Shallan’s abilities in WOR

[Guest]

I’m rereading the whole cosmere and am in the Words of Radiance. I came across this scene right before Shallan enters the Shattered Plains. She is just drawing what she feels like drawing when:

Quote

[Shallan] paused, noticing what she’d drawn: a rocky shore near the ocean, with distinctive cliffs rising behind. The perspective was distant; on the rocky shore, several shadowy figures helped one another out of the water. She swore one of them was Yalb. A hopeful fancy. She wished so much for them to be alive. She would probably never know. She turned the page and drew what came to her. A sketch of a woman kneeling over a body, raising a hammer and chisel, as if to slam it down into the person’s face. The one beneath her was stiff, wooden . . . maybe even stone?

I had never noticed that these two scenes almost certainly are real. The first is of Yalb surviving and the second is of Shalash (shoutout to my wife for catching that). It makes me wonder if this is a part of the ability she has with Dalinar and the Stormfather to draw what either one’s seen in the Highstorm. However, Dalinar hadn’t bonded the Stormfather at this point. Furthermore, she was just thinking of her wreck before drawing and had burned a prayer to Shalash. I wonder if that’s important? Maybe she’s feeling very connected to them at that point. 
 

Do we have any information about this scene?

Edited April 13, 2022 by DougTheRug
clarity and grammar

[Eternal Khol he/him]

That's a good theory, and might be the case, but I think its more likely just Connection shenanegins. There is some Connection between Shallan and Shallash(even a small one) and Shallan is just able to pick up on and draw it due to being Invested how she is(being a lightweaver.)

There is something kinda similar in a scene also in WoR, i believe, where Syl is with Kaladain on the Shattered Plains and Syl turns into a mini version of Shallan with her chest just after she washes up on the beach after the whole boat assasination thing.

Kal and Syl hadnt met Shallan yet but they had a Connection forming.

edit:

Here is the WoB about Syl turning into Shallan. 

I think it applies to the Shallan/Shalash situation pretty well.

Spoiler

Questioner

Why is Kaladin so proficient-- Like naturally born to wield a spear. Is that a weapon he likes or is it a destiny for him?

Brandon Sanderson

So destiny is a strong term... I would say he has natural aptitude, but no more so than a normal person who has a natural aptitude for something. But the way the Spiritual Realm works in the cosmere and the way Connection works, there were certain things that were happening to Kaladin before they happened...

It's like Syl says in one of the books. "You didn't know me then, but I knew you then. Even though we hadn't met yet, I still knew you." You see some weird Connection things too. And these are mostly just for fun sort of cosmere connections. Like when you see Syl take on the look of Shallan standing on the beach. There's gonna be a connection there. It's forming, it doesn't exist yet, but all things are one in the Spiritual Realm, and we're just kinda seeing echoes of that. It's not meant to be destiny, it's more meant to be, "Hey there's little connections happening".

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average professional sports player is naturally gifted in what they do.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Eternal Khol

[Treamayne]

10 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

That's a good theory, and might be the case, but I think its more likely just Connection shenanegins. There is some Connection between Shallan and Shallash(even a small one) and Shallan is just able to pick up on and draw it due to being Invested how she is(being a lightweaver.)

There is something kinda similar in a scene also in WoR, i believe, where Syl is with Kaladain on the Shattered Plains and Syl turns into a mini version of Shallan with her chest just after she washes up on the beach after the whole boat assasination thing.

Kal and Syl hadnt met Shallan yet but they had a Connection forming.

edit:

Here is the WoB about Syl turning into Shallan. 

I think it applies to the Shallan/Shalash situation pretty well.

  Hide contents

Questioner

Why is Kaladin so proficient-- Like naturally born to wield a spear. Is that a weapon he likes or is it a destiny for him?

Brandon Sanderson

So destiny is a strong term... I would say he has natural aptitude, but no more so than a normal person who has a natural aptitude for something. But the way the Spiritual Realm works in the cosmere and the way Connection works, there were certain things that were happening to Kaladin before they happened...

It's like Syl says in one of the books. "You didn't know me then, but I knew you then. Even though we hadn't met yet, I still knew you." You see some weird Connection things too. And these are mostly just for fun sort of cosmere connections. Like when you see Syl take on the look of Shallan standing on the beach. There's gonna be a connection there. It's forming, it doesn't exist yet, but all things are one in the Spiritual Realm, and we're just kinda seeing echoes of that. It's not meant to be destiny, it's more meant to be, "Hey there's little connections happening".

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average professional sports player is naturally gifted in what they do.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

Also. . .

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson

You're making some excellent theories here; I'm not sure if I want to stamp any of them out. I like where you're going on this. I will say that this is related to where, if you read in Words of Radiance, you will see odd things sometimes happen with Investiture. There is a scene (that I don't think a lot of people pick up on) where Syl is responding to Connection threads being built and is looking different than she should look and things like this. We're looking more at the Spiritual Realm and Spirit Webs and Connections and things like that. Not to stamp out any of your theories, but also to kind of direct you—often times when I'm writing pure Investiture or beings of Investiture, they respond to echoes in the Spiritual Realm. And like I said, you'll see this in Syl sometimes.

 

 

 

 

[teknopathetic he/him]

I find it interesting that Shallan can almost "watch" what is happening to people from a distance. Shallan shares a surge with Truthwatchers, so is it possible that regular truthwatchers can do something similar but to a stronger extent? 

[Guest]

@teknopathetic It's also very interesting that Renarin's Illumination is the ability that lets him see the future. Maybe the difference between classic Illumination and Enlightened Illumination is that first shows what Honor (or the Stormfather) saw happen or cause illusions while the second shows what Honor (or the Stormfather (maybe)) could see as possibly happening or cause illusions. It would be an interesting twist on the Surge.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

3 hours ago, DougTheRug said:

@teknopathetic It's also very interesting that Renarin's Illumination is the ability that lets him see the future. Maybe the difference between classic Illumination and Enlightened Illumination is that first shows what Honor (or the Stormfather) saw happen or cause illusions while the second shows what Honor (or the Stormfather (maybe)) could see as possibly happening or cause illusions. It would be an interesting twist on the Surge.

I think Renarin or Glys mention that they get visions of what Odium is fixated upon, like seeing Dalinar succumb and give up his pain to Odium and becoming his Champion. At least, there's a bias there, since it's Odium's Investiture.

[teknopathetic he/him]

26 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I think Renarin or Glys mention that they get visions of what Odium is fixated upon, like seeing Dalinar succumb and give up his pain to Odium and becoming his Champion. At least, there's a bias there, since it's Odium's Investiture.

If that is a corruption, then I wonder what a regular Truthwatcher gets visions of? That order was so reclusive even before the era of peace, so there isnt much of a way to know. We do have that 1 Truthwatcher saying "I foresaw this" in a gem-record, but we also have a WOB saying Renarin is the first to bond a corrupted Truthwatcher Spren. Honestly, I really thought the Truthwatchers had been semi-corrupted before based on the "I foresaw this", but maybe they had some Cultivation forsight here and there. 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

Just now, teknopathetic said:

If that is a corruption, then I wonder what a regular Truthwatcher gets visions of? That order was so reclusive even before the era of peace, so there isnt much of a way to know. We do have that 1 Truthwatcher saying "I foresaw this" in a gem-record, but we also have a WOB saying Renarin is the first to bond a corrupted Truthwatcher Spren. Honestly, I really thought the Truthwatchers had been semi-corrupted before based on the "I foresaw this", but maybe they had some Cultivation forsight here and there. 

I mean, I do think that the whole "seeing the future is of the enemy" is an exaggeration or an oversimplification (or both!) made after the Recreance. Odium may be the most overtly interested in seeing the future, but Cultivation seems like an Intent that would be very skilled at it.

[teknopathetic he/him]

2 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I mean, I do think that the whole "seeing the future is of the enemy" is an exaggeration or an oversimplification (or both!) made after the Recreance. Odium may be the most overtly interested in seeing the future, but Cultivation seems like an Intent that would be very skilled at it.

I also thought it was propaganda by Odium since future-sight blocks future-sight. But then Hoid also says to be very suspicious/cautious with anyone who claims to see the future, so there appears to be some legitimate issue with futuresight. What do we make of the Sel future-sight guy at the lighthouse though? It cant ALWAYS be of something malevolent, right? 

Maybe future-sight is manipulatable and often untrustworthy? 

Edited April 14, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Returned he/him]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

But then Hoid also says to be very suspicious/cautious with anyone who claims to see the future, so there appears to be some legitimate issue with futuresight. What do we make of the Sel future-sight guy at the lighthouse though? It cant ALWAYS be of something malevolent, right? 

Maybe future-sight is manipulatable and often untrustworthy? 

I don't think that there is something fundamentally evil about seeing the future. It certainly didn't seem that way in, say, Warbreaker. But for humans and near-humans it seems problematic, because Shards can see it both much more easily and also much, much better.

So it seems to me that trying to work with your own glimpse of the future when working directly against a Shard is sort of like trying to navigate with only a fragment of a map. When someone working against you knows so much more it's maybe relatively easy to nudge you in directions which, while consistent with what you've seen, ultimately fit into a plot that serves them more than you. They see the forest, and all the while you're thinking that you're in control because you've got such a good view of a tree a ways down the path.

[Morningtide she/her]

I had never noticed that! It's really cool. She's probably drawing using some kind of connection thread, but I can't think of how. Maybe it has to do with

RoW and Stormlight 5 prologue 

Spoiler

her connection to Chana and/or having bonded 2 spren. Maybe she can see whatever is happening where Testament is in Shadesmar? That doesn't make sense though. 

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Morningtide
Quote box, not Spoiler

[+Child of Hodor]

On 4/13/2022 at 2:10 PM, teknopathetic said:

I find it interesting that Shallan can almost "watch" what is happening to people from a distance. Shallan shares a surge with Truthwatchers, so is it possible that regular truthwatchers can do something similar but to a stronger extent? 

That's my guess too. They could see things happening elsewhere mostly present or past, otherwise it's not Truth.  I think some occasionally saw the future, which is why they were so secretive about what they could do.  

Quote

"Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this."

30-20

a particularly small emerald https://coppermind.net/wiki/Oathbringer/Epigraphs

The alternate explanation is Sja-Anat could have corrupted the radiant spren, but I don't think she could back when Honor was still alive and Mishram was free. No support for this just my guess. I think Radiants were afraid of her back in the day because she could corrupt the secondary armor spren. 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Child of Hodor said:

That's my guess too. They could see things happening elsewhere mostly present or past, otherwise it's not Truth.  I think some occasionally saw the future, which is why they were so secretive about what they could do.  

The alternate explanation is Sja-Anat could have corrupted the radiant spren, but I don't think she could back when Honor was still alive and Mishram was free. No support for this just my guess. I think Radiants were afraid of her back in the day because she could corrupt the secondary armor spren. 

Renarin is the first of his kind

Spoiler

Wyndlerunner

So Renarin is not a normal Truthwatcher, whether you want to call him Corrupted or Enlightened. Is he the first Truthwatcher of this kind to have existed?

Brandon Sanderson

What an excellent question. Yes he is.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

[Elegy he/him]

A relevant WOB about Connection and "coincidences" like this:

Quote

Kalanit Taub

When Jasnah picks up the bead for the palace, is that the same bead that Shallan picks up in Oathbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Kalanit Taub

Is that a coincidence or is there something else...?

Brandon Sanderson

So, whenever things like that happen you can assume there's little bits of Connection going on that's changing the probability a little bit. You're not meant to read much into it, but the probability is increased because of thing like that.

And you'll find, if you look really closely, there are connections between the characters that are really subtle that I'm doing, that anyone who's touching the Spiritual Realm or thing like that. For instance, in the second book, Syl turns into Shallan while Shallan is washed up on the beach while Syl is talking to Kaladin somewhere else. There's enough Connection going on that you see Syl change shapes, and Kal's like, "It looks like she's walking on a beach!"

It's just Syl... because through all of that, is turning into... You'll find things like that <happening> all through the books, really subtle, really small. There's just meant to be, one of the things in the Cosmere is Connection. Your Connection to people, Connection to things, places, influences probability a little bit.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

[Returned he/him]

14 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Quote

"Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this."

30-20

a particularly small emerald https://coppermind.net/wiki/Oathbringer/Epigraphs

The alternate explanation is Sja-Anat could have corrupted the radiant spren, but I don't think she could back when Honor was still alive and Mishram was free. No support for this just my guess. I think Radiants were afraid of her back in the day because she could corrupt the secondary armor spren. 

It's also possible that whoever (possibly not even a Truthwatcher) left that record foresaw events through more mundane means, like logical deduction. But we know so little about Truthwatchers, it definitely could be possible that they saw the future at least sometimes.

[Treamayne]

On 4/14/2022 at 4:12 PM, Elegy said:

A relevant WOB about Connection and "coincidences" like this:

 

Spoiler

 

Brandon Sanderson

So, whenever things like that happen you can assume there's little bits of Connection going on that's changing the probability a little bit. You're not meant to read much into it, but the probability is increased because of thing like that.

And you'll find, if you look really closely, there are connections between the characters that are really subtle that I'm doing, that anyone who's touching the Spiritual Realm or thing like that. For instance, in the second book, Syl turns into Shallan while Shallan is washed up on the beach while Syl is talking to Kaladin somewhere else. There's enough Connection going on that you see Syl change shapes, and Kal's like, "It looks like she's walking on a beach!"

It's just Syl... because through all of that, is turning into... You'll find things like that <happening> all through the books, really subtle, really small. There's just meant to be, one of the things in the Cosmere is Connection. Your Connection to people, Connection to things, places, influences probability a little bit.

 

 

For those of you who may read the series, this reminds me of Cold Days (Dresden Files 14)

Spoiler

When they are planning to attack Demonreach, and because of the nature of the attack it ripples into the "past" causing the effects Harry sees early in the book that indicate teh attack is coming (and the scene where Demonreach explains to Bob so he can translate to Harry is still one of the best in that book).

So, it seems like if a strong Connection will form, then ripples of that can be seen before it occurs; because the SR is time/space agnostic.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Guest]

@Treamayne that's a very good point. Maybe Shallan has a future echo of her connection to Shalash from her being a Knight Radiant of Shalash's order near her for a year and still has that connection to Yalb from their time on the same ship.