One Tinsy Little Problem With Allomantic Pewter

[Trusk'our]

When someone burns Allomantic pewter, they get a handful of physical enhancements. The most notable of these being an increase in physical strength. Your strength is increased based on what your strength is without an enhancement; all your muscles are equally enhanced, so more muscle means more strength.

But, wouldn’t you need more investiture, more energy, to enhance more total muscle mass?

(By the way, this post is based on how I understand Allomantic pewter, and I could be wrong, so if I'm incorrect please don't hesitate to tell me.)

Okay, let’s say there’s a Pewterarm who relies on their power too much and doesn’t work out. They can only bench press 100 lbs. without any enhancement, and they can bench press 200 lbs. while burning pewter without flaring. There’s another Pewterarm of equal Allomantic power who is a bodybuilder, and they can bench press 300 lbs. without any enhancement, and can then bench press 600 lbs. while burning pewter without flaring. Even though both Pewterarms are of equal Allomantic strength, one is clearly getting a far greater energy output from their Allomancy.

So, what the heck is going on? Energy can’t just appear out of nowhere, so where is it coming from?

Is a Pewterarm with bigger muscles simply more efficient than a Pewterarm with weaker muscles, similar to how Radiants who are of a higher oath are more investiture efficient than lower oath Radiants?

Are the Pewterarms with bigger muscles somehow drawing in more investiture than other Pewterarms?

I'm just a little confused as to how Pewterarms are doubling or tripling their strength seemingly without any extra investiture.

[Halyo_Alex]

Actually, if I’m not mistaken you’ve got it backwards; I remember Kelsier saying something to Vin about how she gets more out of Pewter because the flat amount of boost is concentrated inside her smaller, less muscular body. More energy-dense. 

[Kandrafish]

9 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

When someone burns Allomantic pewter, they get a handful of physical enhancements. The most notable of these being an increase in physical strength. Your strength is increased based on what your strength is without an enhancement; all your muscles are equally enhanced, so more muscle means more strength.

But, wouldn’t you need more investiture, more energy, to enhance more total muscle mass?

I have always seen it as someone with smaller muscles having a higher density of enhancement and someone with bigger muscles have a lower density. They both get the same enhancement. There is a quote where Ham is talking to Vin and he suggests that being smaller and lighter might be better for being a pewterarm since Vin can jump much higher. This implied to me that Ham has X strength and Vin has Y strength and both have X+Z and Y+Z strength, respectively, when burning pewter

(By the way, this post is based on how I understand Allomantic pewter, and I could be wrong, so if I'm incorrect please don't hesitate to tell me.)

Okay, let’s say there’s a Pewterarm who relies on their power too much and doesn’t work out. They can only bench press 100 lbs. without any enhancement, and they can bench press 200 lbs. while burning pewter without flaring. There’s another Pewterarm of equal Allomantic power who is a bodybuilder, and they can bench press 300 lbs. without any enhancement, and can then bench press 600 lbs. while burning pewter without flaring. Even though both Pewterarms are of equal Allomantic strength, one is clearly getting a far greater energy output from their Allomancy.

So, here I would see it as 100 lbs +100 lbs and 200 lbs +100 lbs

So, what the heck is going on? Energy can’t just appear out of nowhere, so where is it coming from?

Is a Pewterarm with bigger muscles simply more efficient than a Pewterarm with weaker muscles, similar to how Radiants who are of a higher oath are more investiture efficient than lower oath Radiants?

Are the Pewterarms with bigger muscles somehow drawing in more investiture than other Pewterarms?

I'm just a little confused as to how Pewterarms are doubling or tripling their strength seemingly without any extra investiture.

I think it is kind of the opposite. Pewterarms that are weaker are getting a bigger proportional advantage, I think.

 

[HSuperLee]

As the two above me said, it really comes down to a-pewter being additive rather than multiplicative. You can think of it this way, when two traditional (eg. big and muscular) pewterarms clash, they are both getting the same boost from pewter, so it effectively cancels itself out and the fight goes the same way as it would if the two pewterarms were fighting without magic. In that case being as big and muscular as possible is an advantage because once the magic is effectively canceled out, being big and muscular is a huge advantage in a fight. Small tangent that I've spoiler-ed for convenience:

Spoiler

I mean people seriously underestimate how much of an advantage even a small difference of strength and size is in a fight. It takes a huge amount of skill and technique to overcome even a mild disadvantage in strength. Raw strength alone is huge.

Where Vin threw a monkey-wrench into this system where pewterarms basically negate each others powers by balancing them out is in how different her build is than the tradition pewterarm. Where the primary advantage they got out of pewter was strength, Vin got far more out of speed than they did by virtue of getting the same strength boost, but having so much less weight to actually move. If she tried to arm wrestle another pewterarm, she'd lose every time. But in an actual fight, especially when mistborn learn to fight based on having superior mobility to their opponents, then Vin threw the standard pewterarm playbook out the window.

This is also why I think one of the most terrifying twinborn to have to fight would be someone with f-iron a-pewter. It would be like fighting a scaled up insect, where their strength to weight ratio could be so high that they're able to leap over buildings. Or they could go the other direction, and make themselves virtually immovable. And they could do either while being as strong as a bull.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I feel like pewter is one that the MAG does a pretty good job showcasing lining up with how I pictured it on screen.   Again going off of what Ham and Kelsier both show with Vin.  Her base physique may be lower so the pewter itself is a much more significant boost. 

In game it is posed as your physique + rating = new physique.  If you have someone with a 6 for their physique and a rating of 4 then they are just gaining 66% of their normal abilities.  Someone with a 4 base physique and that same rating of 4 would be getting a 100% increase to what they had.  Someone with a 3 physique and a 6 rating would gain 200% increase. 

I figure the smaller frame allows you to get a lot more from the pewter because that is only up against what you already had.  

All of this said physique is not just strength and takes all physical attributes as part of it.  A steel runner in game effects his physique just as pewter does so speed, strength, dexterity and even agility all fit into that bubble.  

The MAG isn't cannon by any stretch but I feel like the rating system added onto a persons base physique is a good illustration of the bonuses that some get vs others.  Its not that Vin was outright stronger than Ham or Kelsier when burning pewter but by the same token by the end of era 1 I would imagine Vin was nearing savant levels with pewter which would explain even if she could beat Ham in an arm wrestling contest.  Not to mention any resonances that come from being a full mistborn vs just a thug that are still RAFO.  

[AquaRegia]

My intention is not to muddy the waters... but it seems to me that there is another factor nobody has considered: the RATE at which your Allomancy consumes Investiture.

Is it possible that a small person, like Vin, "cashes in" the pewter benefit at a lower rate than a more massive person?  Maybe the small person can, given the same amount of pewter, burn it twice as long.  The ability multipliers may scale for both strength AND time.

[Frustration]

Actually buring pewter will double your strength

Spoiler

Sandastron

I’m very curious about pewter. How much Feruchemical pewter, steel, and gold would you have to take in in order to be equal to burning pewter and flaring.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh…um, okay. So you wanna...ok, let’s back this up. So you wanna know feruchemically what would it take to match burning?

Sandastron

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay. So burning pewter, I kind of imagine...roughly doubling. Roughly.

Sandastron

Double your strength?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But without the muscle mass change, it’s a magical boost. So because of that it has some pretty dramatic effects, like when Vin jumps and things like that.

Sandastron

So it’s only a double, so would flaring it bring it any higher?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Flaring would go higher.

Sandastron

Would it be like triple?

Brandon Sanderson

Maybe like triple.

Sandastron

Maybe like tripling...that’s fascinating. So I always thought normal burning would triple it and flaring would quadruple.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah I always felt kind of double. You won’t see people burning pewter and lifting a car.

Sandastron

Right, exactly.

Brandon Sanderson

You see people burning pewter and delivering a really solid punch.

Sandastron

Gotcha, thank you. That is fascinating…and would it be about doubling speed and healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven’t worked out the numbers on that exactly. I have an instinct that says thatburning pewter, healing goes a bit faster but I have to look in the books and see what we’ve done in the past and then kind of canonize it.

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

The reason for two people of different physical strengths having a different boost is likely just the way the system works,pewter is burned, investiture flows through it, and it comes in and doubles muscle strength.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Actually buring pewter will double your strength

  Hide contents

Sandastron

I’m very curious about pewter. How much Feruchemical pewter, steel, and gold would you have to take in in order to be equal to burning pewter and flaring.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh…um, okay. So you wanna...ok, let’s back this up. So you wanna know feruchemically what would it take to match burning?

Sandastron

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay. So burning pewter, I kind of imagine...roughly doubling. Roughly.

Sandastron

Double your strength?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But without the muscle mass change, it’s a magical boost. So because of that it has some pretty dramatic effects, like when Vin jumps and things like that.

Sandastron

So it’s only a double, so would flaring it bring it any higher?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Flaring would go higher.

Sandastron

Would it be like triple?

Brandon Sanderson

Maybe like triple.

Sandastron

Maybe like tripling...that’s fascinating. So I always thought normal burning would triple it and flaring would quadruple.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah I always felt kind of double. You won’t see people burning pewter and lifting a car.

Sandastron

Right, exactly.

Brandon Sanderson

You see people burning pewter and delivering a really solid punch.

Sandastron

Gotcha, thank you. That is fascinating…and would it be about doubling speed and healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven’t worked out the numbers on that exactly. I have an instinct that says thatburning pewter, healing goes a bit faster but I have to look in the books and see what we’ve done in the past and then kind of canonize it.

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

The reason for two people of different physical strengths having a different boost is likely just the way the system works,pewter is burned, investiture flows through it, and it comes in and doubles muscle strength.

I am sort of confused by this as on screen it is mentioned a couple times that Vin gets more out of pewter than others due to her small size.  Yet we see her heaving around kolos blades and still moving fluidly that kolos that are far more than double her size use.  I figured additive answered it a lot better than if it was just multiplying strength by X.  If Ham is able to lift double what Vin is and they both burn pewter I guess he is able to always lift double.  

So if a 1kilo deadlift is possible from the world's strongest man and he burns pewter he can deadlift 2k where as a small person who can deadlift 150lbs can only deadlift 300lbs.  Seems the WOB runs a bit against what we have seen on screen.  Then again I get a feeling that Brandon isn't super happy about mistborn era 1 being used to figure out the rules anyway.  

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Actually buring pewter will double your strength

  Reveal hidden contents

Sandastron

I’m very curious about pewter. How much Feruchemical pewter, steel, and gold would you have to take in in order to be equal to burning pewter and flaring.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh…um, okay. So you wanna...ok, let’s back this up. So you wanna know feruchemically what would it take to match burning?

Sandastron

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay. So burning pewter, I kind of imagine...roughly doubling. Roughly.

Sandastron

Double your strength?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But without the muscle mass change, it’s a magical boost. So because of that it has some pretty dramatic effects, like when Vin jumps and things like that.

Sandastron

So it’s only a double, so would flaring it bring it any higher?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Flaring would go higher.

Sandastron

Would it be like triple?

Brandon Sanderson

Maybe like triple.

Sandastron

Maybe like tripling...that’s fascinating. So I always thought normal burning would triple it and flaring would quadruple.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah I always felt kind of double. You won’t see people burning pewter and lifting a car.

Sandastron

Right, exactly.

Brandon Sanderson

You see people burning pewter and delivering a really solid punch.

Sandastron

Gotcha, thank you. That is fascinating…and would it be about doubling speed and healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven’t worked out the numbers on that exactly. I have an instinct that says thatburning pewter, healing goes a bit faster but I have to look in the books and see what we’ve done in the past and then kind of canonize it.

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

The reason for two people of different physical strengths having a different boost is likely just the way the system works,pewter is burned, investiture flows through it, and it comes in and doubles muscle strength.

Books are canon above WoB's, and the books explicitly state that Pewter is additive, not multiplicative:

Quote

After all, a muscular man burning pewter will be that much stronger than a regular man of the same allomantic power. -Ham, ch. 6 p. 80 WoA

In case that quote is to ambiguous, the way the magic system works in the book is also clearly additive. Vin was able to leap higher and was much more agile than Ham while both of them burned pewter. If Ham got something like 2-5 times as much strength as Vin, there would be little to no difference in their agility as they would both get the same relative strength.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Nameless

[Frustration]

46 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Books are canon above WoB's, and the books explicitly state that Pewter is additive, not multiplicative:

In case that quote is to ambiguous, the way the magic system works in the book is also clearly additive. Vin was able to leap higher and was much more agile than Ham while both of them burned pewter. If Ham got something like 2-5 times as much strength as Vin, there would be little to no difference in their agility as they would both get the same relative strength.

Vin is also much more powerful than Ham is.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Vin is also much more powerful than Ham is.

No, she isn't. She is probably more powerful than Ham, but she is not immediately noticeable as abnormally strong, meaning that she is probably something like 1.1-1.5 times stronger.

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, Nameless said:

No, she isn't. She is probably more powerful than Ham, but she is not immediately noticeable as abnormally strong, meaning that she is probably something like 1.1-1.5 times stronger.

On the contrary She's pretty powerful

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Vin is more powerful than Kelsier. That's what I'm trying to imply by the scene of her and Kelsier in the hole. And, for one little more quip, I like the fact that Kelsier walks straight forward and says "I need no password." Which, if you think about it, is the opposite of what he told the soldiers last time he visited the caves–he told them they couldn’t even let him out, if he didn't have proper authorization. Ah, Kelsier. . ..

Mistborn: The Final Empire Annotations (Feb. 26, 2007)

 

Brandon Sanderson

The Sliding Scale of Allomantic Potential

Noblemen, despite what Spook says in this chapter, are not immune to the mistsickness. The rumor Spook is referencing does have merit, however. You see, since the mists are Snapping people and awakening the Allomantic potential within them, it will affect far fewer noblemen than skaa. Why? Because a lot of the noblemen have already Snapped. They were beaten as children to bring out the powers.

However, that won't stop all of them from being affected by the mistsickness, because the mistsickness is also awakening Allomantic potential that would otherwise be too subtle to be brought out. Pretend there's a sliding scale of Allomantic potential. 100% means you're an Allomancer—in this series, only two people have hit 100%—Vin and Elend. Buried within a lot of people, however, is enough of a touch of Preservation's power to hit, say, 50% on the relative scale of Allomantic power. These people, when beaten and made to pass through something traumatic, awaken to their Allomantic abilities.

There are a lot of people out there, however, with something more like 20% to 30%. These are the people the mists are Snapping—since the mists are, themselves, partially the power of Preservation, they can touch people and increase their Allomantic potential slightly and then bring it to the forefront.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Dec. 29, 2009)

 

 

[cometaryorbit]

I think it is additive, the 'double strength, triple if flaring' WoB likely means that the added strength is about equal to that of a reasonably strong normal human, or twice that if flaring. 

Normally being naturally strong is better since if you are stronger to start with and both people get the same addition*, you are still stronger after the addition.

But since Vin is small, when she adds on a regular sized person's strength x2 when flaring (plus a bit more since her allomantic strength is high) she is still only moving her own small mass - thus the pewter jump she does when training with Ham.

*while Allomantic strength does vary, it seems to be a pretty small variation excluding things like lerasium and Hemalurgy.

EDIT: yes, Vin is clearly stronger than the average Allomancer (according to the HoA epigraphs, apparently due to absorbing small bits of the Mists). But maybe not by all that much, the normal variation in strength seems quite small.

And in HoA she is clearly weaker in raw power than Elend (though way more skilled). I think the "100%" WoB is more about how she was born Snapped, since it is talking about actualizing the Allomantic potential- both Vin and Elend didn't Snap the usual way.

Edited January 31, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

On the contrary She's pretty powerful

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Vin is more powerful than Kelsier. That's what I'm trying to imply by the scene of her and Kelsier in the hole. And, for one little more quip, I like the fact that Kelsier walks straight forward and says "I need no password." Which, if you think about it, is the opposite of what he told the soldiers last time he visited the caves–he told them they couldn’t even let him out, if he didn't have proper authorization. Ah, Kelsier. . ..

Mistborn: The Final Empire Annotations (Feb. 26, 2007)

 

Brandon Sanderson

The Sliding Scale of Allomantic Potential

Noblemen, despite what Spook says in this chapter, are not immune to the mistsickness. The rumor Spook is referencing does have merit, however. You see, since the mists are Snapping people and awakening the Allomantic potential within them, it will affect far fewer noblemen than skaa. Why? Because a lot of the noblemen have already Snapped. They were beaten as children to bring out the powers.

However, that won't stop all of them from being affected by the mistsickness, because the mistsickness is also awakening Allomantic potential that would otherwise be too subtle to be brought out. Pretend there's a sliding scale of Allomantic potential. 100% means you're an Allomancer—in this series, only two people have hit 100%—Vin and Elend. Buried within a lot of people, however, is enough of a touch of Preservation's power to hit, say, 50% on the relative scale of Allomantic power. These people, when beaten and made to pass through something traumatic, awaken to their Allomantic abilities.

There are a lot of people out there, however, with something more like 20% to 30%. These are the people the mists are Snapping—since the mists are, themselves, partially the power of Preservation, they can touch people and increase their Allomantic potential slightly and then bring it to the forefront.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Dec. 29, 2009)

 

If she was twice as strong as Kelsier, it would have been immediately obvious to literally everyone she ever got into an allomantic fight with. She's slightly stronger than the average allomancer of the time, but within reasonable limits. She's not a lerasium mistborn. Brandon saying Vin is at 100% on the allomantic power scale means nothing, because for all we know the average could be 75%

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

If she was twice as strong as Kelsier, it would have been immediately obvious to literally everyone she ever got into an allomantic fight with. She's slightly stronger than the average allomancer of the time, but within reasonable limits. She's not a lerasium mistborn. Brandon saying Vin is at 100% on the allomantic power scale means nothing, because for all we know the average could be 75%

He notes Elend is 100, and most mistings are 50.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

He notes Elend is 100, and most mistings are 50.

So Vin and Elend are equal in power? No. The books clearly show that Elend is vastly more powerful than Vin. Brandon is not giving an accurate powerscaling statement here, he's making the point that the amount of allomantic power you have changes the difficulty of snapping. The numbers are not accurate.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

So Vin and Elend are equal in power? No. The books clearly show that Elend is vastly more powerful than Vin. Brandon is not giving an accurate powerscaling statement here, he's making the point that the amount of allomantic power you have changes the difficulty of snapping. The numbers are not accurate.

The point being she's connected enough to Preservation she doesn't need to snap.

That doesn't come without additional benefits.

[cometaryorbit]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

He notes Elend is 100, and most mistings are 50.

The annotation is titled "the sliding scale of allomantic potential", not "power". I think the difference is important, because from the text Elend clearly has significantly more raw power than Vin.

I think that annotation is basically distinguishing three groups:

- not Snapped normally ("100%") - Vin born Snapped, Elend through lerasium

- normal Allomancers, who Snap through mundane trauma in later childhood through adulthood ("50%")

-those who have insufficient potential to Snap from mundane trauma, but can be Snapped by the Mists ("20-30%")

Otherwise we'd have to argue that Vin is not only as strong as Elend but even as strong as TLR since 100% is the maximum...

[cometaryorbit]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

The point being she's connected enough to Preservation she doesn't need to snap.

That doesn't come without additional benefits.

I am not sure this is strictly a matter of Connection. Kelsier is strongly connected to Ruin and weakly to Preservation, from Secret History: that doesn't make him an unusually weak Mistborn.

Vin was born Snapped, but the epigraphs suggest she got unusual allomantic strength from breathing in bits of mist during times without her earring, so she wasn't necessarily born stronger than the average Mistborn.

(Vin's ability to breathe in the Mists does seem to be a special Connection to Preservation. But I don't think it's as simple as stronger Connection = more Allomantic power.)

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

The point being she's connected enough to Preservation she doesn't need to snap.

That doesn't come without additional benefits.

Look at it this way: say Vin is at 100%. Normal allomancers are at 75%. Vin is 1.333333333333333... times stronger than the average allomancer. That matches with the books. She's strong enough that it is noticeable in a steelpush competition, but not enough that most people recognize it easily. It does not give her the ability to outperform Ham, who is at minimum twice as strong as she is.

this point is still irrelevant, because the books confirm that strength due to A-pewter is additive. I gave the quote directly from the book. Here's another one:

Quote

Vin's a little thing, but when she burns pewter, she grows several times stronger than any normal warrior. -Ham Ch. 6 P. 80

This quote directly contradicts the WoB. "several times" means more than double. If it was multiplicative, that would mean Vin would have to be getting her strength multiplied by 6-10 times, assuming she's half the strength of a normal soldier. Then Elend comes along. Assuming he's something like 2-3 times as strong as Vin, He's now 12-20 times as strong as the average warrior on the low end, 18-30 times on the high end. Doesn't add up? That's because it's additive, not multiplicative.

[KnightsOfHonor]

I think all allomancy is additive. If it were multiplicative it would not work. For example, if we doubled the amount a normal person can push off of steal with their mind we would get zero (0×2=0). So allomancy can't be multiplicative because if it was, most of the traits would be getting multiplied by zero. I think what Brandon was saying was it adds up (additive) to roughly double the strength of a normal person. It just happens to be about double, it is not actually doubling the given strength of an individual. I also think he was talking about potential in the whole 50% 100% comment. Meaning that most people only practice and achieve 50% of what they could. Like most people in real life never reach 100% of what they are genetically capable of reaching. They could work out and get stronger. So both Vin and Elend reach 100% of their potential but there potentials are just different. I could work out and reach 100% of my genetic limit of how strong I can get and still be weaker than someone else because they have better genetics for strength. 

Feruchemy on the other hand seems to be multiplicative. That is why you have to have the trait to begin with (strength, speed, sight etc.) So you can never get steel push with it because you have zero to start out with (also can't save up what you don't have).

(So could a twin or Fullborn "save up" allomantic powers with feruchemy and be able to use those powers later without needing to burn metal at the time and/or use them in a bigger burst than allomancy will allow?)

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, KnightsOfHonor said:

I think all allomancy is additive. If it were multiplicative it would not work. For example, if we doubled the amount a normal person can push off of steal with their mind we would get zero (0×2=0). So allomancy can't be multiplicative because if it was, most of the traits would be getting multiplied by zero. I think what Brandon was saying was it adds up (additive) to roughly double the strength of a normal person. It just happens to be about double, it is not actually doubling the given strength of an individual. I also think he was talking about potential in the whole 50% 100% comment. Meaning that most people only practice and achieve 50% of what they could. Like most people in real life never reach 100% of what they are genetically capable of reaching. They could work out and get stronger. So both Vin and Elend reach 100% of their potential but there potentials are just different. I could work out and reach 100% of my genetic limit of how strong I can get and still be weaker than someone else because they have better genetics for strength. 

Feruchemy on the other hand seems to be multiplicative. That is why you have to have the trait to begin with (strength, speed, sight etc.) So you can never get steel push with it because you have zero to start out with (also can't save up what you don't have).

(So could a twin or Fullborn "save up" allomantic powers with feruchemy and be able to use those powers later without needing to burn metal at the time and/or use them in a bigger burst than allomancy will allow?)

I like the comparison to feruchemy to demonstrate multiplicatice vs additive.  It makes perfect sense in that case and helps make sense of both the WOB and the text.  

[Trusk'our]

On 2/2/2022 at 1:39 PM, KnightsOfHonor said:

(So could a twin or Fullborn "save up" allomantic powers with feruchemy and be able to use those powers later without needing to burn metal at the time and/or use them in a bigger burst than allomancy will allow?)

It may be possible to do this, because when the Lord Ruler lost his metalminds, he didn't use any of his other powers to quickly retrieve them and continue to tap his Atiumminds. Which is kind of weird to me, because even if he was rapidly aging, Allomantic pewter or iron could have been really useful in that situation. But he didn't use them, possibly indicating that he stored his Allomantic stores in those Metalminds as well, and he didn't have any metals to burn in his system once his bracers were pulled away from him.

So, it could have been that there were other factors at play, but I think that it may be possible to do as you suggest.

[HSuperLee]

12 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

It may be possible to do this, because when the Lord Ruler lost his metalminds, he didn't use any of his other powers to quickly retrieve them and continue to tap his Atiumminds. Which is kind of weird to me, because even if he was rapidly aging, Allomantic pewter or iron could have been really useful in that situation. But he didn't use them, possibly indicating that he stored his Allomantic stores in those Metalminds as well, and he didn't have any metals to burn in his system once his bracers were pulled away from him.

So, it could have been that there were other factors at play, but I think that it may be possible to do as you suggest.

The Lord Ruler is a really weird case. I kind of think that he reached a point where he actually couldn't quickly deal with unexpected situations. His thinking had just become too habitual and stagnant. In a way, he was way too close to Preservation. He believed it was possible for things to not change and thus reached a point where he didn't change himself. I think we often underestimate just how broken of a man Rashek was. Sure, he could have all the powers of a physical god and have theoretically been invincible, but ultimately, I don't know that he even had any passion for living by the end of his life. He just continued to do it out of habit.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

The Lord Ruler is a really weird case. I kind of think that he reached a point where he actually couldn't quickly deal with unexpected situations. His thinking had just become too habitual and stagnant. In a way, he was way too close to Preservation. He believed it was possible for things to not change and thus reached a point where he didn't change himself. I think we often underestimate just how broken of a man Rashek was. Sure, he could have all the powers of a physical god and have theoretically been invincible, but ultimately, I don't know that he even had any passion for living by the end of his life. He just continued to do it out of habit.

I have often said that I thought he actually anticipated the moment that he would die.  He wasn't willing to do it to himself but perhaps spread a rumor about an extra metal to one day have someone put him out of his mortal hell.  I only refer to it as that because I know I for one would feel I was in hell if I were carrying the weight of the world on my shoulders. 

If he died and there wasn't a group strong enough and clever enough left on the earth then ruin would win it all.  Despite being surrounded by a millenias worth of generations of people who lived in fear of him and quite often tried to kill him... he still loved that world and still felt the weight of knowing what he was locking away and protecting the people from.  I don't think he cared too much about being immortal past that.  I am sure it had its perks but everyone he ever got close to died or tried to kill him.  Noone knew why he was necessary and that is a big big weight.  

I think the home could have easily snapped Vin in half but in that moment decided she was the one who would now have to carry all of those burdens.  Rashek was tired and old.  No matter how much atium you compound, its him and his kandra.  Heck he had to watch his creations become slaves to a contract because his "friends" (and their offspring) he entrusted allomancy to tried to wipe out the entire kandra population.   

Rashek was in over his head and did everything he could to fulfill his obligations but I agree there was no more joy in his life.  He was anxiously awaiting someone to shift his burden over to.