One Tinsy Little Problem With Allomantic Pewter

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

On 1/31/2022 at 2:19 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I am not sure this is strictly a matter of Connection. Kelsier is strongly connected to Ruin and weakly to Preservation, from Secret History: that doesn't make him an unusually weak Mistborn.

Vin was born Snapped, but the epigraphs suggest she got unusual allomantic strength from breathing in bits of mist during times without her earring, so she wasn't necessarily born stronger than the average Mistborn.

(Vin's ability to breathe in the Mists does seem to be a special Connection to Preservation. But I don't think it's as simple as stronger Connection = more Allomantic power.)

Kelsier is implied to have been Snapped directly by Preservation, so his natural Allomantic potential was probably lower. Either way, we can’t use him to figure out anything in this regard.

On 2/3/2022 at 10:11 PM, Trusk'our said:

It may be possible to do this, because when the Lord Ruler lost his metalminds, he didn't use any of his other powers to quickly retrieve them and continue to tap his Atiumminds. Which is kind of weird to me, because even if he was rapidly aging, Allomantic pewter or iron could have been really useful in that situation. But he didn't use them, possibly indicating that he stored his Allomantic stores in those Metalminds as well, and he didn't have any metals to burn in his system once his bracers were pulled away from him.

So, it could have been that there were other factors at play, but I think that it may be possible to do as you suggest.

My personal theory is that Rashek had gotten so used to tapping Zinc that he basically couldn’t think once Vin removed his metalminds.

[Trusk'our he/him]

12 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

My personal theory is that Rashek had gotten so used to tapping Zinc that he basically couldn’t think once Vin removed his metalminds.

Savantism will do that to you.

So I suppose that makes sense that he wouldn't have thought to use his Allomantic powers if that was the case.

[cometaryorbit]

I think he was likely an Atium Compounding Savant (or equivalent of savantism) and suffered some kind of shock or spiritweb damage or whatever when he lost his atiumminds. Combined with the probably extremely painful effects of super-accelerated aging, he probably wasn't in any state to do much of anything useful.

Miles in AoL says he doesn't feel pain anymore. If he got that way from Compounding Gold within a normal human lifetime, TLR probably didn't feel pain either... so he might have been in pain for the first time in 900+ years.

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/7/2022 at 8:13 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kelsier is implied to have been Snapped directly by Preservation

Kelsier says he Snapped watching Mare be killed (he mentions it a couple of times in book 1, once when he explains to Vin what Snapping is, and then later on when he thinks about the Pits more). This seems like regular Snapping due to trauma, to me.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

9 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Kelsier says he Snapped watching Mare be killed (he mentions it a couple of times in book 1, once when he explains to Vin what Snapping is, and then later on when he thinks about the Pits more). This seems like regular Snapping due to trauma, to me.

Until Secret History, yes…

“Do better, Kelsier, Preservation commanded, his voice fading. If the end comes, get them below ground. It might help. And remember . . . remember what I told you, so long ago. . . . Do what I cannot, Kelsier. . . .

SURVIVE.

The word vibrated through him, and Kelsier gasped. He knew that feeling, remembered that exact command. He’d heard that voice in the Pits. Waking him, driving him forward.”

This event occurred at the moment Kelsier snapped. Considering Kell had just spent 16 months in the Pits without snapping when being exposed to great stress is normally enough, and had not had an easy life before, and was raised a Noble so endured a beating to manifest his power, and his snapping didn’t happen immediately after Mare died (it happened after Kelsier was back in his tent), and Kelsier somehow knew he’d Snapped when normally people aren’t immediately aware… Well, let’s just say Kell’s snapping was weird before and this event makes it even more suspect.

[Kandrafish]

15 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Until Secret History, yes…

“Do better, Kelsier, Preservation commanded, his voice fading. If the end comes, get them below ground. It might help. And remember . . . remember what I told you, so long ago. . . . Do what I cannot, Kelsier. . . .

SURVIVE.

The word vibrated through him, and Kelsier gasped. He knew that feeling, remembered that exact command. He’d heard that voice in the Pits. Waking him, driving him forward.”

This event occurred at the moment Kelsier snapped. Considering Kell had just spent 16 months in the Pits without snapping when being exposed to great stress is normally enough, and had not had an easy life before, and was raised a Noble so endured a beating to manifest his power, and his snapping didn’t happen immediately after Mare died (it happened after Kelsier was back in his tent), and Kelsier somehow knew he’d Snapped when normally people aren’t immediately aware… Well, let’s just say Kell’s snapping was weird before and this event makes it even more suspect.

This does sound very much like Preservation (AKA Fuzz) commanded Kelsier to do this.

Warbreaker Spoilers

Spoiler

It seems a little bit reminiscent of Vasher commanding the doll at the start of Warbreaker. Investiture was given with Command and Intent.

The intent was for Kelsier to Survive (with some other thoughts included as well). 

Spoiler

But, just as Breath has the side effect of making objects behave more life like (i.e. cloth sheets looking like hands),

the survive command from Preservation probably gave allomancy as a side effect.

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/12/2022 at 11:46 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

SURVIVE.

The word vibrated through him, and Kelsier gasped. He knew that feeling, remembered that exact command. He’d heard that voice in the Pits. Waking him, driving him forward.”

This event occurred at the moment Kelsier snapped.

Hmm, see, I read that differently. I thought the idea was that that voice kept him going when he was actually working in the Pits, before he Snapped... keeping him from giving up & dying.

Once Mare died he was motivated by revenge. His intent at that point was less "Survive" and more "kill all the soldiers and nobles" (IIRC he killed all the guards and all nobles within ten miles).

On 2/12/2022 at 11:46 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

his snapping didn’t happen immediately after Mare died (it happened after Kelsier was back in his tent), and Kelsier somehow knew he’d Snapped when normally people aren’t immediately aware…

Hmm, I thought he literally Snapped watching Mare die.

Knowing immediately didn't seem that surprising to me since we are told that that part of the Central Dominance has lots of metal in the ground (which helped hide the kandra Trust of atium from Ruin) so he probably would have felt trace metal reserves (like Vin did before she knew she was an Allomancer... but Kelsier knew enough about Allomancy, from Mare and Marsh, that he would have immediately realized what was happening).

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

8 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm, see, I read that differently. I thought the idea was that that voice kept him going when he was actually working in the Pits, before he Snapped... keeping him from giving up & dying.

Once Mare died he was motivated by revenge. His intent at that point was less "Survive" and more "kill all the soldiers and nobles" (IIRC he killed all the guards and all nobles within ten miles).

Hmm, I thought he literally Snapped watching Mare die.

Knowing immediately didn't seem that surprising to me since we are told that that part of the Central Dominance has lots of metal in the ground (which helped hide the kandra Trust of atium from Ruin) so he probably would have felt trace metal reserves (like Vin did before she knew she was an Allomancer... but Kelsier knew enough about Allomancy, from Mare and Marsh, that he would have immediately realized what was happening).

RoboChrist

Did Kelsier really hear Preservation's voice telling him to Survive when he was in the pits of Hathsin? Or was it Ruin pretending to be Preservation?

If it was Preservation, does that mean Kelsier died in the pits? Or were there special circumstances that allowed Kelsier to hear Preservation's voice without dying?

Brandon Sanderson

Special things often happen in the cosmere when someone is very close to death, or undergoing intense pain (either physical or emotional.) Barriers between the realms weaken.

This indicates, at least to me, that that event occurred when Kelsier Snapped. It was a specific moment, not a general thing.

Brandon Sanderson

The Venture-atium connection is something I wish I could have foreshadowed a little bit better. However, without Elend being a viewpoint until this chapter (the reasons for which I'll explain in a bit) there really wasn't much I could do to connect Venture and the Pits.

By the way, the "something a few years ago" that Elend mentions happening to disturb the atium production was Kelsier, the Survivor of Hathsin, Snapping and coming to an awakening of his powers–then bursting out of his hut and slaughtering every soldier or nobleman within ten miles of the Pits.
 

Kelsier snapped in his tent AFTER Mare was killed, not during the actual incident.

[cometaryorbit]

13 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

This indicates, at least to me, that that event occurred when Kelsier Snapped. It was a specific moment, not a general thing.

Kelsier was "very close to death" during his stay in the Pits. I agree it was a specific moment, but I'd think it's at least as likely to be when he was about to give up and die (Kelsier refers to it in his thoughts when visiting the caverns where the rebel army is hidden & the entrance reminds him of the Pits).

That experience seems to me the more appropriate time for the "SURVIVE" intent to be what helped him. When he actually Snapped, it was more "Get revenge".

Kelsier describes it as being Mare's death itself that Snapped him. I don't think the "bursting out of his hut" quote necessarily implies something different - he could have gone back to plan his attack/escape, or maybe it took him a little while to realize he had Snapped.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Kelsier was "very close to death" during his stay in the Pits. I agree it was a specific moment, but I'd think it's at least as likely to be when he was about to give up and die (Kelsier refers to it in his thoughts when visiting the caverns where the rebel army is hidden & the entrance reminds him of the Pits).

That experience seems to me the more appropriate time for the "SURVIVE" intent to be what helped him. When he actually Snapped, it was more "Get revenge".

Kelsier describes it as being Mare's death itself that Snapped him. I don't think the "bursting out of his hut" quote necessarily implies something different - he could have gone back to plan his attack/escape, or maybe it took him a little while to realize he had Snapped.

The moment when Kelsier was about to give up was the moment when Mare died. Until that moment he had something to fight for. He didn’t immediately go to revenge; he actually spent a considerable length of time numb afterwards. It wasn’t until the events at Keep Shezler that he started thinking about revenge.

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/14/2022 at 6:08 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The moment when Kelsier was about to give up was the moment when Mare died. Until that moment he had something to fight for.

I will have to find the quote I was thinking of... I am pretty sure he nearly gave up while mining in the Pits as well.

Quote

He didn’t immediately go to revenge; he actually spent a considerable length of time numb afterwards. It wasn’t until the events at Keep Shezler that he started thinking about revenge.

He killed all the soldiers at the Pits and every nobleman for ten miles around - that's what I was referring to. He became numb after that, yeah, and didn't come up with the idea of overthrowing the Lord Ruler until those events, but I'm pretty sure that initial wave of killings was revenge - he could have escaped by killing a lot fewer people.