Ixthos Posted February 5, 2022 Report Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) I've been wondering about what future magic systems may appear in the Cosmere. So far we know about a few, including their associated Shard or Shards, and some we know exist in the Cosmere but don't know too many details about them, such as Microkinesis and the Aethers (though side tangent, I really hope at least the ones in Aether of Night remain, as one in particular struck me as being very relevant to space-age Cosmere). While it is possible there are multiple magic systems still in the Cosmere somehow related to the Shards we know and have seen (as Ashyn's magic diseases are implied to be due to Cultivation even if she isn't directly powering it at present, and Autonomy's Avatars likely are also powering some systems, and more on that below), I would like to consider some possible rudimentary magic systems - or perhaps, some possible forms of Initiation and usage - that could be derived from the revealed Shards who we haven't seen yet.  First however, three caveats. The first is that I won't be associating any magic we know a little about with the Shards. So, while we know Microkinesis is a canon magic system, as it likely predated the Shattering we can assume it isn't tied directly to the Shards (though there is a theory in the Unpublished Works subforum by @LewsTherinTelescope that supposes a link between the Dawnshards and Microkinesis - though when clicking the link please bare that in mind that it is in the Unpublished Works section - read it here), we can't assume it is based on any of the Shards so far named or left unnamed - it may, however, have been "adopted" by another Shard, or exists somehow dispersed into other systems. Aethers may or may not predate the Shattering, and may or may not now be tied to a Shard. The kite-based magic may be tied to Whimsy, but we don't know anything about it aside from it being based on kites. The biological abilities of various creatures, such as dragons shapeshifting, probably is distinct from the Shards, though the Royal Locks are certainly of Endowment through the Returned. These examples are not part of the theory. The second is that this won't be speculating on what the magic can do, but rather how one is Initiated and how the abilities are accessed. Some have abilities that match the Shard that powers them, such as Awakening allows one to bestow abilities to inanimate matter and gift enhancements to those who receive the Breath, but Surgebinding, of Honour, allows one to manipulate the Surge of Division, a Surge related to breaking matter apart rather than making bonds or causing growth - yet it still is of Honour and Cultivation because it is made by making and cultivating a bond by keeping oaths, and it does still allow access to Adhesion, Gravitation, and Tension, which pull things together or bind them, and Progression and Transformation, which growth things and change things, and can build them up. Allomancy and Feruchemy are an odd pair, as I still think Feruchemy and Allomancy should have traded places with each other in terms of relation to the Shards, with Feruchemy being of Preservation (preserving a trait in metal, saving something that may fade with time otherwise, and then retrieving it - officially it is Preserving a trait while temporarily Ruining oneself), and Allomancy being of Preservation and Ruin ("ruining" the metal by burning it, but drawing out power in the process, preserving their own strength, just as Ruin and Preservation are said to be unable to create separately, but together can do so - officially it is Preservation as one preserves their own strength), though Hemalurgy is certainly well grounded in the idea of Ruin. Sel's systems are form based, but it is implied one must be Devoted to their land or culture to gain access, and must practice and study to achieve Dominion on the complexities each entails, or for Dakhor, to exert Dominion over another, sacrificing them for power. And there is a special irony with Autonomy, but again, see below. In any event, the key point is this - this is not about what the powers can do, but rather how they may be accessed, both in being Initiated, and in usage. The third caveat is that, while we know not every Shard is invested in a world, we do know at least one Shard isn't. It may still somehow be powering a system, but there is at least one Shard that hasn't settled on a planet, and while Brandon hinted that Whimsy may not be on a planet - its world, if it has one, may be something very ... whimsical - it may or may not be one of the four we know the names of but haven't seen. It could be Invention due to Sazed saying that he couldn't find it again after initially talking to it, but again, it isn't clear. These Shards may or may not be powering magic systems, and may or may not be settled on one or more planets each (such as Autonomy's Avatars allowing it to settle on multiple worlds), and I'm also adding the hypothetical Wisdom Shard to the list, but either way this is simply speculating on how the magic may work for each. Planets (or whatever Whimsy is related to) do seem involved in certain parts of the magic systems, but the Shards matter as well. This is assuming a neutral planet, only one Shard powering it, and each producing at least one magic system.  So, first a list of the magic and initiation methods / usage mechanics of the known magic systems: Spoiler Sel (Devotion and Dominion - splintered) Sel's Form-based systems (Devotion, Dominion, and dependent on which of Sel's nations / lands the magic comes from) Initiation Not fully clear, may depend on each region - at the very least often requires being devoted to the land or nation or organisation which typically has access to the abilities, and being devoted to trying to dominate the skill via practice Usage Producing the right shapes or patterns, corresponding to the land where the magic originates  Scadrial (Ruin and Preservation) Allomancy (Preservation) Initiation Possessing the right family line which preserves the trait, and suffering aggressive and brutal punishment or pain (i.e. someone trying to ruin you, but Ruin isn't a part of this magic) Usage Burning a metal (... I've already mentioned how this ruins the metal) to draw power from Preservation  Feruchemy (Ruin and Preservation) Initiation Possessing the right family line which preserves the trait Usage Temporarily ruining oneself to preserve a trait to draw on later If combined with Allomancy it allows for more power to be drawn if the metal is burned, allowing Preservation's power to be accessed  Hemalurgy (Ruin) Initiation No initiation - as long as you know how to use it one can use it - raises questions on what would happen if Ruin or Scadrial were destroyed Usage wanting to steal a trait, and using a metal spike to kill someone, damaging their spirit web. The metal spike's charge will begin to decrease the longer it is out of a body, and when inserted into someone it will rip their spirit web, making holes  Roshar - planetary system (Odium, Cultivation, and Honour - Honour splintered) Surgebinding (Honour and Cultivation) Initiation By exemplifying a certain trait or code one can attract a spren associated with that code of conduct. If the spren so chooses, it can form a bond with the person who has drawn its attention, and that person can then choose to cultivate that bond by swearing and adhering to oaths Usage Drawing in stormlight and using the abilities associated with the spren  Fabrials (unknown) Initiation Capturing a spren, usually by attracting it with a trait it loves, inside a gemstone, then placing the gemstone in a device - possibly after altering the gemstone - to coax the spren into performing the desired function The Siblings form of Fabrials may be somewhat different, instead causing a spren to manifest physically Usage Applying the correct metals to the gemstone  Voidbinding (possibly Honour and Odium) (details unknown)  Old Magic (possibly Cultivation, though may involve other Shards) (details unknown)  Ashyn's disease magic (possibly Cultivation and may involve Odium) Initiation Catching a disease and cultivating it in ones body Usage So long as one is sick one can use the abilities, as soon as the immune system overcomes the disease the powers fade  Nalthis (Endowment) Awakening (Endowment) Initiation Everyone is born gifted with a single Breath from Endowment Being gifted with more Breathers from someone else - the more one has, the more benefits they receive from the amount of Breaths they have Usage Endowing one or more Breaths into an item with a command - the Breaths may later be retrieved from Awakened items so long as they weren't formerly living creatures, as otherwise the Breath becomes stuck  Returned (Endowment) Initiation Those chosen by Endowment after dying who agree to be endowed with a Divine Breath, and return to life Usage Must be endowed with a Breath each week by someone - or by alternative methods, such as stormlight Can choose to use their Divine Breath to endow healing on someone of their choosing, dying in the process  Taldain (Autonomy and/or Avatar(s) of Autonomy) Sand Mastery (one or more Avatars of Autonomy, possibly the Sand Lord - note the Sand Lord is implied to want to end Sand Mastery) Initiation Unknown Usage Forming a bond with the micro-organisms living on the sand on Dayside, temporarily controlling it by giving it water - see irony below  Darkside investiture (one or more Avatars of Autonomy - may be the same Avatar as for Sand Mastery) (details unknown)  Threnody (One or more splinters of Ambition - may or may not also be influenced by Odium and/or Mercy) Shades (splinter of Ambition - implied - and may or may not have been influenced by Odium and/or Mercy) Initiation Dying to the touch of another Shade - usually because they or someone else broke the Simple Rules Usage Being dead - compelled to attack those who break the Simple Rules, though may be able to resist for those they love  "Shade gun" (details unknown)  First of the Sun (Avatar(s) of Autonomy and / or Autonomy) Aviar (one or more Avatars of Autonomy, likely Patji) Initiation Bonding an Aviar which in turn has a parasitic worm living inside it - see irony below Usage At the discretion of the Aviar, may or may not be permanently active for some, or condition based for others - Aviar may be asked to use their abilities  Yolen (Unknown - possibly no Shard remained behind; originally the Power of Creation, though it may or may not have originally been on the planet prior to the Shattering) Microkinesis (details unknown) Lightweaving (details unknown) (Others - details not fully revealed but shown in Bridge Four sample chapters, in particular the last sample chapter. May or may not be canon.) Unknown Dawnshards (full details unknown - involves taking in the Dawnshard, one of the commands that made the Cosmere, becoming it) Aethers (details not yet cannon - physical symbiosis based) "Kite magic" (details unknown)  So, a list of possible magic systems.  Invention Initiation Making something - while making something someone may suddenly be initiated Study - anyone who does research may begin to form ideas in their mind, and those ideas draw Invention's attention Random - random people may gain the ability, manifesting as ideas in their mind Temporary, Invention takes an interest and the individual suddenly gains the magic, but it lasts only as long as Invention is their patron Usage Making something - simply trying to make something causes the abilities to work Making something - a sudden urge grips the person, and they have no choice but to invent  Mercy Initiation Showing mercy to someone, such as sparing someone in your power Sacrificing oneself for another who doesn't deserve it (may more closely match Devotion) Being spared - someone else showed you Mercy, and so you receive the gift - being shown Mercy literally ties you to Mercy Usage Only works when using the ability to help someone else Single use - sacrificing ones life for another (may more closely match Devotion) [Edit] Can only be used if perceived as a kindness - can't use it to harm someone unless harming them spares them pain, so can't use it to attack someone  Valour Initiation Showing bravery in battle Persevering despite the odds against you or the difficulty Usage Similar to Surgebinding oaths - acting in accordance with a code of conduct - so being brave. If you aren't acting bravely, the magic won't work Following a leader gives their followers abilities in the midst of some struggle - collective valour and purpose  Whimsy Initiation Whimsy (or some system set in place by Whimsy) randomly selects the individual who gains the ability, and they may only have it for a short time Each day everyone on the planet has a chance to have an ability, but if they do and which ability they have is random each day You aren't initiated - simply doing random things may result in magical effects, so anyone visiting the world can accidentally do magic Usage The power only works intermittently, and when trying to do something it may or may not work as intended, or do something different  (Hypothetical) Wisdom Initiation Study and practice, anyone who wants to can in theory gain access to the powers The older or the more wise someone is, the more power they have, or the older or more wise someone is the more likely they are to gain access to the ability You aren't initiated - anyone in range of the planet can inadvertently use this magic - see usage Usage Acting wisely produces magical effects - so if someone makes the most prudent decision, something magical happens even if the person wasn't trying to use magic   Finally, a last observation - the irony of Autonomy. There are at least two magic systems in the Cosmere related to Autonomy, being Sand Mastery and the Aviar. As mentioned above, both imply some form of bond has to be formed, and at least for Aviar, it is a three-way form. Thus the Shard associated with being oneself, of independence, is the Shard with two magic systems involving tying oneself to another creature, and either controlling it with Sand Mastery, or having a symbiotic bond with a creature (the Aviar) that has a symbiotic bond (the parasitic worm).  Thank you for reading. What do you suppose are examples of magic systems that may show up in the Cosmere? Edited February 5, 2022 by Ixthos Forgot to add link, formatting - also added entry to Mercy usage 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrafish Posted February 5, 2022 Report Share Posted February 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Ixthos said: Taldain (Autonomy and/or Avatar(s) of Autonomy) Sand Mastery (one or more Avatars of Autonomy, possibly the Sand Lord - note the Sand Lord is implied to want to end Sand Mastery) Initiation Unknown Usage Forming a bond with the micro-organisms living on the sand on Dayside, temporarily controlling it by giving it water - see irony below There is not a bond. People with sand magic are not invested. They have the ability to use the investiture of the sand.  Initiation for Autonomy-- I think that people's ability to use sand magic stems from how independent they are. Kenton is not any good without someone to fight against --> weak powers. Baon is completely independent and always obeys his commitments, but doesn't like to need anything (sun glasses) --> Very powerful. Kenton's dad doesn't need to interact with his family --> Very powerful. Drile is completely independent --> Strong powers. Dirin needed Kenton as an example to hang around --> weak powers. Kriss has servants and professors with her and all working for her and supporting her --> No power. This doesn't fully explain the training to get stronger part, but I like it because I haven't found a counterpoint, yet.  1 hour ago, Ixthos said: Finally, a last observation - the irony of Autonomy. There are at least two magic systems in the Cosmere related to Autonomy, being Sand Mastery and the Aviar. As mentioned above, both imply some form of bond has to be formed, and at least for Aviar, it is a three-way form. Thus the Shard associated with being oneself, of independence, is the Shard with two magic systems involving tying oneself to another creature, and either controlling it with Sand Mastery, or having a symbiotic bond with a creature (the Aviar) that has a symbiotic bond (the parasitic worm). I think that this seems to be mutualism for sand and parasites. But, this is based on the feeling that the use of the micro-organism's investiture could be beneficial to the micro-organisms somehow (faster reproduction?/ spreading). I am inclined to think that plants and animals use the micro-organism's investiture in less dramatic ways, as well. It does seem pretty ironic. But, I am inclined to think that Autonomy's magic has a whole bunch of moving pieces that all choose to work together for their own benefit, theoretically, but could function without. Thousands of separate pieces of sand and many very small parasites each give a little bit of power to individuals based on who they are. In the case of the aviar to human bond... Maybe something else is getting mixed with Autonomy, or maybe it is the idea that the aviar chooses what the human can see (independently) this allows the aviar to be fed and survive. The humans keep the aviars for survival as well. This seems like it could be Autonomy mixed with Wisdom/ Survival/ Prudence.  1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiePie Posted February 5, 2022 Report Share Posted February 5, 2022 3 hours ago, Ixthos said: Invention Initiation Making something - while making something someone may suddenly be initiated Study - anyone who does research may begin to form ideas in their mind, and those ideas draw Invention's attention Random - random people may gain the ability, manifesting as ideas in their mind Temporary, Invention takes an interest and the individual suddenly gains the magic, but it lasts only as long as Invention is their patron Usage Making something - simply trying to make something causes the abilities to work Making something - a sudden urge grips the person, and they have no choice but to invent While the rest feels a bit uninspired (I mean no offense, but simply inventing something causing people to get bursts of power doesn't feel like a Brandon "They Named the Laws of Magic After Me" Sanderson magic system... though with his skills I have little doubt he could convince me otherwise if he felt so inclined), a magic based purely on study feels right for an interpretation of Invention... Like your D&D wizards if I understand correctly(though, with the way Investiture works they'd be sorcerers but w/e). Though I do admit, "invention" could mean something a lot more... spontaneous. People, not studiously running through every possible material to see which emits the most light without melting while under large electric charge; but instead sitting in their bathtubs pondering when they put two before thought separate ideas together to have a "eureka!" moment. And in that light a lot of what you suggest does make more sense. I think the optimal magic system for Invention should display both those aspects. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Bzhydack Posted February 6, 2022 Report Share Posted February 6, 2022 4 hours ago, Ixthos said: Finally, a last observation - the irony of Autonomy. There are at least two magic systems in the Cosmere related to Autonomy, being Sand Mastery and the Aviar. As mentioned above, both imply some form of bond has to be formed, and at least for Aviar, it is a three-way form. Thus the Shard associated with being oneself, of independence, is the Shard with two magic systems involving tying oneself to another creature, and either controlling it with Sand Mastery, or having a symbiotic bond with a creature (the Aviar) that has a symbiotic bond (the parasitic worm). Autonomy's magic systems always have sense to me, because they are both achived by relation (not exactly Bond) with separate, idependent (i.e. Autonomous) living organism (also, look at Ashynite system. Similar, right?)  4 hours ago, Ixthos said: Allomancy and Feruchemy are an odd pair, as I still think Feruchemy and Allomancy should have traded places with each other in terms of relation to the Shards, with Feruchemy being of Preservation (preserving a trait in metal, saving something that may fade with time otherwise, and then retrieving it - officially it is Preserving a trait while temporarily Ruining oneself), and Allomancy being of Preservation and Ruin ("ruining" the metal by burning it, but drawing out power in the process, preserving their own strength, just as Ruin and Preservation are said to be unable to create separately, but together can do so - officially it is Preservation as one preserves their own strength), Brandon talked about this once. Is not about preserving the trait, is about helping preserve user. Quote Chaos Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things? Brandon Sanderson One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited. The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift--allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy. /r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011)  0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 6, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2022 9 hours ago, Kandrafish said: There is not a bond. People with sand magic are not invested. They have the ability to use the investiture of the sand. From Arcanum Unbounded: Spoiler Giving water to the tiny plant causes a chain reaction of sudden growth, energy, and Realmic transition. Certain people can control this reaction, using the water from their own bodies to forge a brief Cognitive bond. They can draw Investiture (in very small amounts) directly from the Spiritual Realm, and use that to control the sand. Though the effect is dramatic, the actual power used is quite small. This is a magic more about finesse than raw strength. This suggests they are invested, using their own power, albeit a small amount.  9 hours ago, Kandrafish said: Initiation for Autonomy-- I think that people's ability to use sand magic stems from how independent they are. Kenton is not any good without someone to fight against --> weak powers. Baon is completely independent and always obeys his commitments, but doesn't like to need anything (sun glasses) --> Very powerful. Kenton's dad doesn't need to interact with his family --> Very powerful. Drile is completely independent --> Strong powers. Dirin needed Kenton as an example to hang around --> weak powers. Kriss has servants and professors with her and all working for her and supporting her --> No power. This doesn't fully explain the training to get stronger part, but I like it because I haven't found a counterpoint, yet. That may be it, but it hasn't been confirmed. It would make sense, and I do agree it is likely the answer or part of the answer, but it isn't clear.  9 hours ago, Kandrafish said: I think that this seems to be mutualism for sand and parasites. But, this is based on the feeling that the use of the micro-organism's investiture could be beneficial to the micro-organisms somehow (faster reproduction?/ spreading). I am inclined to think that plants and animals use the micro-organism's investiture in less dramatic ways, as well. It does seem pretty ironic. But, I am inclined to think that Autonomy's magic has a whole bunch of moving pieces that all choose to work together for their own benefit, theoretically, but could function without. Thousands of separate pieces of sand and many very small parasites each give a little bit of power to individuals based on who they are. In the case of the aviar to human bond... Maybe something else is getting mixed with Autonomy, or maybe it is the idea that the aviar chooses what the human can see (independently) this allows the aviar to be fed and survive. The humans keep the aviars for survival as well. This seems like it could be Autonomy mixed with Wisdom/ Survival/ Prudence. In general Autonomy does seem very counter to what one would expect from that Shard, unless the individual Avatars have different attitudes. Autonomy wants to be left alone, but also wants to meddle with others ("Leave me alone, I want to do what I want, not what you want. And what I want to do is play with your stuff"). Either way Autonomy seems to like isolation, or at least a community of itself. Honour's magic, along with Cultivation, is the strongest bond-based magic we know of (strongest in terms of strength of the bond), and Devotion's Seons - as they are built around her splinters - likewise are bond oriented, and both Honour and Devotion are implied to be forms of opposites to Autonomy, as they would naturally suggest symbiotic bonds, though I suppose Autonomy could be bonds between equals as opposed to bonds of service and obedience.  For the working without part, however, I don't see how the parasitic worm is able to survive without the host after being ingested, but we don't know enough. I do like the idea of Autonomy's magic being mixed with another Shard though.  8 hours ago, DiePie said: While the rest feels a bit uninspired (I mean no offense, but simply inventing something causing people to get bursts of power doesn't feel like a Brandon "They Named the Laws of Magic After Me" Sanderson magic system... though with his skills I have little doubt he could convince me otherwise if he felt so inclined), [...] To be fair I wasn't trying to make fully fleshed out systems - the planets matter too, as the metallic arts require metals and factor their ruin and preservation around them. Roshar has spren and the bonds and cultivation present are tied to them. If you like I can make a post in more detail with hypothetically transplanting one or more of these Shards to existing worlds, so making a post where we suppose metal (Scadrial), spren (Roshar), disease (Ashyn), command/colour (Nalthis), sand (Taldain) magic systems, with one or more of the five Shards mentioned. Also, the bare boned description of the magic systems mentioned above, such as Surgebinding or Allomancy, stripped of their focus, would also sound uninspired, even though we know the full systems are stunning. Remember, this is only supposed to be about one third of each system, it doesn't cover what the abilities could be used to do or what elements of the world factor in. As I said in the original post, these are rudimentary magic systems. I probably should have made this clearer as well, but for some of the ideas with Invention the invented item is powered by Invention, so the magic isn't so much the person makes something and now can fly, but rather when they made something it can fly when they ride it, so they become a type of battery or relay. (... maybe I took a little offence ) Part of the idea for the suggestions for Invention was also modelled on the Sparks in Girl Genius, who can make crazy steampunk mad science devices.  8 hours ago, DiePie said: [...] a magic based purely on study feels right for an interpretation of Invention... Like your D&D wizards if I understand correctly(though, with the way Investiture works they'd be sorcerers but w/e). From what I know about Dungeons and Dragons their magic is based on study and then when the magic is used they forget the spell and have to study it again. That could work for Invention (or any of the "blue" Shards Brandon mentioned haven't been seen yet, when someone asked him about MtG colours for the Shards). Are Sorcerers the ones who can just cast any spell without having to prepare it?  8 hours ago, DiePie said: Though I do admit, "invention" could mean something a lot more... spontaneous. People, not studiously running through every possible material to see which emits the most light without melting while under large electric charge; but instead sitting in their bathtubs pondering when they put two before thought separate ideas together to have a "eureka!" moment. And in that light a lot of what you suggest does make more sense. I think the optimal magic system for Invention should display both those aspects. Agreed - basically Invention may be listening in to people's thoughts and then whispering suggestions to them, and then giving a helping hand when they make something, actively powering it or changing some properties. The big issue is that a lot of the ideas for Invention are already present in Fabrials, mechanical Allomancy, and Sel's programming properties, as we have already seen several magical technologies in the Cosmere, so Invention would need to do something to truly stand out.  7 hours ago, Bzhydack said: Autonomy's magic systems always have sense to me, because they are both achived by relation (not exactly Bond) with separate, idependent (i.e. Autonomous) living organism (also, look at Ashynite system. Similar, right?) Both Sand Mastery and the Aviar are described as forming bonds. The issue is Autonomy is the opposite of Honour and Devotion and Dominion - those are about relationships in a positive sense, while Autonomy is about relations in a negative sense, i.e. rejecting being tied to something or being higher or lower in a relationship to someone (no one depends on you, you don't depend on anyone.  7 hours ago, Bzhydack said: Brandon talked about this once. Is not about preserving the trait, is about helping preserve user. I think you misread what I wrote, as that is what I said. Please reread the section of my post you quoted - you will see I made that observation, as the traits section was for Feruchemy and the drawing strength from Preservation while preserving their own strength was for Allomancy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted February 6, 2022 Report Share Posted February 6, 2022 (edited) Yeah, Preservation is not necessarily "end neutral" in Intent. Preservation tries to Preserve everything, even at the cost of itself (Leras - shaped by the Intent of Preservation - couldn't even try to kill/destroy Ruin, but he could sacrifice himself to imprison him in order to Preserve Scadrial). That's why the "end positive" nature of Allomancy fits - Preservation is giving of itself to Preserve the users of Allomancy (they aren't using up their own strength like Feruchemy, or stealing the powers of others like Hemalurgy). Preservation isn't necessarily good, but not because it's inherently "end neutral" - because Preservation's ideal is ultimate stasis, where nothing is destroyed or dies, but also nothing changes or grows or truly lives. EDIT: I am not sure the Aviar and Shades are going to follow the rule of 'how you access the magic system connects to the Shard's Intent' - I am not sure these are Invested Arts in that sense, they're more "magic in nature" set-ups than "magic systems" in the full Invested Art sense. Yes, the Aviar bond seems kind of similar to the spren bond on Roshar, but a Knight Radiant uses the Surges personally, though access to them is granted by the spren bond - the Aviar seems to use the power itself, though its benefit goes to the bonded person ... Sixth of the Dusk can see shadows of his possible deaths, and his mind is hidden from others, but he doesn't seem to do anything actively to use the powers (no equivalent of burning metal or tapping metalminds or using a Surge or Awakening with a Command or drawing Aons). Â Edited February 6, 2022 by cometaryorbit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted February 6, 2022 Report Share Posted February 6, 2022 (edited) On 2/5/2022 at 4:43 PM, Kandrafish said: There is not a bond. People with sand magic are not invested. They have the ability to use the investiture of the sand.  Initiation for Autonomy-- I think that people's ability to use sand magic stems from how independent they are. Kenton is not any good without someone to fight against --> weak powers. Baon is completely independent and always obeys his commitments, but doesn't like to need anything (sun glasses) --> Very powerful. Kenton's dad doesn't need to interact with his family --> Very powerful. Drile is completely independent --> Strong powers. Dirin needed Kenton as an example to hang around --> weak powers. Kriss has servants and professors with her and all working for her and supporting her --> No power. This doesn't fully explain the training to get stronger part, but I like it because I haven't found a counterpoint, yet.  I think that this seems to be mutualism for sand and parasites. But, this is based on the feeling that the use of the micro-organism's investiture could be beneficial to the micro-organisms somehow (faster reproduction?/ spreading). I am inclined to think that plants and animals use the micro-organism's investiture in less dramatic ways, as well. It does seem pretty ironic. But, I am inclined to think that Autonomy's magic has a whole bunch of moving pieces that all choose to work together for their own benefit, theoretically, but could function without. Thousands of separate pieces of sand and many very small parasites each give a little bit of power to individuals based on who they are. In the case of the aviar to human bond... Maybe something else is getting mixed with Autonomy, or maybe it is the idea that the aviar chooses what the human can see (independently) this allows the aviar to be fed and survive. The humans keep the aviars for survival as well. This seems like it could be Autonomy mixed with Wisdom/ Survival/ Prudence.  "Mercy, and so you receive the gift - being shown Mercy literally ties you to Mercy"  this sound like a mixture of endowment and the nightwatcher. I could see a magic system where those suffering or in need recieve a access as act of "mercy" from mercy.   Valour Initiation Showing bravery in battle  Maybe the act of give your life for someone or facing your fears. Like the epic weakness but instead of againing the ability to use your power without going insane, you activate your powers. Edited February 7, 2022 by bmcclure7 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 16 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Yeah, Preservation is not necessarily "end neutral" in Intent. Preservation tries to Preserve everything, even at the cost of itself (Leras - shaped by the Intent of Preservation - couldn't even try to kill/destroy Ruin, but he could sacrifice himself to imprison him in order to Preserve Scadrial). That's why the "end positive" nature of Allomancy fits - Preservation is giving of itself to Preserve the users of Allomancy (they aren't using up their own strength like Feruchemy, or stealing the powers of others like Hemalurgy). Preservation isn't necessarily good, but not because it's inherently "end neutral" - because Preservation's ideal is ultimate stasis, where nothing is destroyed or dies, but also nothing changes or grows or truly lives. I would argue that is the definition of neutrality - if nothing changes then when you compare the past and the present you have a net zero change - neutrality. Ruin wants decay, the difference becoming a negative, and together we've been informed Preservation and Ruin can produce a net positive. Giving energy to something to prevent it from decaying is ultimately trying to counter the decay rather than to increase it for its own sake - Preservation isn't Cultivation or Endowment, though I think even Endowment involves some negatives.  16 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: EDIT: I am not sure the Aviar and Shades are going to follow the rule of 'how you access the magic system connects to the Shard's Intent' - I am not sure these are Invested Arts in that sense, they're more "magic in nature" set-ups than "magic systems" in the full Invested Art sense. Yes, the Aviar bond seems kind of similar to the spren bond on Roshar, but a Knight Radiant uses the Surges personally, though access to them is granted by the spren bond - the Aviar seems to use the power itself, though its benefit goes to the bonded person ... Sixth of the Dusk can see shadows of his possible deaths, and his mind is hidden from others, but he doesn't seem to do anything actively to use the powers (no equivalent of burning metal or tapping metalminds or using a Surge or Awakening with a Command or drawing Aons). This actually adds to the irony, as the magic then is even more focused on one being dependent on another. Power that another being exercises on your behalf, possibly at your request, is not the definition of autonomy. I don't doubt it will make sense later, with Autonomy's nature explored and more insight into why it or its Avatars produces the magic they do and act the way they do, such as their meddling with others, given context, as perhaps the autonomous Avatars of Autonomy exercise the hypocritical type of autonomy, while others are more in line with the more positive sides.  13 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: "Mercy, and so you receive the gift - being shown Mercy literally ties you to Mercy"  this sound like a mixture of endowment and the nightwatcher. I could see a magic system where those suffering or in need recieve a access as act of "mercy" from mercy.   Valour Initiation Showing bravery in battle  Maybe the act of give your life for someone or facing your fears. Like the epic weakness but instead of againing the ability to use your power without going insane, you activate your powers. I like your ideas - one where Mercy shows up personality or directly intervenes, and the other where the valour is applied to the consequences of the power.   Also, heads up to everyone, but I made another topic a day ago to provide more fleshed out systems based on the main Shard worlds. You may find it here: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/105602-what-if-expansion-on-hypothetical-magic-systems-topic 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 3 hours ago, Ixthos said: This actually adds to the irony, as the magic then is even more focused on one being dependent on another. Power that another being exercises on your behalf, possibly at your request, is not the definition of autonomy. What I was trying to say there is that I'm not convinced that the 'Shard Intent influences how you access the magic system' (Initiation) rule applies to "magic in the environment" worlds like First of the Sun and Threnody. I don't think people on either world have an Initiation in that sense at all, since they aren't really using the Investiture at all. (IE, I don't think Sixth of the Dusk is drawing any Investiture, either from himself like Feruchemy/Awakening or from the Spiritual Realm like Allomancy/AonDor - even the little bit a Sand Master is using. Getting withered into a shade by a shade is similarly "passive" - the shade seems to be doing something with Investiture, but I don't think the human is.) So I don't think Autonomy really has anything to do with the Aviar bond at all, or at least not its origins & fundamental nature (as opposed to meddling going on after the fact). 3 hours ago, Ixthos said: I would argue that is the definition of neutrality - if nothing changes then when you compare the past and the present you have a net zero change - neutrality. Ruin wants decay, the difference becoming a negative, and together we've been informed Preservation and Ruin can produce a net positive. Neutral vs positive depends on what system you are looking at. Preservation tries to Preserve the world, even at its own expense - so it depends on whether you are considering the power of the Shard itself as part of the system. End-positive etc. is an in-world terminology anyway, which applies to human-used magic systems, not Shardic actions. Ruin and Preservation being unable to create alone I think is more about Intent limitations than end-positive/end-negative magic system limitations. (Investiture is ultimately conserved; everything is neutral if one considers the entire Cosmere, including the Shards themselves, as the system. Even converting the Shards' raw investiture to "create" matter is still neutral in that "conservation laws" sense.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: What I was trying to say there is that I'm not convinced that the 'Shard Intent influences how you access the magic system' (Initiation) rule applies to "magic in the environment" worlds like First of the Sun and Threnody. I don't think people on either world have an Initiation in that sense at all, since they aren't really using the Investiture at all. (IE, I don't think Sixth of the Dusk is drawing any Investiture, either from himself like Feruchemy/Awakening or from the Spiritual Realm like Allomancy/AonDor - even the little bit a Sand Master is using. Getting withered into a shade by a shade is similarly "passive" - the shade seems to be doing something with Investiture, but I don't think the human is.) So I don't think Autonomy really has anything to do with the Aviar bond at all, or at least not its origins & fundamental nature (as opposed to meddling going on after the fact). It may not directly apply to the way people interact with the magic, but it does influence the magic. For example, Ashyn's diseases are influenced by Cultivation even though it is also a form of "passive" investiture, much as the Aviar's worms are magic from a symbiotic creature. Roshar's ecology drew Honour and Cultivation - before they powered magic systems - because it is about symbiotic bonds and cultivation of life through those bonds, as seen with Greatshells, Skyeels, etc. Shades are rules and behaviour focused, likely due to being made from Ambition's investiture. I think the nature of life on worlds where Autonomy's investiture - rather than unaligned and unkeyed investiture - is present are likewise affected. Also, we do know Trackers are individualists who try to kill each other, so I do admit there is certainly a form of autonomy present.  15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Neutral vs positive depends on what system you are looking at. Preservation tries to Preserve the world, even at its own expense - so it depends on whether you are considering the power of the Shard itself as part of the system. End-positive etc. is an in-world terminology anyway, which applies to human-used magic systems, not Shardic actions. Ruin and Preservation being unable to create alone I think is more about Intent limitations than end-positive/end-negative magic system limitations. (Investiture is ultimately conserved; everything is neutral if one considers the entire Cosmere, including the Shards themselves, as the system. Even converting the Shards' raw investiture to "create" matter is still neutral in that "conservation laws" sense.) Hmmm ... Shards do in theory have access to infinite amounts of power, and infinity (a topic I love to discuss) is complex with regards to how things relate. Endowment does push energy into the system, but also takes it back out with the Returned consuming Breaths, so it is a little hard to say if the entire Cosmere is neutral, but fair enough. Is there enough power in the Spiritual Realm to fill the entire Cosmere with energy, or enough capacity to fold all matter into the Spiritual Realm and leave the Physical and Cognitive Realms empty? The thing is, we haven't seen an example of Preservation interacting by itself with a world that is growing and changing. We've seen Preservation put energy into a system to prevent loss, but we haven't seen Preservation try to, for example, smother a fire. Would smothering a fire be a positive act or a negative act or a neutral act? If a world was building up, and a villainous version of Preservation froze it in time, would that be positive or negative or neutral? In any event, I wasn't trying to say Shards are in and of themselves end-positive, etc., only that the ACTIONS can be considered positive or negative. I am arguing that Allomancy, mechanically, matches a combination of Ruin and Preservation better than it does simply matching Preservation itself, and likewise the reverse for Feruchemy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 17 hours ago, Ixthos said: It may not directly apply to the way people interact with the magic, but it does influence the magic. For example, Ashyn's diseases are influenced by Cultivation even though it is also a form of "passive" investiture, much as the Aviar's worms are magic from a symbiotic creature. I am not sure Ashyn is really the same thing - that (from the few hints we have) seems to be a magic system actively used by humans. 17 hours ago, Ixthos said: I think the nature of life on worlds where Autonomy's investiture - rather than unaligned and unkeyed investiture - is present are likewise affected. Also, we do know Trackers are individualists who try to kill each other, so I do admit there is certainly a form of autonomy present. I don't think there is any such thing as unaligned Investiture (except maybe during the transition from one type to another eg what Raboniel and Navani are doing when converting Lights in RoW). All Investiture was "assigned" to one of the Shards at the Shattering - though the Shard/Vessel as a person may not be aware of the Investiture on a planet they aren't resident on. The trapper culture could totally be Autonomy influenced. 17 hours ago, Ixthos said: Hmmm ... Shards do in theory have access to infinite amounts of power, and infinity (a topic I love to discuss) is complex with regards to how things relate. I'm not really convinced Shards are actually infinite in the mathematical sense, rather than simply absurdly incredibly highly Invested - Preservation putting Investiture into humans weakened it vs. Ruin, and Preservation stealing some of Ruin's Investiture to make atium weakened Ruin. Subtracting a finite quantity from infinity shouldn't make a difference. 17 hours ago, Ixthos said: In any event, I wasn't trying to say Shards are in and of themselves end-positive, etc., only that the ACTIONS can be considered positive or negative. I am arguing that Allomancy, mechanically, matches a combination of Ruin and Preservation better than it does simply matching Preservation itself, and likewise the reverse for Feruchemy. What I was getting at is that Allomancy draws power from Preservation, not from the user - Preservation is "giving of itself" to Preserve the user's strength. Whereas Feruchemy draws power from the user. So Feruchemy is end-neutral, which kind of seems more Preservation-y, but I think it's critical that Preservation's Intent doesn't require it to Preserve itself. (Just as Leras/Preservation could sacrifice his mind to trap Ruin, though his Intent prevented him from trying to kill Ati/Ruin.) Re: Allomancy being of Preservation, the "survival" aspect of Snapping may also be relevant. Feruchemy doesn't seem to have an initiation mechanism. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 9, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said: I am not sure Ashyn is really the same thing - that (from the few hints we have) seems to be a magic system actively used by humans. Nevertheless Ashyn doesn't have a Shard, and so is closer to or the same as the non-Shard magic systems in the Cosmere. We know Shards can meddle on worlds that don't directly have Shards, so Cultivation's influence doesn't make Ashyn's diseases full systems. It isn't about "people" with magic, but nature with magic that the people can interact with. From Arcanum: Quote Questioner What differentiates a minor Shardworld like First of the Sun? Brandon Sanderson The amount of Investiture, and whether there is actually a Shard in presence. Questioner I'm assuming there is not one there? Brandon Sanderson There is not one there. Questioner So it's like a Splintered one from something else? Brandon Sanderson No what you'll find is that the worlds were all created with a level of-- a little bit of sort of ambient magic. What you'll find in worlds like that is things like, Shadows for Silence and things like this, the magic, it's not necessarily "people with magic" it's you can interact with nature... Questioner So there is inherent Investiture... Brandon Sanderson There is inherent investiture in every world created but you are going to see-- You aren't going to find Mistborn on a world like that but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting. Spren could exist on a world like that but they would be like the minor spren, you wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren. Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014) I would classify the symbiotic bonds the diseases grant to be more in line with the Aviar's worms than with Metalborn, Surgebinders, or even Awakeners or Sandmasters, especially as it is temprary and something your body tries to fight off. The LIFE on the planet has magic, and the people can interact and intercept it, but it is always temporary.   1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said: I don't think there is any such thing as unaligned Investiture (except maybe during the transition from one type to another eg what Raboniel and Navani are doing when converting Lights in RoW). All Investiture was "assigned" to one of the Shards at the Shattering - though the Shard/Vessel as a person may not be aware of the Investiture on a planet they aren't resident on. In a recent Q&A Brandon mentioned how a soulstamp could turn someone into a Mistborn if they previously had the opportunity to have ingested Lerasium, and if they had access to unkeyed Dor, implying that the Dor, the combination of Dominion and Devotion, can be unkeyed from them. I believe it was in this video:  We also know that Stormlight and Voidlight can be disassociated and turned into anti-investiture, and removing the keying from Stormlight is one of the Ghostblood's goals. Unkeying is to make the investiture "neutral", and in theory usable by anyone or any Shard.  1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said: I'm not really convinced Shards are actually infinite in the mathematical sense, rather than simply absurdly incredibly highly Invested - Preservation putting Investiture into humans weakened it vs. Ruin, and Preservation stealing some of Ruin's Investiture to make atium weakened Ruin. Subtracting a finite quantity from infinity shouldn't make a difference. It isn't about how much they can access but about how much "they have on them", like when Brandon noted about Autonomy being able to sense the pool of power that was on First of the Sun and then meddle with it, becoming aware of something you had always known, etc. so sensing something in the Physical Realm that was a part of them but which previously they couldn't access. We don't fully know the mechanics involved, but there seems to be both infinite power available, but not all at once. The key question is how much investiture is in the Spiritual Realm.  1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said: What I was getting at is that Allomancy draws power from Preservation, not from the user - Preservation is "giving of itself" to Preserve the user's strength. Whereas Feruchemy draws power from the user. So Feruchemy is end-neutral, which kind of seems more Preservation-y, but I think it's critical that Preservation's Intent doesn't require it to Preserve itself. (Just as Leras/Preservation could sacrifice his mind to trap Ruin, though his Intent prevented him from trying to kill Ati/Ruin.) Re: Allomancy being of Preservation, the "survival" aspect of Snapping may also be relevant. Feruchemy doesn't seem to have an initiation mechanism. I understand that, but you can also argue that Feruchemy is preserving a trait that otherwise would be subject to Ruin. A coppermind holds memories perfectly that would fade in the mind, and only degrade when accessed. Allomancy meanwhile actively ruins a piece of metal. We also don't know enough about Feruchemy to know when someone becomes a Feruchemist. If you give a baby from Feruchemist parents a metalmind, could they use it immediately, only after they are told what they could do, or after some event? There isn't enough information. If Preservation saw a wheel that was slowly speeding up, would it let it continue to speed up, actively help it speed up, stop it from speeding up and thus to go at whatever speed it currently is going at, or try to stop it? We know Ruin would likely either stop it or make it speed up to the point it destroys itself, and if it couldn't be destroyed by its own speed then definitely slowing it down, but what would Preservation do, for a destructible or indestructible wheel? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CryoZenith Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 On 06.02.2022 at 10:52 AM, Ixthos said: From Arcanum Unbounded:  Reveal hidden contents Giving water to the tiny plant causes a chain reaction of sudden growth, energy, and Realmic transition. Certain people can control this reaction, using the water from their own bodies to forge a brief Cognitive bond. They can draw Investiture (in very small amounts) directly from the Spiritual Realm, and use that to control the sand. Though the effect is dramatic, the actual power used is quite small. This is a magic more about finesse than raw strength. From what I know about Dungeons and Dragons their magic is based on study and then when the magic is used they forget the spell and have to study it again. That could work for Invention (or any of the "blue" Shards Brandon mentioned haven't been seen yet, when someone asked him about MtG colours for the Shards). Are Sorcerers the ones who can just cast any spell without having to prepare it? So, as a disclaimer, I haven't played any D&D edition past 3.5, so I don't know if this explanation got retconned later, but the way Wizards work in 3.5, is that what it means to prepare a spell is to mentally go through the chant required to cast it during the 1 hour spellbook study each morning, stop yourself when you're 95%-98% done, and what you're doing when you're actually casting the spell is completing the 5 to 2% left in the sequence. And then the spell is used up because it's deployed. So "forgetting" is not what's actually happening, it's a very loose analogy. A better analogy is that you're sitting at a workbench, with an instruction manual (spellbook) open in front of you, and constructing a grenade (fireball). And when you enter combat later in the day, all that's left for you to do is remove the pin in the grenade (complete the sequence) and throw it (aim the fireball). Sorcerers on the other hand have a natural affinity for magic which wizards lack, and this allows them to intuitively and subconsciously shape the arcane magic without need for the "manual" chanting/tinkering of the grenade. D&D tangent over; more to the point, I don't know if I would like it for Invention's magic system to be related to/reliant upon memory loss/needing to relearn things to reuse them. It just doesn't feel right. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 9, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 2 hours ago, CryoZenith said: So, as a disclaimer, I haven't played any D&D edition past 3.5, so I don't know if this explanation got retconned later, but the way Wizards work in 3.5, is that what it means to prepare a spell is to mentally go through the chant required to cast it during the 1 hour spellbook study each morning, stop yourself when you're 95%-98% done, and what you're doing when you're actually casting the spell is completing the 5 to 2% left in the sequence. And then the spell is used up because it's deployed. So "forgetting" is not what's actually happening, it's a very loose analogy. A better analogy is that you're sitting at a workbench, with an instruction manual (spellbook) open in front of you, and constructing a grenade (fireball). And when you enter combat later in the day, all that's left for you to do is remove the pin in the grenade (complete the sequence) and throw it (aim the fireball). Sorcerers on the other hand have a natural affinity for magic which wizards lack, and this allows them to intuitively and subconsciously shape the arcane magic without need for the "manual" chanting/tinkering of the grenade. Ahhh, thanks  2 hours ago, CryoZenith said: D&D tangent over; more to the point, I don't know if I would like it for Invention's magic system to be related to/reliant upon memory loss/needing to relearn things to reuse them. It just doesn't feel right. I agree Invention wouldn't be the best for memory, but a mind based Shard could make sense, as there are already memory functions in Feruchemy, Surgebinding (Lightweavers), and Awakening, so a system where something is put in the mind and then leaves when used would fit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 16 hours ago, Ixthos said: I would classify the symbiotic bonds the diseases grant to be more in line with the Aviar's worms than with Metalborn, Surgebinders, or even Awakeners or Sandmasters, especially as it is temprary and something your body tries to fight off. The LIFE on the planet has magic, and the people can interact and intercept it, but it is always temporary.   In a recent Q&A Brandon mentioned how a soulstamp could turn someone into a Mistborn if they previously had the opportunity to have ingested Lerasium, and if they had access to unkeyed Dor, implying that the Dor, the combination of Dominion and Devotion, can be unkeyed from them. I believe it was in this video: I think Ashyn people did Surgebind (though admittedly it might be a loose use of the word like calling the Fused spren). I figured that was a full Shardworld magic system (Cultivation) - just one where the Shard later left. It can be unkeyed 'artificially', yes, but I don't think unkeyed Investiture naturally exists. 16 hours ago, Ixthos said: If Preservation saw a wheel that was slowly speeding up, would it let it continue to speed up, actively help it speed up, stop it from speeding up and thus to go at whatever speed it currently is going at, or try to stop it? We know Ruin would likely either stop it or make it speed up to the point it destroys itself, and if it couldn't be destroyed by its own speed then definitely slowing it down, but what would Preservation do, for a destructible or indestructible wheel? I think that would be influenced by the Vessel's interpretation of what Preservation means. Vin would probably keep the current rate of increase IMO; Leras as we see him in Secret History would probably keep the same speed. (Originally he probably did see the need for growth, however.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: I think Ashyn people did Surgebind (though admittedly it might be a loose use of the word like calling the Fused spren). I figured that was a full Shardworld magic system (Cultivation) - just one where the Shard later left. The powers are implied to be due to the Dawnshards, so it likely wasn't Cultivation, at least at first. I think she may have stepped in after the disaster, but not before. Â 8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: It can be unkeyed 'artificially', yes, but I don't think unkeyed Investiture naturally exists. Unkeyed may actually be the most natural form of Investiture, as it would be Investiture most likely like the Power originally had before being shattered - it may be unnatural now, but it likely was the most natural form originally. Either way, I'm not sure why it would need to be natural? Â 8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: I think that would be influenced by the Vessel's interpretation of what Preservation means. Vin would probably keep the current rate of increase IMO; Leras as we see him in Secret History would probably keep the same speed. (Originally he probably did see the need for growth, however.) That likely ties then to the pressure the Shard exerts, the Vessel becoming less able to resist, the more "natural" or straightforwards version of the Shard becoming the default over time. In either case we can assume Vin, if she held the Shard long enough, likely would also become focused on keeping the wheel at the speed it currently is going at, which would mean removing the energy from the wheel that is being added to it to prevent it from speeding up, as acceleration requires a force. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted February 11, 2022 Report Share Posted February 11, 2022 19 hours ago, Ixthos said: The powers are implied to be due to the Dawnshards, so it likely wasn't Cultivation, at least at first. I think she may have stepped in after the disaster, but not before. I took the implication of Dawnshard (the novella) to be that a Dawnshard lets you use whatever Invested Art you have access to at enormously increased (world-threatening) levels of power - but it doesn't give you obvious overt powers by itself (though there are Heightening type effects). Thus why Rysn is now not supposed to bond a spren - she's not that dangerous with just the Dawnshard, but the Dawnshard plus (KR-style) Surgebinding would give her world-threatening powers. So I think what destroyed Ashyn was (Ashynite) Surgebinding "supercharged" through one or more Dawnshards. (If it was a war, presumably at least two, but I am not sure we know that it was -- could have been more like a magical version of an industrial accident.) 19 hours ago, Ixthos said: Either way, I'm not sure why it would need to be natural? I just meant that there's probably not "unkeyed" Investiture just 'sitting out there' on planets like First of the Sun, Threnody, etc. - it probably only exists where actively made by someone. 19 hours ago, Ixthos said: That likely ties then to the pressure the Shard exerts, the Vessel becoming less able to resist, the more "natural" or straightforwards version of the Shard becoming the default over time. I mostly agree, but some Shards might have more than one equally "natural" interpretation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2022 3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: I took the implication of Dawnshard (the novella) to be that a Dawnshard lets you use whatever Invested Art you have access to at enormously increased (world-threatening) levels of power - but it doesn't give you obvious overt powers by itself (though there are Heightening type effects). Thus why Rysn is now not supposed to bond a spren - she's not that dangerous with just the Dawnshard, but the Dawnshard plus (KR-style) Surgebinding would give her world-threatening powers. So I think what destroyed Ashyn was (Ashynite) Surgebinding "supercharged" through one or more Dawnshards. (If it was a war, presumably at least two, but I am not sure we know that it was -- could have been more like a magical version of an industrial accident.) I agree that's possible, but it also could be that - as they were implied to have multiple Dawnshards, though I don't think they were at war, I think it was just Ishar experimenting with the Dawnshards, so less industrial accident and more mad science, though them being at war would be an interesting part of the story - that if you have two Dawnshards you can somehow combine their power. It also could be that Dawnshards actually grant power if you know how to use them, but that Rysn doesn't yet know how to do that, but if you combine them with another magic system then their power is amplified. So, one by itself may or may not grant magic you may or may not be able to naturally use without knowing its there (like Vin and Allomancy, or as she used to call it, Luck), and / or having two grants enormous power, and / or one and another system amplifies the power of that other system. Ashynite Surgebinding is likely completely unrelated to Rosharan Surgebinding in that the Rosharans would consider any magic from elsewhere in the Cosmere to be the binding of Surges - I can't find the quote right now, but I remember reading that Rosharans consider anything which can do what Surgebinding can do to be Surgebinding. The disease magic came after the disaster, so I think that was the point Cultivation's power became involved.  3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: I just meant that there's probably not "unkeyed" Investiture just 'sitting out there' on planets like First of the Sun, Threnody, etc. - it probably only exists where actively made by someone. Perhaps, though I think there likely is "mostly pure" Investiture elsewhere in the Cosmere, which may lean towards one or more Shards but isn't fully for one or more of them explicitely, which can be tweaked or more strongly aligned to a Shard if it finds it or to a Shard it already is partially related to - as multiple Shards have paid attention to First of the Sun, I think that may be an example, but this isn't clear.  3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: I mostly agree, but some Shards might have more than one equally "natural" interpretation. Agreed, and the names the Shards have depends strongly on how the Vessel views that natural or set of natural inclinations. When we see a Shards power, like Kelsier seeing Ruin, or looking into Preservation's eyes, or Dalinar observing Odium, that likely is a close insight into the Shard. Kelsier saw Preservation: Quote And in that moment, Kelsier was reminded why he had named this creature a god in the first place. There was an infinity beyond those eyes, a complement to the one trapped here in this Well. Fuzz was the infinity of a note held perfectly, never wavering. The majesty of a painting, frozen and still, capturing a slice of life from a time gone by. It was the power of many, many moments compressed somehow into one. A note, held perfectly means that if it tries to rise in pitch or become louder it will be suppressed back down. I don't doubt Preservation and Cultivation would form a Shard that would keep the good and build upon it, but Preservation by itself will actively stifle growth if that growth is change to what it is Preserving. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted February 11, 2022 Report Share Posted February 11, 2022 On 5.2.2022 at 9:27 PM, Ixthos said:  Hide contents Sel (Devotion and Dominion - splintered) Sel's Form-based systems (Devotion, Dominion, and dependent on which of Sel's nations / lands the magic comes from) Initiation Not fully clear, may depend on each region - at the very least often requires being devoted to the land or nation or organisation which typically has access to the abilities, and being devoted to trying to dominate the skill via practice Usage Producing the right shapes or patterns, corresponding to the land where the magic originates  Scadrial (Ruin and Preservation) Allomancy (Preservation) Initiation Possessing the right family line which preserves the trait, and suffering aggressive and brutal punishment or pain (i.e. someone trying to ruin you, but Ruin isn't a part of this magic) Usage Burning a metal (... I've already mentioned how this ruins the metal) to draw power from Preservation  Feruchemy (Ruin and Preservation) Initiation Possessing the right family line which preserves the trait Usage Temporarily ruining oneself to preserve a trait to draw on later If combined with Allomancy it allows for more power to be drawn if the metal is burned, allowing Preservation's power to be accessed  Hemalurgy (Ruin) Initiation No initiation - as long as you know how to use it one can use it - raises questions on what would happen if Ruin or Scadrial were destroyed Usage wanting to steal a trait, and using a metal spike to kill someone, damaging their spirit web. The metal spike's charge will begin to decrease the longer it is out of a body, and when inserted into someone it will rip their spirit web, making holes  Roshar - planetary system (Odium, Cultivation, and Honour - Honour splintered) Surgebinding (Honour and Cultivation) Initiation By exemplifying a certain trait or code one can attract a spren associated with that code of conduct. If the spren so chooses, it can form a bond with the person who has drawn its attention, and that person can then choose to cultivate that bond by swearing and adhering to oaths Usage Drawing in stormlight and using the abilities associated with the spren  Fabrials (unknown) Initiation Capturing a spren, usually by attracting it with a trait it loves, inside a gemstone, then placing the gemstone in a device - possibly after altering the gemstone - to coax the spren into performing the desired function The Siblings form of Fabrials may be somewhat different, instead causing a spren to manifest physically Usage Applying the correct metals to the gemstone  Voidbinding (possibly Honour and Odium) (details unknown)  Old Magic (possibly Cultivation, though may involve other Shards) (details unknown)  Ashyn's disease magic (possibly Cultivation and may involve Odium) Initiation Catching a disease and cultivating it in ones body Usage So long as one is sick one can use the abilities, as soon as the immune system overcomes the disease the powers fade  Nalthis (Endowment) Awakening (Endowment) Initiation Everyone is born gifted with a single Breath from Endowment Being gifted with more Breathers from someone else - the more one has, the more benefits they receive from the amount of Breaths they have Usage Endowing one or more Breaths into an item with a command - the Breaths may later be retrieved from Awakened items so long as they weren't formerly living creatures, as otherwise the Breath becomes stuck  Returned (Endowment) Initiation Those chosen by Endowment after dying who agree to be endowed with a Divine Breath, and return to life Usage Must be endowed with a Breath each week by someone - or by alternative methods, such as stormlight Can choose to use their Divine Breath to endow healing on someone of their choosing, dying in the process  Taldain (Autonomy and/or Avatar(s) of Autonomy) Sand Mastery (one or more Avatars of Autonomy, possibly the Sand Lord - note the Sand Lord is implied to want to end Sand Mastery) Initiation Unknown Usage Forming a bond with the micro-organisms living on the sand on Dayside, temporarily controlling it by giving it water - see irony below  Darkside investiture (one or more Avatars of Autonomy - may be the same Avatar as for Sand Mastery) (details unknown)  Threnody (One or more splinters of Ambition - may or may not also be influenced by Odium and/or Mercy) Shades (splinter of Ambition - implied - and may or may not have been influenced by Odium and/or Mercy) Initiation Dying to the touch of another Shade - usually because they or someone else broke the Simple Rules Usage Being dead - compelled to attack those who break the Simple Rules, though may be able to resist for those they love  "Shade gun" (details unknown)  First of the Sun (Avatar(s) of Autonomy and / or Autonomy) Aviar (one or more Avatars of Autonomy, likely Patji) Initiation Bonding an Aviar which in turn has a parasitic worm living inside it - see irony below Usage At the discretion of the Aviar, may or may not be permanently active for some, or condition based for others - Aviar may be asked to use their abilities  Yolen (Unknown - possibly no Shard remained behind; originally the Power of Creation, though it may or may not have originally been on the planet prior to the Shattering) Microkinesis (details unknown) Lightweaving (details unknown) (Others - details not fully revealed but shown in Bridge Four sample chapters, in particular the last sample chapter. May or may not be canon.) Unknown Dawnshards (full details unknown - involves taking in the Dawnshard, one of the commands that made the Cosmere, becoming it) Aethers (details not yet cannon - physical symbiosis based) "Kite magic" (details unknown) Sel: There really is no initiation on Sel. If you are of a nationality, you can study and use that nation's system. AonDor is the exception. Yes, you need to learn to use that system. You can attribute it to Devotion. But that is circular reasoning. If you were told that Sel is home to the hypothetical Shard of Education, you'd attribute it to that. You can built and discover new shapes and combine them. You could conclude that Selish magic is from Invention. Scadrial: The system is genetic. You can literally breed an army of Allomancers. Going by that route, if the Shards had unknown distribution, you'd attribute Allomancy and Feruchemy to Cultivation. Ashyn: You are giving health for power. It would fit Harmony. Or even Ambition; you are ambitious enough to risk your life and health for power. Returned: No discernible pattern. If you did not know better, you'd suspect Whimsy. Roshar: The whole planet is showered with Investiture every few days. Endowment? Taldain: To raise your number of ribbons, you must go to the verge of death by overmastery. Ambition? Now, what I was trying to say here is that all those systems of initiation are compatible with their Shards, but none are dictated or even strongly encouraged by it. The only system that really fits its Shard is hemalurgy. But it has no initiation at all, not even knowledge. Millions of Pathians have proven that putting in their ear rings. On 5.2.2022 at 9:27 PM, Ixthos said: So, a list of possible magic systems. Valour  Initiation Showing bravery in battle Persevering despite the odds against you or the difficulty Usage Similar to Surgebinding oaths - acting in accordance with a code of conduct - so being brave. If you aren't acting bravely, the magic won't work Following a leader gives their followers abilities in the midst of some struggle - collective valour and purpose About Valour we have secondary information. Hoid knows her very well, yet has not displayed any of her arts and still sought Lightweaving. that really points to combat as a method of initiation or her powers are useless to me, all being offensive with no Lightweaving or we are wrong about this and his tremendous healing ability is the pinnacle Valourian Invested Arts On 5.2.2022 at 9:27 PM, Ixthos said: Finally, a last observation - the irony of Autonomy. There are at least two magic systems in the Cosmere related to Autonomy, being Sand Mastery and the Aviar. As mentioned above, both imply some form of bond has to be formed, and at least for Aviar, it is a three-way form. Thus the Shard associated with being oneself, of independence, is the Shard with two magic systems involving tying oneself to another creature, and either controlling it with Sand Mastery, or having a symbiotic bond with a creature (the Aviar) that has a symbiotic bond (the parasitic worm). Indeed On 5.2.2022 at 9:27 PM, Ixthos said:  Thank you for reading. What do you suppose are examples of magic systems that may show up in the Cosmere? We can go by abilities that we can deduce from performances otherwise not explained Brandon has spoken about mercenary troops. Unless their armaments are provided by aethers, this is a potential system What do the caravaneers eat and what pack animals are they using? Again, if this is not aethers then what? Darkside magic Sixteen if he's not an Elantrian Sho-Del magic Faynlife    0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2022 10 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Sel: There really is no initiation on Sel. If you are of a nationality, you can study and use that nation's system. AonDor is the exception. Yes, you need to learn to use that system. You can attribute it to Devotion. But that is circular reasoning. If you were told that Sel is home to the hypothetical Shard of Education, you'd attribute it to that. You can built and discover new shapes and combine them. You could conclude that Selish magic is from Invention. I don't believe that is confirmed - I think there is more to Sel and the Dor than is immediately obvious, and we have hardly seen all the systems on Sel, so it isn't possible to say AonDor is the exception when it may actually be the rule. Also, could you clarify why you say my explanation of why the magic being tied to Devotion is circular reasoning? Â 10 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Now, what I was trying to say here is that all those systems of initiation are compatible with their Shards, but none are dictated or even strongly encouraged by it. The only system that really fits its Shard is hemalurgy. But it has no initiation at all, not even knowledge. Millions of Pathians have proven that putting in their ear rings. Is your argument that the Shards don't influence how the magic is gained or used? If so, that seems to contradict what Brandon has said: Quote Chaos Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things? Brandon Sanderson One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited. The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift--allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy. /r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011) Therefore we can conclude that the nature of the Shard determines how the magic is accessed. Â 10 hours ago, Oltux72 said: About Valour we have secondary information. Hoid knows her very well, yet has not displayed any of her arts and still sought Lightweaving. that really points to combat as a method of initiation or her powers are useless to me, all being offensive with no Lightweaving or we are wrong about this and his tremendous healing ability is the pinnacle Valourian Invested Arts Hoid likely has many more powers than we have seen. It is likely he already has access investiture originating from her in at least one form, or is still seeking to access it. We can't assume that because we haven't seen him use any magic associated with her - or identified his use of magic associated with her - that he doesn't have access to her magic. Â 11 hours ago, Oltux72 said: We can go by abilities that we can deduce from performances otherwise not explained Brandon has spoken about mercenary troops. Unless their armaments are provided by aethers, this is a potential system What do the caravaneers eat and what pack animals are they using? Again, if this is not aethers then what? Darkside magic Sixteen if he's not an Elantrian Sho-Del magic Faynlife Personally I like the idea of the mercenaries being from Threnody as the ultimate Hazekillers. I'm afraid I'm not following - which caravaneers? Otherwise agreed. Â 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted February 12, 2022 Report Share Posted February 12, 2022 14 hours ago, Ixthos said: I don't believe that is confirmed - I think there is more to Sel and the Dor than is immediately obvious, and we have hardly seen all the systems on Sel, so it isn't possible to say AonDor is the exception when it may actually be the rule. Also, could you clarify why you say my explanation of why the magic being tied to Devotion is circular reasoning? Â Is your argument that the Shards don't influence how the magic is gained or used? If so, that seems to contradict what Brandon has said: Therefore we can conclude that the nature of the Shard determines how the magic is accessed. Well, no. The WoB tells us that the Shard influences how a magic is obtained, not that it determines how it is obtained. That is a difference. Now, if I were to give you Hemalurgy and Allomancy and ask you to associate them with Ruin and Preservation, you'd be right. However, if I gave you Hemalurgy and Feruchemy, you'd make the same associations. In fact people have always argued that Feruchemy should be Preservation's system and Allomancy the shared system. Hence you see that a Shard's Intent has no predictive power. It does, however, rule out some associations. You can make negative predictions. In that sense when we associate Shards with initiations we pick attributes of those methods. The choice among the aspects of those methods we make according to the prior knowledge of the Shards. Hence this is circular reasoning. 14 hours ago, Ixthos said: Â Personally I like the idea of the mercenaries being from Threnody as the ultimate Hazekillers. Chronologically unlikely. The epoche of the Forests of Hell is a small episode in Threnody's history. By the time of Stormlight Archive they have already advanced considerably and by Secret History the Evil had not yet arrived. 14 hours ago, Ixthos said: I'm afraid I'm not following - which caravaneers? The traders in Shadesmar. In Rhythm of War they are forced to spend precious Stormlight on the basic necessity of food and water. If the caravans operated on the same principle, they would not make economic sense. Â 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted February 12, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2022 2 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Well, no. The WoB tells us that the Shard influences how a magic is obtained, not that it determines how it is obtained. That is a difference. Now, if I were to give you Hemalurgy and Allomancy and ask you to associate them with Ruin and Preservation, you'd be right. However, if I gave you Hemalurgy and Feruchemy, you'd make the same associations. In fact people have always argued that Feruchemy should be Preservation's system and Allomancy the shared system. Hence you see that a Shard's Intent has no predictive power. It does, however, rule out some associations. You can make negative predictions. In that sense when we associate Shards with initiations we pick attributes of those methods. The choice among the aspects of those methods we make according to the prior knowledge of the Shards. Hence this is circular reasoning. No, the quote actually says, "The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do." This definitively states it controls how the magic is accessed, not influencing but actively determining. There is no implication that the Shard is merely an influence, but a direct statement that its role is to set the manner of access. Indeed, by implication the only function the Shards have is setting the manner of access, as the power flows from the Shard and is thus strongly connected with its Intent. The Shards intent is fully predictive of the nature of the magic - again, look at Roshar, where the swearing of oaths, the very definition of someone being honourable being the keeping of oaths, being foundational. Oaths that cultivate a bond, Honour and Cultivation. Breaths are only ever endowed, etc.  3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Chronologically unlikely. The epoche of the Forests of Hell is a small episode in Threnody's history. By the time of Stormlight Archive they have already advanced considerably and by Secret History the Evil had not yet arrived. I don't see what baring that has on the idea of them being the ultimate Hazekillers. Also, could you source that info on when Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell is set? Do we know when the mercenaries are due to show up? (Though it occurs to me my statement is somewhat ambigious, so to clear up what I mean in case that is the issue - I use the term Hazekiller as the generic term for someone, usually uninvested themselves, trained to take down those who are invested. This isn't to say they are the origin or continuation of the original Mistborn Hazekillers, only the same principles idea, as shown likewise in Rhythm of War with the team who almost breached to the Crystal Pillar - ordinary humans with only their training, some equipment, and each other against a group of invested beings, and who almost won.)   3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: The traders in Shadesmar. In Rhythm of War they are forced to spend precious Stormlight on the basic necessity of food and water. If the caravans operated on the same principle, they would not make economic sense. Ahhh, I'd forgotten about them. Thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 (edited) I am not sure the caravans' life support, by Stormlight Archive era, necessarily has to be magical. It seems that cooling is enough to collect water in Shadesmar; by Stormlight era, especially if Taldain is no longer cut off, that might be done technologically. Food could be stored, maybe - I don't know how long the journeys are. On 2/12/2022 at 10:47 AM, Ixthos said: No, the quote actually says, "The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do."Â This definitively states it controls how the magic is accessed, not influencing but actively determining. There is no implication that the Shard is merely an influence, but a direct statement that its role is to set the manner of access. Yes, that's how I read it too. Some Shards have a very obvious connection - e.g. for Surgebinding, Oaths are obviously of Honor, the personal growth aspect is less direct but still connects to Cultivation; Hemalurgy involves gaining power (with loss/entropy) by killing (destroying) others, which is obviously of Ruin - while others are more indirect. But I think the less direct ones are either because we don't know enough about the mechanism (how are people chosen by the Shaod? what determines Sand Mastery power?) or because the Shard's intent is "static" enough that the mechanism is not going to be super obvious (Preservation and possibly Autonomy). Edited February 17, 2022 by cometaryorbit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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