Pathfinder Posted March 4, 2022 Posted March 4, 2022 1 minute ago, Nameless said: I... what? It's a picture. How can I have a subjective opinion about a picture? The top left suit of Plate is more rounded, but there is still a line in the middle. Starting in the top left corner of the chestplate, there's a line that runs to the middle, then turns straight down. And half the chestplate is shaded, following a line. And even if it was rounded, a human chest is not rounded like that. As I said, I am not going to argue with you. Ain't going down that rabbit hole. I made my points. I disagree. I wish you luck with your opinion. I am not being snarky or sarcastic. I just see no reason to continue.
NameIess Posted March 4, 2022 Posted March 4, 2022 7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: As I said, I am not going to argue with you. Ain't going down that rabbit hole. I made my points. I disagree. I wish you luck with your opinion. I am not being snarky or sarcastic. I just see no reason to continue. Why don't you want to continue? Do you think I won't change my mind? Because we argued one time without either of us agreeing to the other's points? 1
Frustration Posted March 4, 2022 Author Posted March 4, 2022 2 hours ago, Nameless said: Could you get me the quote on that? Anyways, I took that scene to mean not that the Plate can turn invisible, but that it can become intangible. It can stay in the form of Plate while dismissed, ready to be resummoned instantly. It would appear my source has run out on me. I'll keep looking, but it will take time.
ScavellTane Posted March 5, 2022 Posted March 5, 2022 (edited) From what I can tell, dead Shardplate has no Cognitive representation. So I would assume it resides 'entirely' in the PR. That could account for the weight difference. Edited March 5, 2022 by ScavellTane 2
Bort he/him Posted March 7, 2022 Posted March 7, 2022 On 3/4/2022 at 8:24 PM, Frustration said: Becasue it's not their skin but their soul that changes. Their skin isn't supposed to allow gasses out, but humans are flawed container so it does, as they progress they become better at holding it, so it leaks less. However your respiratory system is supposed to allow gasses out, and so it does no matter your oath level. If it's their soul which determines how effectively they can hold onto Stormlight... Why would the mouth being open have ANY effect at all?
Frustration Posted March 7, 2022 Author Posted March 7, 2022 4 hours ago, Bort said: If it's their soul which determines how effectively they can hold onto Stormlight... Why would the mouth being open have ANY effect at all? Becasue the purpose of breathing is to allow gas exchange. Skin leaking stormlight is a flaw in the container, breathing releasing stormlight is a natural function.
Anomander Rake he/him Posted March 7, 2022 Posted March 7, 2022 On 3/5/2022 at 10:32 AM, ScavellTane said: From what I can tell, dead Shardplate has no Cognitive representation. So I would assume it resides 'entirely' in the PR. That could account for the weight difference. having no Cognitive representation makes sense. Like Shardblades, the plate IS the spren - they should either be in the Physical as plate, or the Cognitive as spren, no in between
Bort he/him Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 18 hours ago, Frustration said: Becasue the purpose of breathing is to allow gas exchange. Skin leaking stormlight is a flaw in the container, breathing releasing stormlight is a natural function. But when holding stormlight, they don't need to breathe. Also, that doesn't answer the question. If it's their soul which determines how well they hold onto stormlight, what does an open mouth have to do with it? Surely, if it's down to the soul, then they'd need to have an open soul to leak stormlight? The open mouth should mean nothing, if it's all down to their soul.
Frustration Posted March 8, 2022 Author Posted March 8, 2022 4 hours ago, Bort said: But when holding stormlight, they don't need to breathe. Also, that doesn't answer the question. If it's their soul which determines how well they hold onto stormlight, what does an open mouth have to do with it? Surely, if it's down to the soul, then they'd need to have an open soul to leak stormlight? The open mouth should mean nothing, if it's all down to their soul. If a submarine allows air out through the hull it is a bad submarine. If a submarine allows air out through the hatch it's doing it's job.
NameIess Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 6 minutes ago, Frustration said: If a submarine allows air out through the hull it is a bad submarine. If a submarine allows air out through the hatch it's doing it's job. If there isn't any pressure, the air in the submarine won't rush out through the hatch. Stormlight's in the blood, not the lungs, and when there's not a ton of it left, it won't push out into the lungs. 1
Frustration Posted March 8, 2022 Author Posted March 8, 2022 Just now, Nameless said: If there isn't any pressure, the air in the submarine won't rush out through the hatch. Stormlight's in the blood, not the lungs, and when there's not a ton of it left, it won't push out into the lungs. What makes you say it's in the blood?
NameIess Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 Just now, Frustration said: What makes you say it's in the blood? All the times people describe it as being in their blood.
Frustration Posted March 8, 2022 Author Posted March 8, 2022 20 minutes ago, Nameless said: All the times people describe it as being in their blood. Alright now let's make a comparison to the respitory system, you inhale air, it goes into your lungs, into you blood, and is distributed throughout your body until it is returned to your lungs and released. Why does stormlight follow all but the last step?
NameIess Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 Just now, Frustration said: Alright now let's make a comparison to the respitory system, you inhale air, it goes into your lungs, into you blood, and is distributed throughout your body until it is returned to your lungs and released. Why does stormlight follow all but the last step? Because it stays in your bloodstream until it is used up, just like oxygen does.
Frustration Posted March 8, 2022 Author Posted March 8, 2022 10 minutes ago, Nameless said: Because it stays in your bloodstream until it is used up, just like oxygen does. No you exhale any oxygen not used, which is much less than what you inhale but the oxygen does not stay in your blood and make a second pass.
NameIess Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 Just now, Frustration said: No you exhale any oxygen not used, which is much less than what you inhale but the oxygen does not stay in your blood and make a second pass. No, you exhale any oxygen not absorbed by your blood. The oxygen that is absorbed by your blood is turned into carbon dioxide which is put into your lungs to be expelled. 1
The Isochronism he/him Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 This was a super well put together argument. I completely agree.
Bort he/him Posted March 9, 2022 Posted March 9, 2022 19 hours ago, Frustration said: If a submarine allows air out through the hull it is a bad submarine. If a submarine allows air out through the hatch it's doing it's job. I'm sorry, but this has nothing at all to do with anything being said. Submarines don't have souls, nor can they magically infuse themselves with stormlight. So, perhaps you could answer the question put to you, namely, if stormlight absorption is all about the soul, as you previously claimed, then what difference does an open mouth make? I mean, your soul doesn't need to breathe, so why would stormlight be expelled when breathing, if it's attached to your soul? Come on Frustration, let's have some proper answers here, not just more meaningless nonsense like your submarine line.
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted March 9, 2022 Posted March 9, 2022 @Frustration and @Nameless I think you may be talking partially past each other on this. I think Frustration is talking about the oxygen you inhale that isn't absorbed into your bloodstream (as not all oxygen diffuses across the membrane of the alveoli) and so when you breath out immediately after breathing in some of the oxygen in the air you inhaled is exhaled without entering into the bloodstream, just as some of the carbon dioxide in the vessels around the alveoli remains in the body rather than leaving. I think Nameless is getting at the point that, when you breath in, any oxygen that is absorbed by the blood remains in the body until it is used, and so any oxygen in the bloodstream will remain within you and not leave when you breath out. Not all the oxygen you breath in enters your bloodstream (Frustration's argument), but any oxygen that is absorbed doesn't leave until it has been used and combined to form carbon dioxide (Nameless's argument). @Frustration and @Bort I think Frustration's argument is that, to the soul of the person, Stormlight is like air, and is treated like a type of super air by the person's soul. Air, by design, only enters and leaves your body through our mouth and nose, rather than through the skin, and so Stormlight and the soul both see an open mouth or nose - or exhaling through the mouth or nose - as being legitimate ways of leaving the body, where as the skin is simply because the container isn't fully suited to hold that substance. Because magic - and magic associated strongly with how people perceive things, both consciously and unconsciously - is involved, when someone breaths in Stormlight they are in effect breathing in a gas, and the soul treats it as if it were a gas.
Bort he/him Posted March 9, 2022 Posted March 9, 2022 7 minutes ago, Ixthos said: @Frustration and @Bort I think Frustration's argument is that, to the soul of the person, Stormlight is like air, and is treated like a type of super air by the person's soul. Air, by design, only enters and leaves your body through our mouth and nose, rather than through the skin, and so Stormlight and the soul both see an open mouth or nose - or exhaling through the mouth or nose - as being legitimate ways of leaving the body, where as the skin is simply because the container isn't fully suited to hold that substance. Because magic - and magic associated strongly with how people perceive things, both consciously and unconsciously - is involved, when someone breaths in Stormlight they are in effect breathing in a gas, and the soul treats it as if it were a gas. Perhaps Frustration should explain that then, instead of coming out with meaningless lines which have nothing to do with the conversation at hand.
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted March 9, 2022 Posted March 9, 2022 Just now, Bort said: Perhaps Frustration should explain that then, instead of coming out with meaningless lines which have nothing to do with the conversation at hand. Perhaps, and hopefully he can confirm whether or not my understanding of his argument is his intention, though its important to remember that a lot of people have somewhat different perspectives on things and what is and isn't intuitively obvious. I've been in a similar situation to Frustration's where I was trying to explain something to someone but my analogy made no sense to them while to me it was logical - I had to take a step back and reconsider how to present what was in my own mind in a manner that made sense to the other person. I think Frustration was trying to use the submarine analogy to illustrate how gases behave and a situation where gases entering and exiting one way is beneficial and accounted for and even expected, but another way is a design flaw, and working on the assumption that in the Spiritual and Cognitive Realm Stormlight is treated as a gas, but that wasn't sufficiently illustrated to be clear to everyone - Stormlight being seen by souls as a gas and so being treated as such was likely his starting assumption, but that wasn't made fully clear. Online discussions can become frustrating, but it is important to remember the other person - either way I hope, if my assessment is accurate, this puts you and @Frustration and @Nameless on the same page, and hopefully the conversation can continue from this point with a common frame of reference. I hope my analogy helped. 3
Bort he/him Posted March 9, 2022 Posted March 9, 2022 Different perspectives are all well and good, however not explaining those perspectives when you're trying to make a point really doesn't help your arguments. Like when you are asked a question about why an open mouth has anything to do with stormlight attaching itself to your soul, and you respond with some nonsense about submarines. If Frustration had bothered to explain his argument in more detail, then it would have made sense, instead of just being nonsense. That said, his reply still would make little sense if he's saying it's down to the soul to hold onto stormlight, but the body is leaking it.
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted March 9, 2022 Posted March 9, 2022 6 minutes ago, Bort said: Different perspectives are all well and good, however not explaining those perspectives when you're trying to make a point really doesn't help your arguments. Like when you are asked a question about why an open mouth has anything to do with stormlight attaching itself to your soul, and you respond with some nonsense about submarines. If Frustration had bothered to explain his argument in more detail, then it would have made sense, instead of just being nonsense. That said, his reply still would make little sense if he's saying it's down to the soul to hold onto stormlight, but the body is leaking it. I'm not entirely sure I should get involved further in this argument, but if I can further this particular line for the moment, Stormlight, as Investiture, spans all three realms and interacts with, or can be made to interact with, all three. Just as Navani's intention allowed her to cause the song of Voidlight to become the song of anti-Voidlight - which is a physical alteration of the waveform to produce one that cancels out the peaks and troughs of the song of Voidlight - so to can invested things interact with and be affected by perception. We know spren respond to being measured and the starspren in Shadesmar Adolin and Shallan saw knew it was being observed. Stormlight is a physical manifestation of Investiture, and it both interacts with physical objects like Knights and gems, but also interacts with their souls, such as motivating them to move and to act, and Voidlight inducing emotions, assuming properties of one light are shared with others such that things that can affect one or be affected by one can also affect or be affected by the other. In this context, Stormlight likely also thinks of itself like a gas, as shown by Navani and Raboniel's experiments, where Stormlight and Voidlight displayed both gaseous and light-like traits. As a gas, and seen by the body as a substitute for air, means both Stormlight and the individual in question both affect how it behaves, also taking into account how Stormlight can be transformed into manifestations of the surges. Either way, in this context it is the combination of Stormlight's own self-perception (as objects in the cosmere have self perception in the Cognitive Realm, as seen by the swords that somehow felt they hadn't fulfilled their function when Shallan touched them, and the items which felt like dust was a part of them) interacting with the perception of the Knights, who physically have to breath the Stormlight in, that makes Stormlight behave like super air for the Knight, and so something that should only enter or leave through the mouth or nose, and anything else is due to flaws in the capacity of the body to contain it, imperfections letting it leak just like how a bottle with a small hole in it will let the water out even though the bottle was designed to only let the water in or out through the opening.
Bort he/him Posted March 9, 2022 Posted March 9, 2022 That all makes sense, and is a pretty good explanation of why a body leaks stormlight. It is missing, however, all the times stormlight acts like a liquid. But, in the context of body leaking, it might not be so relevant. Now we just need Frustration to explain what he was going on about with the soul thing.
NameIess Posted March 9, 2022 Posted March 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Bort said: Different perspectives are all well and good, however not explaining those perspectives when you're trying to make a point really doesn't help your arguments. Like when you are asked a question about why an open mouth has anything to do with stormlight attaching itself to your soul, and you respond with some nonsense about submarines. If Frustration had bothered to explain his argument in more detail, then it would have made sense, instead of just being nonsense. That said, his reply still would make little sense if he's saying it's down to the soul to hold onto stormlight, but the body is leaking it. I understood Frustration's argument. 48 minutes ago, Ixthos said: I'm not entirely sure I should get involved further in this argument, but if I can further this particular line for the moment, Stormlight, as Investiture, spans all three realms and interacts with, or can be made to interact with, all three. Just as Navani's intention allowed her to cause the song of Voidlight to become the song of anti-Voidlight - which is a physical alteration of the waveform to produce one that cancels out the peaks and troughs of the song of Voidlight - so to can invested things interact with and be affected by perception. We know spren respond to being measured and the starspren in Shadesmar Adolin and Shallan saw knew it was being observed. Stormlight is a physical manifestation of Investiture, and it both interacts with physical objects like Knights and gems, but also interacts with their souls, such as motivating them to move and to act, and Voidlight inducing emotions, assuming properties of one light are shared with others such that things that can affect one or be affected by one can also affect or be affected by the other. In this context, Stormlight likely also thinks of itself like a gas, as shown by Navani and Raboniel's experiments, where Stormlight and Voidlight displayed both gaseous and light-like traits. As a gas, and seen by the body as a substitute for air, means both Stormlight and the individual in question both affect how it behaves, also taking into account how Stormlight can be transformed into manifestations of the surges. Either way, in this context it is the combination of Stormlight's own self-perception (as objects in the cosmere have self perception in the Cognitive Realm, as seen by the swords that somehow felt they hadn't fulfilled their function when Shallan touched them, and the items which felt like dust was a part of them) interacting with the perception of the Knights, who physically have to breath the Stormlight in, that makes Stormlight behave like super air for the Knight, and so something that should only enter or leave through the mouth or nose, and anything else is due to flaws in the capacity of the body to contain it, imperfections letting it leak just like how a bottle with a small hole in it will let the water out even though the bottle was designed to only let the water in or out through the opening. I don't think Stormlight is seen as a replacement for air by the body. The healing just happens to make oxygen or "heal" your cells by making ATP. I think Stormlight works via pressure. When you inhale stormlight, it goes into your blood. However, the more stormlight you have, the more pressure it is under. Since Radiants are an imperfect container, the stormlight leaks out. Some of it goes out through the skin, but much more of it gets pushed down the path of least resistance, out into the lungs and through the mouth. Now, once you run low on stormlight, there's less pressure, meaning most of it remains in your bloodstream, meaning you can talk without losing tons of stormlight. As you increase your oaths, your spiritual aspect becomes better at holding investiture, so you leak less. Or maybe you increase your spiritual aspect's affinity with investiture, which decreases the pressure. Now, what said about breathing being the way to expel stormlight, meaning it is unchanged by oath, is accurate. When the Radiant is trying to expel stormlight. When Kaladin was getting a tattoo, he purposefully expelled the stormlight from himself. Regardless of oath, radiants will be able to expel stormlight at the same speed. Higher oaths might even be able to do it faster.
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