Thanatos Posted March 30, 2022 Posted March 30, 2022 Frustration, Your not understanding my posts. Future sight branches are... Quote Uncle Andy's Cosmere architect plans he rejected. Because Uncle Andy thought it, it still exists as a, say watermark underlying the Cosmere he chose to be. Understand the Beyond wont be explained. Doesnt mean we cant theories it.
EmulatonStromenkiin he/him Posted March 30, 2022 Posted March 30, 2022 33 minutes ago, Thanatos said: Frustration, Your not understanding my posts. Future sight branches are... Understand the Beyond wont be explained. Doesnt mean we cant theories it. so the entire argument is just a way to waste time?
Frustration Posted March 30, 2022 Posted March 30, 2022 5 minutes ago, Thanatos said: Frustration, Your not understanding my posts. Future sight branches are... Adonalsium was not all powerful, he can't make decisions for other beings.
Returned he/him Posted March 30, 2022 Posted March 30, 2022 11 hours ago, Thanatos said: Returned, Agree, thats why i think there is no free will. The SR is past present and future all in one all at the same time. Its set in stone so to speak. My interpretation of differing futures are merely Uncle Andy's Cosmere architect plans he rejected. Because Uncle Andy thought it, it still exists as a, say watermark underlying the Cosmere he chose to be. Aka this Cosmere that we and the characters experience. If that makes sense. ... Edit. And remember Uncle Andy IS the Cosmere, he chose how he wanted to be/evolve. And if Uncle Andy is a Shard of the universal God, It chose how Uncle Andy would be. And if the universal God exists, i believe its The Beyond, who shattered to become many, to experience. As per the coppermind... As all who die is 'pulled' into The Beyond. Mic drop. I'm not sure that the arguments I laid out suggest that there isn't free will in the Cosmere... that's certainly contrary to my intent. Reliable predictability doesn't automatically imply a lack of free will. To be clear, a lack of free will would also explain reliable predictability, but it isn't necessarily the only thing that would. As of now we've only seen perfectly accurate predictions over a very, very short period of time; specifically, through Allomantically burning atium. If the future is unalterably written then necessarily whatever happens was fated to happen. But the reverse perspective, that one sequence of events happened when others were possible, isn't evidence that that sequence was predestined or guaranteed. It's not that I'm saying that Cosmere fatalism is definitely wrong, but rather that evidence for that conclusion is thin. Since the only figures we've seen try to see the farther future have had their plans not go as well as they'd probably have liked, and we know that visions of the future are subject to interference, I think the evidence for free will is stronger than the opposite. If the truth is that it's all predestined then obviously that's true regardless of the evidence we've seen, but the case I see you presenting looks tautological to me. Again, not necessarily wrong, but to me unpersuasive. I suppose we'll learn a lot more as more books are released!
Wandering Shade Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 On 3/30/2022 at 6:09 PM, Returned said: As of now we've only seen perfectly accurate predictions over a very, very short period of time; specifically, through Allomantically burning atium. And even this has been proven to not be 100% accurate with the end of Well of Ascension and Vin defeating Zane. Granted, she only managed that by using his own future sight against him, but still. Atium showed Zane Vin attacking one way and she attacked a different way. Future Sight, even really accurate short term future sight such as Atium, is not perfect. Free will, while predictable with Future Sight and pure logic (The Diagram), exists and proves Future Sight wrong on multiple occasions.
EmulatonStromenkiin he/him Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 1 minute ago, Wandering Shade said: And even this has been proven to not be 100% accurate with the end of Well of Ascension and Vin defeating Zane. Granted, she only managed that by using his own future sight against him, but still. Atium showed Zane Vin attacking one way and she attacked a different way. Future Sight, even really accurate short term future sight such as Atium, is not perfect. Free will, while predictable with Future Sight and pure logic (The Diagram), exists and proves Future Sight wrong on multiple occasions. strictly speaking, her atium shadow split in two, but he was always going to block the wrong one because of her intentions.
Wandering Shade Posted April 14, 2022 Posted April 14, 2022 1 minute ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said: strictly speaking, her atium shadow split in two, but he was always going to block the wrong one because of her intentions. Not because of her intentions, I would say. More because he just doesn't have the reaction speed to alter his block to defend the second atium shadow. Which is fair, only a Steel or Zinc Compounder (I think its Zinc which does mental speed...) would have that kind of reaction time.
Lego Mistborn he/him Posted April 16, 2022 Posted April 16, 2022 If free will is an "illusion" it is still free will because we cannot see the future. Future sight is not actually seeing the future, but seeing all of the possible predictions that can be made. Even if we are forced to make our own decisions, we can't trace how we are being forced, so we are still making the decisions. I hope this makes sense, basically, free will is free will, even if it isn't.
Duxredux he/him Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 Hopefully 2 months doesn't count as necro-ing a thread. We take some of the structure around future sight and precognition in fiction for granted perhaps, but there's characteristics around Cosmere future sight that I think should not be overlooked. First, many cases of future sight we see is relevant. Without much practice and sometimes without any voluntary action at all, extremely important information is gleaned from future sight. Renarin's vision of Dalinar and his own death was very, very close to accurate. Kelsier was able to identify on the second look into the Spiritual Realm that he could never defeat Ruin. That does not have to be the case, but it seems to be for the Cosmere. Second, it seems as if future sight is almost always focused on people. The Prophecy of the Hero of Ages. Renarin's vision of Odium's champion. Atium enhances the mind to be able to process the additional information. Lightsong's visions of Llarimar, Blushweaver, Susebron, and a coming war. Returned coming back for a purpose: Blushweaver and Lightsong to stop the war, Calmseer to heal her daughter. Cultivation's longshots with Dalinar and Taravangian's boons. The death rattles given through Moelach. It could be that those are the only things that people write home about, but that is way too much future sight around people to be coincidental. The biggest exception was the Everstorm which was definitely summoned intentionally. Where do we see future sight fail or not happen as predicted? Zane falling to Vin as he himself is reacting to something that has not yet happened yet. Lightsong saw Hallendren destroyed in a second Manywar. In this case he was given the choice to try to prevent it. Renarin's vision of his own death and Dalinar's corruption (at least, neither has happened yet). He may have influenced his own death by looking at Jasnah and nodding for her to kill him. Cultivation probably didn't guess that Taravangian was going to have the attitude we see him with (or she didn't try to see further than Rayse's death), unless she is playing a much longer game than it looks. Oh, and the odd duck, Aluminum does not create Atium shadows. I'm not going to touch this one yet. Notably, future sight visions seem to be related to major decision points. We think Kaladin's Oaths are death rattles, Lightsong choosing to heal Susebron, Sazed thinking about the detail of the prophecy before Ascending, Jasnah about to kill Renarin, and Dalinar resisting Rayse. This could be just a writerly reason, but I think it's more than that. Atium usually doesn't give enough information to change what someone else will do, unless you're Vin. At any rate, I wonder if future sight, by touching the Spiritual Realm, helps you glean insight related to people Connected to you, or perhaps in the case of Atium, Connections to you based proximity and Intent. This insight is similar to if you know your buddy well enough to predict their order at a restaurant, and depending on if you mention what they will order if they will spite you or not. As for if free will is lost, honestly I can't see Brandon ever canonizing that, and I don't think it is an aspect of the Cosmere. It undermines so much of the concept of people being able to change, redeem themselves, or start anew. I don't think he would ever want to canonize that someone was always going to be a murderer and never had another alternative.
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