in tin then lifesense should be able to as well.  

My thoughts for lifesense being able to be stored were selfishly hoped for in a way to allow someone to lifesense through a coppercloud.  

I feel like perfect lifesense is a thing but is it strong enough to pierce a coppercloud?   We see seekers capable of piercing it but what does perfect entale?  Could a tin compounder or feruchemist store lifesense and then draw it out beyond what perfect would be?  

Ok, if A-Bronze can be store in Tinmind, than Life Sense most likely as well. I've found a WoB

Spoiler

NewbSombrero

Can Feruchemical tin store Allomantically granted senses like bronze sense?

Brandon Sanderson

Possible.

General Signed Books 2018 (Feb. 8, 2018)

The previuos WoB states, that coppercloud would stop Life Sense, so perfect Life Sense won't penetrate it. However maybe compounded Life Sense could. But perfect Life Sense is a maximum you can get from Life Sense, it is as best as it could be as name suggests, so does it even make sense to make it "better" than the best? It sounds a little like trying to add more water to already filled glass of water. 

19 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Spoiler

It also leaves some unanswered questions about the bands of mourning for me.  Did Wax only get to see what he saw because he was burning steel and the nicrosil was just jacking it up so much or was there perhaps tin filled with that spiritual steel sight to a point where he could draw on it and everything else. (Why wouldn't Marasi comment on that though?)

 

This is a Warbreaker only forum, so spoilers from Mistborn books should be in spoiler box at least.

Quote

Most likely Bands contained super powerful A-steel and A-iron, and tapping it, just make his steel vision extreamly potent. Marasi didn't tap A/F-tin, she tapped F-Steel and A-steel (I think)

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Ok, if A-Bronze can be store in Tinmind, than Life Sense most likely as well. I've found a WoB

  Hide contents

NewbSombrero

Can Feruchemical tin store Allomantically granted senses like bronze sense?

Brandon Sanderson

Possible.

General Signed Books 2018 (Feb. 8, 2018)

The previuos WoB states, that coppercloud would stop Life Sense, so perfect Life Sense won't penetrate it. However maybe compounded Life Sense could. But perfect Life Sense is a maximum you can get from Life Sense, it is as best as it could be as name suggests, so does it even make sense to make it "better" than the best? It sounds a little like trying to add more water to already filled glass of water. 

This is a Warbreaker only forum, so spoilers from Mistborn books should be in spoiler box at least.

 

Fixed that.  

Spoiler

So when Marasi said she was tapping everything as much as she could she actually didn't access more than half of the metalminds?  That confuses me as she was not a feruchemist at all and I don't think someone with no access to those metalminds before could actually have said "yes I like steel and I like this and I like that but we should keep the rest for Wax."  

I haven't read that part since I was sicker than a dog last year and I honestly don't remember much about those months but I feel like I had a pretty good picture of that and hopefully it isn't playing out in my mind all wrong.  

 

 

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Fixed that.  

  Hide contents

So when Marasi said she was tapping everything as much as she could she actually didn't access more than half of the metalminds?  That confuses me as she was not a feruchemist at all and I don't think someone with no access to those metalminds before could actually have said "yes I like steel and I like this and I like that but we should keep the rest for Wax."  

I haven't read that part since I was sicker than a dog last year and I honestly don't remember much about those months but I feel like I had a pretty good picture of that and hopefully it isn't playing out in my mind all wrong.  

 

 

BoM:

Spoiler

I don't know. I think she "reach for everything" but I have no idea what that would mean, and what she would do - she certainly didn't start A-iron pulling everything towards her, or pushing A-steel everything around her. So she might just "reach for everything" in F-steel or other abilities that she was using, but not everything everything. If she tapped F-steel  "as much as she could", then it would be drained in singular burst of speed, which was not a case.

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by alder24

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

BoM:

  Hide contents

I don't know. I think she "reach for everything" but I have no idea what that would mean, and what she would do - she certainly didn't start A-iron pulling everything towards her, or pushing A-steel everything around her. So she might just "reach for everything" in F-steel or other abilities that she was using, but not everything everything. If she tapped F-steel  "as much as she could", then it would be drained in singular burst of speed, which was not a case.

 

BoM

Spoiler

I was always confused at the idea that the bands were fullborn.  I know it said they made you a fullborn to an extent but I figured it was just full feruchemy minds.   

It made more sense as I looked back at it that Wax using his steel would have improved steel sight due to nicrosil.   

I also assumed that the bands offered a supercharged steel allomancy that he didn't need to actually draw on but he only saw what he saw because he had steel to burn.  

I don't think the bands allowed any allomantic powers without burning metal.  This would account for marasi not seeing what Wax saw.   Wax was practically a savant in his usage of powers and I imagine he has a low bit of steel burning pretty well passively now so he would immediately recognize any changes to that.  

 

Back to lifesense.  

WoB says coppercloud would blot out lifesense.   It didn't say anything about perfect lifesense or how much lifesense could be obstructed.  

It is possible that lifesense, even when perfected, is simply too passive and low key to pierce a coppercloud.   It is also possible that lifesense from 1-999 breaths can be blocked by a coppercloud but once you hit 1000 breaths and the 4th heightening you are able to get fainter, but still there, sense of it.  

Copperclouds are said plainly that they block seekers.  But there are always exceptions to the rules.  

I imagine that, likewise, copperclouds block lifesense.   There are likely exceptions to the rules in terms of a persons power.  Vasher at the 3rd heightening might lose all lifesense when in a coppercloud.  Vasher might still have the ability to sense life even in the same room as that smoker at 4th heightening.  

Likewise copperclouds also vary in strength and area of effect.   It is likely that a coppercloud from a new smoker who is using a very light burn would not obscure as much as a coppercloud savant who is flaring for all their worth in and around Vasher.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 1/5/2023 at 11:59 AM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

BoM

  Reveal hidden contents

I was always confused at the idea that the bands were fullborn.  I know it said they made you a fullborn to an extent but I figured it was just full feruchemy minds.   

It made more sense as I looked back at it that Wax using his steel would have improved steel sight due to nicrosil.   

I also assumed that the bands offered a supercharged steel allomancy that he didn't need to actually draw on but he only saw what he saw because he had steel to burn.  

I don't think the bands allowed any allomantic powers without burning metal.  This would account for marasi not seeing what Wax saw.   Wax was practically a savant in his usage of powers and I imagine he has a low bit of steel burning pretty well passively now so he would immediately recognize any changes to that.  

 

Back to lifesense.  

WoB says coppercloud would blot out lifesense.   It didn't say anything about perfect lifesense or how much lifesense could be obstructed.  

It is possible that lifesense, even when perfected, is simply too passive and low key to pierce a coppercloud.   It is also possible that lifesense from 1-999 breaths can be blocked by a coppercloud but once you hit 1000 breaths and the 4th heightening you are able to get fainter, but still there, sense of it.  

Copperclouds are said plainly that they block seekers.  But there are always exceptions to the rules.  

I imagine that, likewise, copperclouds block lifesense.   There are likely exceptions to the rules in terms of a persons power.  Vasher at the 3rd heightening might lose all lifesense when in a coppercloud.  Vasher might still have the ability to sense life even in the same room as that smoker at 4th heightening.  

Likewise copperclouds also vary in strength and area of effect.   It is likely that a coppercloud from a new smoker who is using a very light burn would not obscure as much as a coppercloud savant who is flaring for all their worth in and around Vasher.  

 

On 12/31/2022 at 0:10 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I believe a tinmind could definately store lifesense and it could potentially be compounded.  They say perfect lifesense is at the 4th heightening... what is perfect lifesense x10?   I don't know.  It would be a large advantage to store away breaths and auras while still gaining all lifesense.   

As far as invested objects go... I imagine lifesense would be able to recognize metalminds while being filled and while being tapped.  I also imagine lifesense would be great at picking up differences between living shards and dead ones as well as fabrials actively in use and be able to see any objects being interacted with by stormlight.  

I don't think coins would show up as they aren't being filled with investiture to fly but instead just pushed on by someone with the invested art to do so.  

I think that it is also possible that you simply can't increase your Lifesense beyond a certain amount.

For example, you could only make your hearing so acute before physics simply didn't allow it to be enhanced further; you still need sound waves to reach your eardrum to hear whatever you're trying to hear. No matter how sensitive your hearing is, you won't be able to hear beyond what is physically possible.

But we don't know enough to be certain yet.