theory Classification of Rosharan magic is based on Lights, not Shards

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Good to know, I didn't remember that

No problem.

[mathiau he/him]

20 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

As I've said in the initial post, I think that for some reason full magic systems are only possible with Honor's involvement. That's why we only get Old Magic and Stoneshaping for Lifelight.

You probably already realise it, but that "for some reason" isn't exactly the most convincing argument. Also I still don't see why you insist on Stoneshaping being pure Cultivation

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I don't know why that is the case, my approach was kind of inspired by how particle physics discoveries have been historically made: you list all the elements (in this case powers) and search for the simplest set of rules to explain their behavior. That makes it biased towards excluding new, unseen powers, obviously

While that's fair, there are other just as simple explanations that exists (or simpler depending of who you ask). The "three hybrid magic systems" hypothesis for example

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According to this Coppermind article (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Suppression_fabrial) they are resistant, but I would have to check in the book

The article also mention that Truesprens were push back toward the CR so I'm wondering if the Oathgates were unaffected because

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I pretty much agree, but I wonder about the implications for Voidbinding. Would the NW get other powers from the Sibling? Probably yes. If that is the case, which powers, if any, are Voidbindings? These issues are part of the reasons why I would consider separating Unamde powers, even futuresight, from ten Voidbindings an elegant solution

I don't see a reason to assumed a corrupted NW would give different powers from a corrupted Sibling beyond maybe the light they're able to create

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Possibly, but I still like my analogy to Allomacy and atium better

Could be both though

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

While that's fair, there are other just as simple explanations that exists (or simpler depending of who you ask). The "three hybrid magic systems" hypothesis for example

Except (and yeah, my whole theory kind of depends on that), I haven't seen any convincing (at least for me) theory predicting why there are two H+C magic systems and how Khriss knows that there is one and only one additional set of esoteric powers.

Three hybrid magic systems would require the third magic (fabrials) to be C+O, which contradicts Brandon's words that Odium's influence on Roshar in mostly Voidbinding:

Spoiler

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Questioner

It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of god.

Questioner

Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Questioner

I was wondering how much-

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

 

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Also I still don't see why you insist on Stoneshaping being pure Cultivation

My arguments would be:

A. Cultivation's pure Tone heard by Venli

B. Stone is somehow special on Roshar: it has memory, it's sacred in Shin tradition, the Eila Stele considers it a Singer god. This might point to it being Invested, and Storms are already Invested by Honor, which leaves Cultivation as the most likely candidate

C. Thunderclasts are clearly separate from the Fused, despite both being corrupted Singers. The latter use powers more associated with Honor, so again - Cultivation seems like a good candidate for the former

[Collecter128]

There are also the fish. Which may or may not be magical. 

[cometaryorbit]

21 hours ago, Collecter128 said:

There are also the fish. Which may or may not be magical. 

I think the Purelake fish absolutely are Invested/magical, but they are not part of a magic system in the sense of a full-fledged Invested Art; they're more a "magic in nature" thing. Same for chasmfiend/skyeel weight-lightening spren bonds, gemhearts in Rosharan wildlife in general holding Stormlight, etc.

[Humble_Knight]

On 3/4/2022 at 3:56 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I think the Purelake fish absolutely are Invested/magical, but they are not part of a magic system in the sense of a full-fledged Invested Art; they're more a "magic in nature" thing. Same for chasmfiend/skyeel weight-lightening spren bonds, gemhearts in Rosharan wildlife in general holding Stormlight, etc.

I think these are all forms of magical symbiosis, and these are what attracted Cultivation to the Rosharan system in the first place. The third, loose magic that Khriss might be referring to is the varios forms of magical symbiosis that happen all through the cosmere but are particularly prevalent on Roshar and Ashyn. But I take this as a connection to a shard, rather than to a particular Light, as the intent is Cultivation, but we have seen these effects powered by Stormlight, Lifelight, and Autonomous light, if not other kinds. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 2/27/2022 at 3:21 PM, KandraAllomancer said:

Of three magic systems on Roshar that don't involve Odium (Surgebinding, fabrials and Old Magic), only the ones including Honor have ten powers though

...

Cultivation won't have ten powers, as far as I can reasonably tell.

Something worth noting is that Ashyn is ten-based but its magic comes from Cultivation, so that's not a number exclusive to Honor.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

37 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

but its magic comes from Cultivation,

It's present day magic comes from cultivation, we know nothing about its original magic system i think