Why Are Connection And Identity So Involved With Each Other?

[Trusk'our]

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that Identity and Connection have a closer relation to one another than other attributes?

Hemalurgic duralumin is the only non-godmetal to take more than one attribute, which are Identity and Connection. Slaveform is created when a Singer has no Connection or Identity, and both the Connection and Identity of Singers was taken when Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured. Bonds made with Spren are related not just to Connection, but also Identity. 

These two attributes seem to be very, very closely related, and affecting one seems to usually have some affect on the other. Why is that? Is Identity formed by what Connections you have? Are they attached to the same part of the Spiritweb, explaining why Hemalurgic duralumin can take both?

I'd love it if someone could please give me their take on this, and confirm that I'm not some crazed lunatic jumping at something with no relevance.

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

I cannot confirm that you are not some crazed lunatic jumping at something with no relevance, but it seems mighty suspicious to me.

[Ixthos]

I'm hoping to do a post on this at some point in the future covering my thoughts on this, but basically I think Identity is the type of connection that spans realms and causes different "things" to be considered one thing in the Cognitive Realm - so basically every atom - or axi - that make up an object in the physical realm are joined together with Identity to form the bead or misty construct in the Cognitive Realm, and going on further to form a node in the Spiritual Realm that itself then contains connections to other nodes in the Spiritual Realm. Basically if you think of the three realms stacked on top of one another then Identity is the "vertical" connection that spans across realms, and Connection is the "horizontal" connection within the Spiritual Realm that can be seen mirrored down in the Cognitive and Physical Realm. Identity says two things are one, and are the reason individual axi become a single object in the Cognitive Realm, and Connection says two things are related but not the same.

[Honorless]

I think it's because Identity is designated by Connections, that's why it's called a Spiritweb, all the Connections you have make up and define your Identity. (This is not confirmed, just a theory)

Edited July 3, 2022 by Honorless

[Frustration]

18 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that Identity and Connection have a closer relation to one another than other attributes?

Hemalurgic duralumin is the only non-godmetal to take more than one attribute, which are Identity and Connection. Slaveform is created when a Singer has no Connection or Identity, and both the Connection and Identity of Singers was taken when Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured. Bonds made with Spren are related not just to Connection, but also Identity. 

These two attributes seem to be very, very closely related, and affecting one seems to usually have some affect on the other. Why is that? Is Identity formed by what Connections you have? Are they attached to the same part of the Spiritweb, explaining why Hemalurgic duralumin can take both?

I'd love it if someone could please give me their take on this, and confirm that I'm not some crazed lunatic jumping at something with no relevance.

Parshmen only lost their Connection

Spoiler

Questioner

In terms of discussing Identity, I know that in Emperor's Soul, they talk about Identity, and the Parshendi talk about losing their Identity, and then I was just rereading Bands of Mourning, and one of the kandra talks about how the spikes are their Identity. Are all of those things connected somehow or are they different forms of Identity?

Brandon Sanderson

They are connected, although the Parshendi losing their identity is a little more metaphorical. But yeah, the idea of these things-- Identity is an innate attribute in the cosmere that is related to your soul, your spirit, and it is one of the things that Hemalurgy can fiddle with and Feruchemy can fiddle with. It's kind of important to how the [Metallic] Arts play out, but it's important to all the magics...

Identity is involved in why you can't use another person's metalminds, right, that kind of thing. And those are all related. The Parshendi is more metaphorical. 

Questioner

I wondered because it's always capitalized, in the book.

Brandon Sanderson

Yep, and it's done intentionally. Peter always asks, "Are you sure this one is capitalized?" "Yeah."

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

I wouldn't say that Connection and Identity are any more related than say Identity and Fortune, or Connection and Investiture. Identity is just the thing in the SR that says "This thing is a tree" or "This is Dalinar". Where Connection is "Comes from this place, likes this person, hates this food" etc.

[cometaryorbit]

On 7/3/2022 at 0:48 PM, Frustration said:

Identity is just the thing in the SR that says "This thing is a tree" or "This is Dalinar". Where Connection is "Comes from this place, likes this person, hates this food" etc.

I think there's a bit more to Identity than that. It's also the "familiar resonance" that prevents Investiture from interfering. It's why an Awakener can take back their own Breaths from an object, but not someone else's; or why a Feruchemist can tap their own metalmind, but not someone else's. (Thus why manipulating Identity with Aluminum Feruchemy can allow making unkeyed metalminds.)

Edited July 5, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Frustration]

Just now, cometaryorbit said:

I think there's a bit more to Identity than that. It's also the "familiar resonance" that prevents Investiture from interfering. It's why an Awakener can take back their own Breaths from an object, but not someone else's; or why a Feruchemist can tap their own metalmind, but not someone else's. (Thus why manipulating Identity with Aluminum Feruchemy can allow making unkeyed metalminds.)

"This breath is Vasher's" "This metalmind is Sazed's"

[cometaryorbit]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

"This breath is Vasher's" "This metalmind is Sazed's"

Yeah, pretty much. But that does seem a bit similar to Connection since the metalmind or object holding Breath is separate from the Feruchemist or Awakener...

...But maybe not separate in the Spiritual? Like a Shard/Avatar kind of thing?

[+ShardlessVessel]

On 02/07/2022 at 8:09 PM, Trusk'our said:

Hemalurgic duralumin is the only non-godmetal to take more than one attribute

Copper: steals mental fortitude, memory and inteligence.

[Trusk'our]

On 7/5/2022 at 7:07 PM, ShardlessVessel said:

Copper: steals mental fortitude, memory and inteligence.

okay, but to be fair intelligence is a bit of a foggy attribute, so I would count all of that as one bundle. But that may just be my warped view on things, and I am willing to accept correction if someone can come up with a convincing argument. 

[Zrogezrg]

I understand it in that way:

Identity - investiture that encodes who/what someone/something is.

Connection - investiture that encodes relationship between identities.

Spirit web - All Connections of ones Identity

With this framework, losing Identity would mean to lose Connection as well, as it does not have an "anchor".

[Leuthie]

8 hours ago, Zrogezrg said:

I understand it in that way:

Identity - investiture that encodes who/what someone/something is.

Connection - investiture that encodes relationship between identities.

Spirit web - All Connections of ones Identity

With this framework, losing Identity would mean to lose Connection as well, as it does not have an "anchor".

The Connection remains unless both Identities being Connected are removed. One side can be Connected to the no-longer-existing Identity, with the Connection instantly Connecting should the Identity return. I'm guessing these one-sided Connections are what Dalinar used to bring Tien in to talk to Kaladin, for instance. You can remove or change the Connection without otherwise affecting the Identities being Connected, also. So Identity and Connection are related but separate attributes.

[cometaryorbit]

Being Connected to something that no longer exists does seem plausible given the timelessness of the Spiritual and effects like Gold/Malatium Allomancy.

[Zrogezrg]

10 hours ago, Leuthie said:

The Connection remains unless both Identities being Connected are removed. One side can be Connected to the no-longer-existing Identity, with the Connection instantly Connecting should the Identity return. I'm guessing these one-sided Connections are what Dalinar used to bring Tien in to talk to Kaladin, for instance. You can remove or change the Connection without otherwise affecting the Identities being Connected, also. So Identity and Connection are related but separate attributes.

I would argue that death does not remove identity, it removes Connection between physical and cognitive, and then passing to beyond between cognitive and spiritual. I would assume that Dalinar Connects Kaladin to something that exist, spiritual or some sort of cognitive aspect of Tien.

Not sure how memories work, but I would not be surprised if they are just encoded in Connections.

[+asmodeus]

I think the answer to this can change drastically, based on what particular definition of a "spiritweb" you go with, and we don't really know how Brandon thinks of it, beyond some select specific WoBs.

One way I think of it as more that your spiritual ideal, the most true, perfect form of you? The definition of that is your Identity. It's what uniquely defines and identifies your soul, differentiating and separating it from any other soul.

This way can then be expanded to define your Investiture as what constitutes your soul/ideal, your Identity as the tone your investiture resonates to, your Connections as how your soul/ideal ties and relates to other souls/ideals, and your Fortune as a representation of how your soul/ideal has changed, or can and will change in a realm where all times - past and future - are compounded together into one perfect form.

But... again, we don't know for sure, and there's easily many ways to think about this right now.

Edited July 13, 2022 by asmodeus