Will Navani Awaken fabrials?[Discuss]

[KaladinWorldsinger]

This isn't a theory discussion thing, because I don't really think my theory is right. I want to hear other solutions too 

Ok, the one thing that I completely didn't expect from ROW is the siblings distaste towards fabrials and just how much time was devoted to it. This is a situation that when I was reading the book, I had absolutely no idea how to resolve it, and I still don't.

Fabrials are getting more and more important to overall story of SA and the cosmere. The desolation is causing pressure on Roshar on developing technologically. This will be helpful for the later space age cosmere in the future. When I saw the epigraphs of ROW, I was sure that I knew where this was going, that this is the seeds from which they will have fabrial computers and stuff in the future.

And then the book slaps the reader in the face with a core problem with making fabrials in the first place. The spren get trapped and the sibling does not like it.

So what's Navani's solution? How can she keep having fabrials without trapping spren?I can think of three things

1) That spren will be asked to manifest into the physical realm and make new fabrials. This is how the sibling does it. Also this is how soulcasters are supposed to work, navani sees some spren sleeping in the CR side of a soulcaster. This is how the ancient fabrials seemed to work( during knights radiant days). But how does this work tho? Which spren will be asked? What about all the other spren that you need to use for specific effects(like flamespren, painspren), where do they come in? So many questions

2) Fabrials were based on the gemhearts of the singers and the greatshells and others. Are the spren they use trapped inside the living beings? Do luckspren live inside a chasmfiend? If so , I really have no idea why the sibling takes so much offense to their imprisonment, since that clearly already happens in the normal, natural cycle in this planet. If they are not trapped in gemhearts then, what does that bond actually look like? Are gemhearts only for storing stormlight all this time?

3)My theory: The process will be like awakening. They will take a core physical seed, ( like an empty gemstone wrapped in a metal cage), then pump this object with stormlight, talk with the cognitive aspect of the object, then command it to manifest in the investiture it has into specific fabrials.

I like this also because you are creating specific spren for your specific needs and then commanding it to perform a certain function. Rather than having potentially sentient computers, which I think is silly.

 

What do u guys think navani's solution will be?

 

[Bort he/him]

First up, I think we're going to continue to see Navani and the Sibling arguing about this as the series progresses, but ultimately, I think we're going to see a mass freeing of the captured spren when the Sibling tells Navani how fabrials are supposed to work.

[Frustration he/him]

25 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

2) Fabrials were based on the gemhearts of the singers and the greatshells and others. Are the spren they use trapped inside the living beings? Do luckspren live inside a chasmfiend? If so , I really have no idea why the sibling takes so much offense to their imprisonment, since that clearly already happens in the normal, natural cycle in this planet. If they are not trapped in gemhearts then, what does that bond actually look like? Are gemhearts only for storing stormlight all this time?

THey weren't quite based on them, but their gemhearts do contain spren

[Quantus he/him]

The sibling isnt against Fabrials (it literally is one) or Spren in Gems on it's own.  But in general the process for capturing the spren and then the "processes" (I think the sibling called it torture) that they put the spren through to get their desired effect is arguably inhumaine.  In particular the Conjoiner Fabrials that Navani pioneered involve Cutting the very Soul of the spren in two pieces.  Per this WOB that is not a pleasant process for a Spren.  It's noted in the book that they experimented on a lot of spren types but settled on Firespren because they are the easiest to split.  I suspect Fire doesnt mind by nature but many other sorts were more damaged/harmed by the splitting.  

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

On the nature of shardblades, to an extent, can a live blade be split without harming it's source, so to speak?

Brandon Sanderson

Can a live blade split? What do you mean, split?

Questioner

Make itself into two weapons.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, can a blade be forged into two weapons. A shardblade.

Questioner

Does it absolutely need a connection, or can it become two?

Brandon Sanderson

So, shardblades becoming two shardblades would require slicing in half a soul, which would not be very fun for the spren. Okay?

Questioner

So it's possible. *laughter*

Brandon Sanderson

So it's technically possible to take hydrogen and to turn it into plutonium with our current technology. It would cost more money than, like, the budget of NASA to do it for, y'know, one atom. So there are things that are possible, but-- Yes it is possible. This is not something that would be easy or very useful to do.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

 

 

 

 

 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

41 minutes ago, Bort said:

First up, I think we're going to continue to see Navani and the Sibling arguing about this as the series progresses, but ultimately, I think we're going to see a mass freeing of the captured spren when the Sibling tells Navani how fabrials are supposed to work.

I think it's very likely that this will get resolved in the next book itself because

1) I don't see a good way for navani to compromise

2) the back half takes place a decade or more later, and sequels have a lot of technological advancements. 

So I am pretty sure we will find out the solution at the next book, hence the discussion

32 minutes ago, Frustration said:

THey weren't quite based on them, but their gemhearts do contain spren

What about singers and their different forms?( Warform, nimbleform not regals)

[Bort he/him]

Yeah, the ten year gap does suggest that something will happen regarding fabrials. Whether or not it's a solution, or something else, we'll have to wait and see. And I'm not expecting Navani to compromise, but rather to be lectured at by the Sibling until she finally submits. Which is going to be interesting to see in its own right.

Singers/Listeners do have gemhearts, and there is usually a spren living within it. Which spren they have determines which form they are in, with dullform being the only form which does not have a spren.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

13 minutes ago, Quantus said:

The sibling isnt against Fabrials (it literally is one) or Spren in Gems on it's own.  But in general the process for capturing the spren and then the "processes" (I think the sibling called it torture) that they put the spren through to get their desired effect is arguably inhumaine.  In particular the Conjoiner Fabrials that Navani pioneered involve Cutting the very Soul of the spren in two pieces.  Per this WOB that is not a pleasant process for a Spren.  It's noted in the book that they experimented on a lot of spren types but settled on Firespren because they are the easiest to split.  I suspect Fire doesnt mind by nature but many other sorts were more damaged/harmed by the splitting.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

While I don't think this is wrong, it's probably a major reason for the sibling's hate, most of her complaints in the book are against imprisonment in general and that captivity itself was the torture. The reader is even invited to think that this reaction is related to BAM's imprisonment which clearly screwed things up for Roshar.

Even if sibling does not care about imprisonment, there still needs to be a discussion since splitting spren is very important to spanreeds, which in turn are very important to the growth of tech

[KaladinWorldsinger]

3 minutes ago, Bort said:

And I'm not expecting Navani to compromise, but rather to be lectured at by the Sibling until she finally submits.

But submits to what? Roshar is not going to stop using spanreeds even if sibling says to, even if Navani stops using them. Especially during and after a desolation.

7 minutes ago, Bort said:

Singers/Listeners do have gemhearts, and there is usually a spren living within it. Which spren they have determines which form they are in, with dullform being the only form which does not have a spren.

I wonder if there is something about singers and greatshells method of using spren that doesn't ruffle the siblings feathers

[Bort he/him]

I'm reasonably sure that the Sibling won't have a problem with a fabrial... So long as the fabrial is created with the permission and consent of the spren inside.

That's the bit that Navani is going to have to submit to, the Sibling's wishes that she stops tormenting captive spren.

And I'm fairly sure this is also the case with greatshells. The spren they have aren't captive, but symbiotic.

[Quantus he/him]

12 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

While I don't think this is wrong, it's probably a major reason for the sibling's hate, most of her complaints in the book are against imprisonment in general and that captivity itself was the torture. The reader is even invited to think that this reaction is related to BAM's imprisonment which clearly screwed things up for Roshar.

Even if sibling does not care about imprisonment, there still needs to be a discussion since splitting spren is very important to spanreeds, which in turn are very important to the growth of tech

Yes, but the key there is Consent (as with so many things).  There's a difference between being housed in a Gem and Imprisoned in a gem; the former is natural for them, the latter is always a violation of the one that is being held against their will.  They had no problem with Fabrials that were spren who Chose to manifest, and their systems use a lot of discrete fabrial systems that presumably used other spren (since those worked without the Sibling). 

 

For Spanreeds, I suspect they will find a spren that doesnt mind and/or isnt harmed by the process (fire seems the most compatible), or else find a different mechanism to base them on (Connection, most likely).  The other uses like the 4th bridge are "easier" in that we can readily see them being replaced by Gravitation Fabrials.  Which are more likely after Adolin's trial, I would think.  

 

2 minutes ago, Bort said:

I'm reasonably sure that the Sibling won't have a problem with a fabrial... So long as the fabrial is created with the permission and consent of the spren inside.

That's the bit that Navani is going to have to submit to, the Sibling's wishes that she stops tormenting captive spren.

And I'm fairly sure this is also the case with greatshells. The spren they have aren't captive, but symbiotic.

Agreed.  Fabrial development wont stop, it will just need to become more humane.  That's happened a lot in real world history with "tools" that are actually domesticated animals. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Quantus

[KaladinWorldsinger]

6 minutes ago, Bort said:

I'm reasonably sure that the Sibling won't have a problem with a fabrial... So long as the fabrial is created with the permission and consent of the spren inside.

 

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Yes, but the key there is Consent (as with so many things).  There's a difference between being housed in a Gem and Imprisoned in a gem; the former is natural for them, the latter is always a violation of the one that is being held against their will.  They had no problem with Fabrials that were spren who Chose to manifest, and their systems use a lot of discrete fabrial systems that presumably used other spren (since those worked without the Sibling).

How would that consent look like tho? Since these spren are not sapient and are instead the shadesmar equivalents of animals. And would these spren even consent to be stuck inside a gemstone? What could they even gain in return?

8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

For Spanreeds, I suspect they will find a spren that doesnt mind and/or isnt harmed by the process (fire seems the most compatible), or else find a different mechanism to base them on (Connection, most likely).

I like this a lot. This problem will slowly get more complicated as more fabrials are made I think. But they probably will use connection shenanigans for spanreeds.

10 minutes ago, Quantus said:

The other uses like the 4th bridge are "easier" in that we can readily see them being replaced by Gravitation Fabrials.  Which are more likely after Adolin's trial, I would think.  

What's this about?

[Bort he/him]

3 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

How would that consent look like tho? Since these spren are not sapient and are instead the shadesmar equivalents of animals. And would these spren even consent to be stuck inside a gemstone? What could they even gain in return?

Maybe it will look like an analogy between free range chickens and battery farming? I honestly don't know, but that's for Navani and the Sibling to work out.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

Just now, Bort said:

Maybe it will look like an analogy between free range chickens and battery farming? 

Umm.... What does that analogy mean?

Ignore extra quote

1 minute ago, Bort said:

I honestly don't know, but that's for Navani and the Sibling to work out.

[Bort he/him]

Just now, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Umm.... What does that analogy mean?

A comparison between two things.

In this case, we can consider free range chickens to be "free" spren, and battery chickens to be "captive" spren. Maybe for the Sibling, it's not about the spren saying yes (because chickens can't, unless they're from Shinovar), but about keeping them in safe, non-torturous environments.

But, as I said, that's the bit Navani and the Sibling will have to work out.

 

[Quantus he/him]

46 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

 

What's this about?

We learned in RoW that the Surge Fabrials are created by convincing sapient spren to voluntarily manifest physically as crystal and Metal in the shape of the appropriate fabrial, something "Enlightened" and/or Void Spren are generally not willing to do (per Rabonel). While we dont know what the limits and requirements are from a Spren racial standpoint, its implied that they are made from the same nine Radiant spren species (excluding Bondsmiths per WoB), which makes the most likely candidates (if not the only possibilities) to be Highspren and Honorspren.  Honorspren as a society have shown themselves a bit split on how to support the war effort, with a fear of the Radiant Bond and Deadeyes being the biggest apparent factor.  Maya and The Trial upended all that, but I dont think the Fear in individuals will go away as quickly.  Becoming a Surge Fabrial seems a decent middle ground for those that want to support the War effort against Odium but do now want to risk the Radiant Bond.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, I get that the "ancient" fabrials like Soulcasters and Regrowth fabrials are sapient spren choosing to manifest in the Physical Realm - I guess like living Shardblades - but it's not totally clear to me how that would carry over to non-sapient spren like the flamespren used in heating fabrials or whatever.

[Wandering Shade]

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, I get that the "ancient" fabrials like Soulcasters and Regrowth fabrials are sapient spren choosing to manifest in the Physical Realm - I guess like living Shardblades - but it's not totally clear to me how that would carry over to non-sapient spren like the flamespren used in heating fabrials or whatever.

Ah, see they weren't talking about heating fabrials. They were talking about in use like in the 4th Bridge, the flying ship that Navani got made. Gravitation Fabrials would be SUPER useful for that, way more efficient than the current method of linked fabrials.

[cometaryorbit]

Hmm, right. But I mean - is there a way that the Sibling would accept to make the kinds of fabrials that require non-sapient spren?

[KaladinWorldsinger]

On 1/27/2022 at 5:11 AM, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, I get that the "ancient" fabrials like Soulcasters and Regrowth fabrials are sapient spren choosing to manifest in the Physical Realm - I guess like living Shardblades - but it's not totally clear to me how that would carry over to non-sapient spren like the flamespren used in heating fabrials or whatever.

What do you mean by sapient spren? Because I don't think we have any confirmation that radiant spren manifested as soulcasters and other ancient fabrials. If u didn't mean radiant spren, what other sapient spren are there( one example I can think of is oathgate spren)

[cometaryorbit]

2 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

What do you mean by sapient spren? Because I don't think we have any confirmation that radiant spren manifested as soulcasters and other ancient fabrials. If u didn't mean radiant spren, what other sapient spren are there( one example I can think of is oathgate spren)

I don't know if it's confirmed that they are actually Radiant spren, but the idea seems to be that they did it by choice (Raboniel says the Fused can't use those kinds of fabrials since voidspren aren't self-sacrificing). That kind of choice seems to require sapience.

The Oathgate spren, I think, are exactly this - sapient spren manifesting willingly in the Physical as a Transportation Surge fabrial; we just didn't know how that worked in Oathbringer (and neither did the characters that met the Oathgate spren).

Since the Oathgate spren don't seem to be the same as Timbre or Ivory, ancient-fabrial spren aren't necessarily Radiant spren, but they do seem to be sapient spren.

[DiePie]

I'm pretty sure in RoW Navani makes note that they had looked at Soulcasters in the cognitive realm and found that they were "Spren with their eyes closed, as if sleeping" or something along those lines. I can't remember if she specifically noted that they were radiant Spren though.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 1/28/2022 at 2:50 PM, DiePie said:

I'm pretty sure in RoW Navani makes note that they had looked at Soulcasters in the cognitive realm and found that they were "Spren with their eyes closed, as if sleeping" or something along those lines. I can't remember if she specifically noted that they were radiant Spren though.

She says "a Radiant spren, judging by their shape", which is... really weird, because she should've recognized it if it were say an inkspren or Cryptic or another Radiant spren...

[KaladinWorldsinger]

10 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

She says "a Radiant spren, judging by their shape", which is... really weird, because she should've recognized it if it were say an inkspren or Cryptic or another Radiant spren...

The fact that this is kept vague is just meaan..

I think maybe it just looks humanoid, which is all she can see and hence the vagueness. Then it's not a radiant spren at all. Because if it was, she would just say it.

This brings me to back my theory that maybe fabrials have 'awakened' cognitive aspects that are sapient. 

An oathgate would be made by having a normal tower, awakening it, it somehow has the surge of transportation and everything else in the tower is manifested by the spren.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

7 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

This brings me to back my theory that maybe fabrials have 'awakened' cognitive aspects that are sapient. 

An oathgate would be made by having a normal tower, awakening it, it somehow has the surge of transportation and everything else in the tower is manifested by the spren.

Could be. The Sibling seems to imply they were spren who underwent some sort of transformation, though.

Quote

“I’ve not forgotten,” Navani said. “But surely you don’t oppose the Oathgates.”

I do not, the Sibling said, sounding reluctant. Those spren have gone willingly to their transformations.

(Which brings us back to the weirdness that is Soulcasters all being made in Aimia...)