Moash should take up Odium... and that should be a good thing

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

Odium is hatred incarnate. Odium is passion. Odium is fervor, rage, divine wrath. And it's also unfathomable power, the power of a god. It's not going away. One way or another, odium is gonna be around at the end of the series. Now, there are of course a few ways you can make that fact less of a problem. The first is, of course, shattering Odium, like honor was shattered. I could certainly see that being the way this ends up being resolved. But there's another way to resolve this problem, too, and imo this resolution is a better fit for the themes of the stormlight archive. Someone takes up Odium who will channel it toward something good.

Hatred and rage aren't inherently bad things. We like to think that hate is bad and love is good but in reality it's just not that simple. Love can cause you to excuse and overlook things you really shouldn't. To put up with abuse. And on the other hand, hatred can be justified. Sometimes, people do things that truly deserve to be hated, that the victim simply can't forgive them for. And sometimes, systems are built on the backs of people for whom hatred is a completely logical response. Systems like slavery, and dictatorships, and racism. And not even just hatred for the people on top of those systems (though not not for that either), but also for the systems themselves and the conditions that led to their creation. Odium can be channeled for good; for giving Passion to the downtrodden and oppressed. A force for change, a fuel to the fire within. Personally, I think someone taking up the power to use it for this purpose would be a more fitting resolution than simply shattering the power. Cause stormlight archive is a story about a war against odium, yes, but it's also a story about oppressive systems and the horrors they create. Shattering Odium may be a thematic ending to the first of these, but not to the second.

Now, onto the question I know a lot of you have: Moash???

Yes, moash. Now, big disclaimer: This is something I'd expect to see at the end of his character arc (at least within this series- if he becomes a shard, we'll presumably be seeing him afterwards) which means he is absolutely not there yet. If he took up odium right now, it would not go well. But we still have one to six more books for him to evolve and grow. I see this coming after a long redemption arc. Stormlight is a series all about redemption and second chances, afterall.  Right now, he's a character consumed by hatred, but I think a much more interesting resolution than learning to let go of that hatred is learning to channel it for something good. Cause honestly, he has all that hatred for a very good reason. And I think that Moash taking up Odium could be the force for change that roshar desparately needs.

Now, there are other characters who could fill in this role as well. Chief among them, Kaladin. Kaladin has had very similar feelings as moash- they are narrative foils after all- and has every reason to personally hate oppression. He's currently in a much better emotional position to be able to do good with the power of odium than moash currently is. And at the end of Rhythm of War, we saw his eyes turn golden as he attacked the Pursuer, which is clearly setting up something, some kind of connection to odium, which means he might be in a good position to be able to take it up since you do have to be aligned with a shard in order to really hold onto it. I'll be honest, if Sanderson does go down the path of having someone take up Odium as a force for change, I fully expect it to be Kal. But I'm a moash girlie and in my heart of hearts I want it to be him, so here's my flimsy justification for why it should be. Kaladin's character arc has been more about leaving behind his hatred, and moving toward protecting people. Basically, he's been moving away from the parts of himself that are aligned with odium, while Moash has been running full force into them. And right now of course, that's really not going so well for himself or anyone around him. For Kaladin to be "odious" enough, his character would have to go backwards from where he is now to get him in a mental state more similar to the first book, whereas Moash could make forward progression and become a better person while still holding onto the odiousness that he has now.

TL;DR Having someone take up Odium and channel the power to be a force for social change would be a good resolution to multiple plots, themes, and problems presented by the books, and moash's arc could take him to where he'd be in a good position to be that person.

[Honorless]

Hell yeah!

[Treamayne]

Consider the WoR Epigraph on this topic:

Spoiler

71 - He bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.

This may indicate that for Odium's intent to be channeled for good, it would have to be held with another Shard (Harmony-style) to give it the context that is lacking.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah I don't think Odium by itself is well suited for that. Odium is rage and hate in a very raw form - in RoW we see that the power likes conflict even when the Vessel doesn't want to be questioned, that "conflict for its own sake" thing doesn't bode well for channeling it into building a more just society.

Also we see that the Fused have lost their original purpose for war - they now prey upon the Singers they once wanted to protect, literally evicting them from their own bodies fatally.

Moash seems to be going the same route... his original grievances are largely resolved, with Elhokar dead and Jasnah committing to ending slavery and working toward weakening the arbitrary power of the monarchy.

I think there's a lot of "conflict for its own sake" in Odium. Now *maybe* that was influenced by Rayse... but we also see the power wanting conflict even when Rayse doesn't, and Taravangian getting impulses to destroy wildly when he really wants to plan and plot coolly.

Odium + Honor with a particular interpretation by its Vessel, though, could imo easily become wrath against the unjust in the sense you suggest.  But doing that with Odium alone seems beyond what a Vessel can do to change a Shard.

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Frustration]

On 6/19/2022 at 6:09 AM, Treamayne said:

Consider the WoR Epigraph on this topic:

  Reveal hidden contents

71 - He bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.

This may indicate that for Odium's intent to be channeled for good, it would have to be held with another Shard (Harmony-style) to give it the context that is lacking.

Add to that the WoB's and other quotes on the topic, and we have a solid point.

It doesn't matter who the vessel is, they will end up just like Rayse eventually, molded by the power to become bringers of unlimited hatred. Only with another shard to temper Odium can it be safely held.

[Rg2045]

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

Add to that the WoB's and other quotes on the topic, and we have a solid point.

It doesn't matter who the vessel is, they will end up just like Rayse eventually, molded by the power to become bringers of unlimited hatred. Only with another shard to temper Odium can it be safely held.

Wasn’t one of the reasons rayse was so damaged was because he kept fighting the true intentions of the shard? Demanding absolute obedience instead of revealing in the passion? So we could say that rayse was odium under control. Most others would have given into the intention and been like a spren just looking to inflict hate kinda like ruin was

[+robardin]

I have theorized this in the past myself - initially as a joke, but then in a huh, actually... kind of way.

Moash is certainly passionate, and full of anger/hate... But at this point, largely at himself. And if he were the Vessel of Odium, he wouldn't be able to have Odium "take away his pain", he'd just be giving it back to himself!

And a Vessel of Odium that by nature is not seeking to eliminate all the other Shards (Rayse), nor to "fix" the Cosmere that is so broken (Taravangian), but has a large component of regretful anger, would be quite interesting.

Edited June 22, 2022 by robardin

[Frustration]

52 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

Wasn’t one of the reasons rayse was so damaged was because he kept fighting the true intentions of the shard? Demanding absolute obedience instead of revealing in the passion? So we could say that rayse was odium under control. Most others would have given into the intention and been like a spren just looking to inflict hate kinda like ruin was

Rayse was fighting, but he wasn't really able to restrain Odium, a big part of the reason he made the deal with Dalinar is that the power hated being contained, and eventually Rayse relented.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

Moash is certainly passionate, and full of anger/hate... But at this point, largely at himself. And if he were the Vessel of Odium, he wouldn't be able to have Odium "take away his pain", he'd just be giving it back to himself!

oh absolutely. like i said, he is not ready to take up odium yet. I'm assuming at some point he'll move past the "no more emotions" thing since in Row we saw him breaking through at various points. And I assume that's a major point of positive upswing for his character, when he begins to accept his emotions and his pain

[cometaryorbit]

Frankly neither Rayse (who wanted to be top dog) nor Taravangian ("You must become king. Of everything.") strike me as all that good of a fit given what we see in RoW of the power enjoying arguments even when the Vessel doesn't want to be questioned.

I'd think Odium (the power itself) would prefer a state of the universe where continual conflict is everywhere, vs. one where it/its Vessel is unquestioned ruler.