We've underestimated Shardplate.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Anomander Rake said:

Magic aside, lets compare medieval plate armor to shardplate.  Medieval plate was usually 2-3mm thick, and would sometimes weigh upwards of 60 lbs, though shardplate is probably more similar to jousting armor, which was far heavier as the wearer didnt really need to move, so we can say ~120 lbs (those poor horses, yikes, on top of their own jousting armor).  Rosharans are big, really big, so we'll be generous and scale up by a third.  The Rosharan equivalent plate armor would weigh around ~160 lbs.  Maybe some particularly and broad shouldered shardbearers had their plate grow larger for them nearing something that would in theory weigh 200 lbs

Coppermind has dead plate at 1400 lbs.  1400!!!  Unless the investiture infusing the armor is adding real, gravity affected mass, I can't see it being anything but the mass of the armor by way of it being much thicker in places.

Shardblades weigh less than steel would of the same size, I see no reason Shardplate can't be the opposite.

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

I don't see why you wouldn't leak less when you're breathing when you leak less normally too.

Let's use the wineskin example that is used in the books, a human is like a wineskin with a hole in it, wine/light leaks out very quickly, the higher the oath level the less light leaks. However breathing is like opening the mouth of the wineskin and turning it upside down, no matter how small the hole in the bottom is, the mouth is the same size.

Alternatively, your mouth/nostrils are much bigger than your pores, they are the main way your body releases gas, just as carbon dioxide is released when you breathe light is too. However unlike with regualr gases, Humans are not built to hold stormlight, so it will leak through their skin. By saying oaths humans become more attuned to hold stormlight, so their skin leaks less, however their respirory system will still expell gas just the same.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Frustration

[Pathfinder]

Actually just recalled something that would support shardplate being heavier/denser than would be expected. When Brandon got advice from Shad, they discussed oversized swords (like clouds for instance). What was revealed is it doesnt matter how strong you are, the offset of weight of the oversized sword would tip you over. Unless of course you were heavier to balance it. So shardblades might be lighter by design for wielding, and shardplate heavier so the user doesn't tip over like a teapot everytime they swing.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Pathfinder

[Anomander Rake he/him]

48 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Not responding to back either side of the argument or anything. Just commenting specifically on where the extra weight could be coming in. 

Medieval Plate armor usually are pieces that are tied together that mostly covers the individual. There are still multiple locations and gaps due to the user needing to be able to move. For shardplate, all those places are fully covered with interlocking or overlapping scales. So no exposed seams. I could see the additional coverage adding weight. 

Hence my comment about jousting armor!  A foot soldier or even mounted knight would wear armor like the kind you mentioned and pictured, with gaps behind the knee, at the elbow, loose pauldrons at the shoulder, basically everywhere you need to move to run, jump, fight.  Jousting armor was made differently, for someone whos job it was to sit atop a horse and get slammed by a lance.  It was usually thicker, and certainly far heavier and far harder to move around in, hence better comparison for shardplate than normal steel plate.

*edit* - probably shouldve mentioned the difference more in my first comment lol

Good point on it not being steel tho, I've got nothing for that point.  beats me if i know the proper physical attributes of tanavastiam or koravarium XD

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Shardblades weight less than steel would of the same size, I see no reason Shardplate can't be the opposite.

Shardblades weigh very little, less than a normal to a degree that people comment it feels weird to use.  But we know for a fact that shardplate is extremely heavy, heavier than normal armor, so that point is kind of invalid.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Anomander Rake

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Anomander Rake said:

Shardblades weigh very little, less than a normal to a degree that people comment it feels weird to use.  But we know for a fact that shardplate is extremely heavy, heavier than normal armor, so that point is kind of invalid.

You just repeated my point.

Shadblade - Lighter

Shardplate - Heavier

[NameIess]

32 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Let's use the wineskin example that is used in the books, a human is like a wineskin with a hole in it, wine/light leaks out very quickly, the higher the oath level the less light leaks. However breathing is like opening the mouth of the wineskin and turning it upside down, no matter how small the hole in the bottom is, the mouth is the same size.

Have you ever tried to get a bottle completely empty of all water? There's always a few drops left, even after turning it upside down.

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Alternatively, your mouth/nostrils are much bigger than your pores, they are the main way your body releases gas, just as carbon dioxide is released when you breathe light is too. However unlike with regualr gases, Humans are not built to hold stormlight, so it will leak through their skin. By saying oaths humans become more attuned to hold stormlight, so their skin leaks less, however their respirory system will still expell gas just the same.

But if their skin pores stay the same size yet leak less Stormlight, why would the mouth be any different?

[Anomander Rake he/him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

You just repeated my point.

mb lol, juggling a lot at work today and responding between.  Fair, yeah.  I feel though that unless the added weight was a concession for all the added power and endurance Plate lent you, there would be no reason for it to be so heavy.  Maybe dead plate lost its ability to self maintain and is stuck heavy now, weighed down by that investiture-mass or something.

I also see the armor just being thicker as equally likely tbh.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Have you ever tried to get a bottle completely empty of all water? There's always a few drops left, even after turning it upside down.

Even gemstones which hold stormlight far better than humans will run out.

And Jasnah was exhausted, so there was plenty to heal.

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

But if their skin pores stay the same size yet leak less Stormlight, why would the mouth be any different?

Becasue it's not their skin but their soul that changes. Their skin isn't supposed to allow gasses out, but humans are flawed container so it does, as they progress they become better at holding it, so it leaks less. However your respiratory system is supposed to allow gasses out, and so it does no matter your oath level.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Even gemstones which hold stormlight far better than humans will run out.

And Jasnah was exhausted, so there was plenty to heal

Healing slows down with less Stormlight, or even almost entirely stops.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Becasue it's not their skin but their soul that changes. Their skin isn't supposed to allow gasses out, but humans are flawed container so it does, as they progress they become better at holding it, so it leaks less. However your respiratory system is supposed to allow gasses out, and so it does no matter your oath level.

Yeah? Well Kaladin had to forcibly expel the Stormlight from his system. He was talking normally with Stormlight in him, and yet it stayed with him until he intentionally got rid of it.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Healing slows down with less Stormlight, or even almost entirely stops.

Because the stormlight is expended.

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Yeah? Well Kaladin had to forcibly expel the Stormlight from his system. He was talking normally with Stormlight in him, and yet it stayed with him until he intentionally got rid of it.

Can I get the quotes for that?

[Pathfinder]

32 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

Hence my comment about jousting armor!  A foot soldier or even mounted knight would wear armor like the kind you mentioned and pictured, with gaps behind the knee, at the elbow, loose pauldrons at the shoulder, basically everywhere you need to move to run, jump, fight.  Jousting armor was made differently, for someone whos job it was to sit atop a horse and get slammed by a lance.  It was usually thicker, and certainly far heavier and far harder to move around in, hence better comparison for shardplate than normal steel plate.

*edit* - probably shouldve mentioned the difference more in my first comment lol

Good point on it not being steel tho, I've got nothing for that point.  beats me if i know the proper physical attributes of tanavastiam or koravarium XD

Shardblades weigh very little, less than a normal to a degree that people comment it feels weird to use.  But we know for a fact that shardplate is extremely heavy, heavier than normal armor, so that point is kind of invalid.

 

22 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

mb lol, juggling a lot at work today and responding between.  Fair, yeah.  I feel though that unless the added weight was a concession for all the added power and endurance Plate lent you, there would be no reason for it to be so heavy.  Maybe dead plate lost its ability to self maintain and is stuck heavy now, weighed down by that investiture-mass or something.

I also see the armor just being thicker as equally likely tbh.

What I am thinking is it is not so much thicker, as denser. And I mentioned in another post, I think the added weight may be on purpose so that when they swing the sword, they don't go flying. A lot of the stances we see for sword fighting have to deal with keeping your feet wide, and sturdily planted. 

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Because the stormlight is expended.

I think it's more that it stops healing little things as much. If you're running out of stormlight you have to start breathing again, for example.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Can I get the quotes for that?

In chapter 2 of WoR, Kaladin is talking to the bridgemen normally as they get tattoos. Kaladin sits down to get a tattoo, and this happens:

Quote

After a short time, the tattooist started cursing under her breath. Kaladin opened his eyes as she wiped a rag on his forehead. "What is it?" he asked. "The ink won't take!" she said. "I've never seen anything like it. When I wipe your forehead, the ink all comes right off! The tattoo won't stay." Kaladin sighed, realizing he had a little Stormlight in his veins. (WoR ch. 2 P. 58)

Then the thing I quoted earlier happens, and then Kaladin banishes the light on purpose:

Quote

He banished it, hoping the tattoo artist didn't notice when he breathed out a small cloud of glowing smoke. (WoR ch. 2 P. 59)

Also, Your size thing is totally off. Shardbearers are always described as massive and looming. This isn't real-life armor that has to be carried by normal people. This is fantasy power armor that lets you crush steel in your bare hands and immobilizes when it runs out of power. a couple millimeters thick is not consistent with the art in the books themselves either. Look at the shardbearer art in WoR and tell me that it would be in any way possible for someone to not notice that plate when being hugged.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Also, Your size thing is totally off. Shardbearers are always described as massive and looming. This isn't real-life armor that has to be carried by normal people. This is fantasy power armor that lets you crush steel in your bare hands and immobilizes when it runs out of power. a couple millimeters thick is not consistent with the art in the books themselves either. Look at the shardbearer art in WoR and tell me that it would be in any way possible for someone to not notice that plate when being hugged.

Each set of plate is as different as blades. And Radiants have shown the ability to change their plate.

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Also, Your size thing is totally off. Shardbearers are always described as massive and looming. This isn't real-life armor that has to be carried by normal people. This is fantasy power armor that lets you crush steel in your bare hands and immobilizes when it runs out of power. a couple millimeters thick is not consistent with the art in the books themselves either. Look at the shardbearer art in WoR and tell me that it would be in any way possible for someone to not notice that plate when being hugged.

The artwork does not make it as massive as you make it out to be. You even see Adolin's face for size reference. 

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Each set of plate is as different as blades. And Radiants have shown the ability to change their plate.

All Plate is massive.

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

The artwork does not make it as massive as you make it out to be. You even see Adolin's face for size reference. 

Would it be in any way possible to hug someone wearing that and not be able to feel the plate? That chestplate sticks out a couple inches off their chest. So either Kaladin got himself form-fitting Shardplate with no pieces that jut out oddly on his arms or chest, or the armor simply went intangible.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

All Plate is massive.

All dead Shardblades are ~7 foot long swords.

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Would it be in any way possible to hug someone wearing that and not be able to feel the plate? That chestplate sticks out a couple inches off their chest. So either Kaladin got himself form-fitting Shardplate with no pieces that jut out oddly on his arms or chest, or the armor simply went intangible.

Or just changed it to be form fitting.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Or just changed it to be form fitting.

Which totally makes sense for him to do. Instead of just dismissing his plate, why not take the time and effort to shrink it down to be completely form fitting, which would require a complete resize of basically every single piece. And also, you have to do it before catching Lirin, because he didn't see any of it.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Which totally makes sense for him to do. Instead of just dismissing his plate, why not take the time and effort to shrink it down to be completely form fitting, which would require a complete resize of basically every single piece. And also, you have to do it before catching Lirin, because he didn't see any of it.

Or just have the plate do it. He doesn't have to mentally resize Syl everytime he wants a knife instead of a blade.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Or just have the plate do it. He doesn't have to mentally resize Syl everytime he wants a knife instead of a blade.

Yeah, so much simpler to ask the plate to resize, as opposed to just dismissing it. And besides, it gives him.... what benefit exactly?

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Would it be in any way possible to hug someone wearing that and not be able to feel the plate? That chestplate sticks out a couple inches off their chest. So either Kaladin got himself form-fitting Shardplate with no pieces that jut out oddly on his arms or chest, or the armor simply went intangible.

Totally not arguing with you. I learned my lesson from last time. All I will say in regards to this, is i took the quote to mean that the plate provided tactile sensation in both directions. How Kaladin can feel his father and what he touches, and his father can feel him. But like I said, ain't arguing with you. Made my point. I am good. 

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, so much simpler to ask the plate to resize, as opposed to just dismissing it. And besides, it gives him.... what benefit exactly?

Because he quite clearly did not dismiss it, we see from Jasnah's PoV that when plate is dismissed the spren that form it break up and leave. However Kal still has the outline there so he must still be wearing it.

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

i took the quote to mean that the plate provided tactile sensation in both directions. How Kaladin can feel his father and what he touches, and his father can feel him. But like I said, ain't arguing with you. Made my point. I am good. 

I agree that Living Plate can provide both way tactile senstation, but the differences in shape between a chestplate and a human chest are way too different for that to matter unless the chestplate changes shape dramatically.

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Because he quite clearly did not dismiss it, we see from Jasnah's PoV that when plate is dismissed the spren that form it break up and leave. However Kal still has the outline there so he must still be wearing it.

Could you get me the quote on that? Anyways, I took that scene to mean not that the Plate can turn invisible, but that it can become intangible. It can stay in the form of Plate while dismissed, ready to be resummoned instantly.

[Pathfinder]

Just now, Nameless said:

I agree that Living Plate can provide both way tactile senstation, but the differences in shape between a chestplate and a human chest are way too different for that to matter unless the chestplate changes shape dramatically.

The picture from way of kings that i just posted shows the plate with the chest rounded. Further it would be close to the chest based on the proportions demonstrated by Adolin's face in the helm. I would need to put the image on my ipad to outline the body inside, but the impression given to me, is the person fills it out pretty well. Just because the other one has it slightly pointed doesn't mean they all have this giant triangle sticking out of their chest. 

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

The picture from way of kings that i just posted shows the plate with the chest rounded. Further it would be close to the chest based on the proportions demonstrated by Adolin's face in the helm. I would need to put the image on my ipad to outline the body inside, but the impression given to me, is the person fills it out pretty well. Just because the other one has it slightly pointed doesn't mean they all have this giant triangle sticking out of their chest. 

Both suits of Shardplate in that picture are slightly pointed.

[Pathfinder]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Both suits of Shardplate in that picture are slightly pointed.

You are certainly entitled to see it that way. I do not. Wish you luck with your opinion. 

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

You are certainly entitled to see it that way. I do not. Wish you luck with your opinion. 

I... what? It's a picture. How can I have a subjective opinion about a picture?  The top left suit of Plate is more rounded, but there is still a line in the middle. Starting in the top left corner of the chestplate, there's a line that runs to the middle, then turns straight down. And half the chestplate is shaded, following a line. And even if it was rounded, a human chest is not rounded like that.