alder24 Posted June 6, 2023 Posted June 6, 2023 31 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: Completely fair. I think we may have taken the main point of this argument as far as we can go without further evidence. Agreed. Hopefully KoWT will give us more. Ishar and Oathpact will be focused heavily in that book so there is a hope. 8 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: I wouldn't be surprised if Singer civilization was stone based... but does Roshar's bizarre, crem-based geology actually provide decent metal ore deposits? I thought much of their metal was Soulcast. Yes, there are metal and mineral deposits on Roshar, it can be mined. Mines are placed on the side of mountains where cream isn't deposited, which leaves a big portion of Shinovar mountain ranges open for mining. Spoiler Questioner This whole talk of both Roshar and the highstorms, I'm glad that you said they predate the Shattering. There are some people on 17th Shard, myself included, that firmly believe the entire continent is crem that's accumulated, one highstorm at a time. Brandon Sanderson Good. Let me actually squish that one a little bit because there are mineral deposits that have been mentioned that you have to mine. And crem-- There is actual ferrous iron that you can smelt on Roshar, you have to know how to get to it and things like that, and there are actual gemstone mines and things like that. Much harder to get to and Soulcasting is a stopgap that has helped with this a lot, but there are actual deposits and things like that. JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016) Spoiler Neuxue Does Roshar have a magnetic field? Brandon Sanderson Um, Roshar, magnetic field, yes, it does. Yes. Yeah it does Neuxue You said at one point that it is all one plate-- Brandon Sanderson Yes. Neuxue --that there's no tectonic activity. What is the interior of the planet like? Brandon Sanderson That’s a good question... You're not going to get an answer on that one. It's a weird planet, let's just say that. It's a pretty weird planet Neuxue Are the diamonds naturally occurring? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but most are going to be-- They aren't-- all gemstones are naturally occurring, but most of, many or most of, the gems they are getting they are getting from creatures that grow them, not from the rock. Though there are mines on Roshar, you just have to-- most of them are on the leeward side of mountains, where the crem isn't being deposited. Neuxue So, diamond mines are about tectonics-- Brandon Sanderson It was a created planet, keep that in mind. Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015) I don't think much of Rosharan metal is Soulcasted, it's common enough to make scrap Soulcasted pieces cheap (mainly because that's how new Solcasters train) but there are still relatively few Soulcasters in the world. Azir is famous for having a bronze Soulcaster, which means it's likely one of the kind. Some smaller countries had only one Soulcaster in total, like Kaza was a smoke Soulcaster of Liafor. In Alethkar most Soulcasters would be present on the Shattered Plains and later in Urithiru and front lines, aiding in war effort, which means most of core provinces of Alethkar must have their resources produced in regular way. 23 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: I'm sure modern Rosharans can find at least some deposits (maybe they use something like bog iron?) but I am not at all sure it would be an easy, quick adaptation. Unless Shinovar has more Earthlike geology? I don't know how deep the "terraforming" goes. Is it basically just the ecosystem/soil level or is the whole deep geology different? I'm not sure how it was done in the past but there are surface mines, bog iron or meteorites etc. You don't really need deep mines to get iron. But it is a good question about terraforming. 28 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: That's not quite what I meant. I think RoW implies that the ancient Dawnsinger Stoneshaping was lost when they turned to Odium, somehow? Right. Maybe that's because at that time Odium wasn't a part of Roshar yet and Dawnsingers turning to him, fueled by his investiuture weren't able to do it? 30 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: Anyway, unless Stoneshaping was the only Surge they could access (which is admittedly possible if the singer plant-growing trick is proto-fabrial science not proto-Surgebinding) the ability to use Surges on that kind of scale would be absurdly powerful. I think that RoW chapter mentioned also that Soulcasting was also practiced. But how it looked like there was no mention of it.
Isilel Posted June 7, 2023 Posted June 7, 2023 On 1.6.2023 at 2:59 PM, alder24 said: After a few months or years humans, dissatisfied with what they were given, launch a surprise attack across mountain ranges with significant, concentrated forces (not all needs to be warriors, it could start with settlers making their home among Singers which would cause disagreements, later developed into a casus belli for the invasion) - Dawnsingers are taken completely by surprise and are unable to mount a effective defense, their forces are spread across whole Roshar while humans are concentrated in a small area. Humans completely overrun Singers forcing them out. This doesn't explain how and why Honor would have been able and willing to side with such egregious and dishonorable oathbreakers. @cometaryorbit pointed it out earlier, but it bears repeating - Honor may not have been a complete slave to his Intent at that point, but he also had held the Shard for long enough that going directly against it shouldn't have been possible. And for what reason would he have wanted to? Or, for that matter, why Cultivation would have gone along with it? IMHO, like with "betrayal of spren" that the listener songs talk about, which, as RoW hinted, may have also (or even first?) been betrayal _of_ spren by singers, the initial clash between humans and Dawnsingers wasn't unilateral, but probably a result of a tragic misunderstanding that warmongers on both sides and Odium took advantage of. I imagine something similar to "the Field of Camlann", where a parley unintentionally turned into a slaughter. Which gave Honor wiggling room to pick and choose among the 2 peoples and Odium a chance to recruit the Fused. I have long had a crackpot idea that a second group of humans, unconnected to the Ashynites and their treaty, showed up and the singers took it for a malicious breach of agreement. There was that odd Makabaki legend in... WoR I think? About their country being repopulated by animated stones from a mountain peak, which caused me to speculate in this direction. But at this point it seems very unlikely, though we know that non-Ashyn immigrants did arrive later. "The Girl who looked up" story is somehow connected to whatever happened too, I am sure. Generally, we have to be aware that Elia Stele and even more so listener traditions are biased and can't be accepted uncritically. Ditto modern Rosharans interpretations of the few historical facts available to them at the moment. On 1.6.2023 at 2:59 PM, alder24 said: There is a question that nobody seems to ask - where Singers were living in between Desolations? This is an excellent question. My suggesstion is that the map of the Silver Kingdoms that we are familiar with was produced after the imprisonment of BAM. On 4.6.2023 at 2:30 AM, cometaryorbit said: Mixed gray & black in one's 30s isn't that unusual. I agree we don't have a description of Ash's age, but clearly adult. Yes, their respective ages (as per WoK prologue) have always been a headscratcher. Also, why on Roshar did Jezrien think that it was a good idea to make his barely adult daughter a Herald?! On 4.6.2023 at 2:30 AM, cometaryorbit said: I just disagree that their initially becoming Invested was either the Oathpact or necessarily related to the human conquest of Roshar. Hm... I have strongly suspected for some time that the Heralds could use their Honorblades even as disembodied CSs on Braize. After all, they supposedly fought there before getting captured and tortured. But was this part of the original idea for the Oathpact? No clue, honestly.
alder24 Posted June 7, 2023 Posted June 7, 2023 28 minutes ago, Isilel said: This doesn't explain how and why Honor would have been able and willing to side with such egregious and dishonorable oathbreakers. @cometaryorbit pointed it out earlier, but it bears repeating - Honor may not have been a complete slave to his Intent at that point, but he also had held the Shard for long enough that going directly against it shouldn't have been possible. And for what reason would he have wanted to? Or, for that matter, why Cultivation would have gone along with it? I don't think there is anything preventing Honor from making new oaths with people that already had broken their previous one. We don't even know about the nature of those promises about "not leaving Shinovar", nor do we know if they were technically oaths (I don't remember), or with whom they were made. Stormfather made a bond with Dalinar, and took their marriage oaths despite them breaking their oaths in the past, which he pointed out to them. Stormfather was accepting new Radiant's oaths despite believing that they will break their Oaths just like ancient Radiants did. Cryptics were willing to send as many spren as it would take to bond with Shallan (for some reason), even if Shallan were to constantly break her Oaths. Testament's death didn't prevent them from sending Pattern next. Honor was focusing on keeping oaths and their meaning (at that time at least). I don't think he would be unable or unwilling to make new oaths with Heralds because of that. If they were spoken truthfully, he would accept them. This is not against his Intent. If he were to break his own word, or spoke an oath with ill intention, that would be against Honor's Intent. Cultivation has even fewer reasons not to side with humans, as her intent has nothing to do with it. I say her siding with humans would Cultivate them. 43 minutes ago, Isilel said: IMHO, like with "betrayal of spren" that the listener songs talk about, which, as RoW hinted, may have also (or even first?) been betrayal _of_ spren by singers, the initial clash between humans and Dawnsingers wasn't unilateral, but probably a result of a tragic misunderstanding that warmongers on both sides and Odium took advantage of. I imagine something similar to "the Field of Camlann", where a parley unintentionally turned into a slaughter. Which gave Honor wiggling room to pick and choose among the 2 peoples and Odium a chance to recruit the Fused. Singer betrayal of spren was hinted? Do you remember where? Yes, it's likely that the initial conflict started with some simple misunderstanding. Simply humans crossing the mountains to explore with no intention of settling might trigger something. Or some typical miscommunication. Singers might do something that humans interpreted as an act of violence or hostility and attacked, as they thought in self-defense or preemptively. If humans view their actions as justified, view Singers as the one that had broken their words, that might even give Honor enough room to side with them without arguing if his intent would prevent this. Betrayal of spren for sure was a huge part of it. 52 minutes ago, Isilel said: Generally, we have to be aware that Elia Stele and even more so listener traditions are biased and can't be accepted uncritically. Ditto modern Rosharans interpretations of the few historical facts available to them at the moment. Yes, we barely know anything. True Spren like Inkspren and Highspren likely know something more about it. But other than them, Heralds, Fused and Cultivation/Odium, there is not many that know what happened there. 54 minutes ago, Isilel said: This is an excellent question. My suggesstion is that the map of the Silver Kingdoms that we are familiar with was produced after the imprisonment of BAM. I think the map was made before the Recreance and even before the Aharietiam. Urithiru would be considered an important part of the Silver Kingdoms, often mentioned alongside them in sources readed by Jasnah/Shallan. Natanatan was part of that map, at the time of Aharietiam Stormseat was already destroyed. Aimia was destroyed soon after the Recreance too. 1 hour ago, Isilel said: Yes, their respective ages (as per WoK prologue) have always been a headscratcher. Also, why on Roshar did Jezrien think that it was a good idea to make his barely adult daughter a Herald?! I've just stumbled upon Coppermind on this: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Proving_Day It made me think if Heralds weren't volunteers, but rather they were tested and chosen if they completed certain tasks? We know only that Jezrien was a king, Taln wasn't meant to be a Herald at first and as Ash said, was a king who never wore a crown, Nale was the enemy of Jez, Ishar was Bondsmith on Ashyn. That's it. We don't know who they were before, if they knew each other and if most of them were on the same side (Nalan or Jez likely weren't). If some tests were involved, then Jezrien would have nothing to say about Ash passing them, nor would he be able to forbid her joining if that was outside of his power. Then Taln would be the one who had never competed in this yet still was chosen as Herald (maybe by Ash’s suggestion?). 1 hour ago, Isilel said: Hm... I have strongly suspected for some time that the Heralds could use their Honorblades even as disembodied CSs on Braize. After all, they supposedly fought there before getting captured and tortured. But was this part of the original idea for the Oathpact? No clue, honestly. I think so too. But with whom? Fused went into a deep sleep, Voidspren like Ulim respect Heralds and fear them. Who would be left there to fight with Heralds? Lesser Voidspren? Unmades? Not all of them were trapped on Braize in between Desolations. Odium himself? He doesn't have a form, he could torture their mind alone without any need of spren/Fused. But if it was Odium who tortured them, how was it possible that they could hide from him on his planet?
cometaryorbit Posted June 7, 2023 Author Posted June 7, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Isilel said: "The Girl who looked up" story is somehow connected to whatever happened too, I am stying. [...] This is an excellent question. My suggesstion is that the map of the Silver Kingdoms that we are familiar with was produced after the imprisonment of BAM. [...] Hm... I have strongly suspected for some time that the Heralds could use their Honorblades even as disembodied CSs on Braize. After all, they supposedly fought there before getting captured and tortured. But was this part of the original idea for the Oathpact? No clue, honestly. Oh, right -- I didn't put it in the original post, but the Girl Who Looked Up story was part of what originally got me thinking about longer timelines: that story could imply that humans had forgotten why they were supposed to stay in Shinovar, only remembering that they were supposed to. But the Raboniel's grandmother thing seems to rule that out. Singer generations are shorter than human, and I'd think forgetting the purpose of the prohibition would take centuries. Raboniel's family is a problem for the obvious interpretation based on Herald ages (less than 30 years) but it also rules out extremely long timelines. So maybe the story is instead about the experimenting with Surges on Ashyn, and the "Wall" is a prohibition against doing that, and God's Light is the Surges rather than Stormlight specifically? - I'd think probably post-Aharietiam but pre-Recreance. I doubt the Silver Kingdoms effectively occupied all of Roshar, even if they claimed it all. The singers were likely fairly marginal, without access to their Odium-based powers or their ancient ones. ...Maybe. One thing I'd love to know is how relevant "ancient fabrials" and Radiant Surge use was to human civilization of that time. The Oathgates were apparently important to trade. Could average people who were deathly sick have a reasonable chance of getting healed by an Edgedancer? Were Radiants Soulcasting heavily enough that that was a major source of resources? I wouldn't be surprised if it did work that way, and if that was actually suppressing the kind of proto-scientific/industrial development we see on modern Roshar. But if it did, that civilization would be so powerful that the singers couldn't be remotely competitive. They'd be basically stone age, since mining is so hard on Roshar, and without their ancient Stoneshaping abilities. OTOH, human/singer hybrids (ancestors of Horneaters and Herdazians) originated at some point. Was that during the Silver Kingdoms post-Aharietiam era before the False Desolation, when Singers weren't the enemy anymore? Maybe humans and singers lived side by side in some of the Silver Kingdoms, as citizens. Or was it at the very beginning, some kind of political marriage to seal the original pact? - Hmm. That would make the Honorblades make more sense, and so make this theory less necessary. The timeline itself & ages are still iffy, but maybe it could be squeezed (Raboniel's mother was already around when humans arrived & Essu was made Fused very young / Shalash was Jez's adopted daughter not biological). Edited June 7, 2023 by cometaryorbit
cometaryorbit Posted June 7, 2023 Author Posted June 7, 2023 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Singer betrayal of spren was hinted? Do you remember where? Leshwi implies it; RoW ch 109 Quote “What have you done, Venli?” Leshwi said. “What have you done?” “I … I swore the First Ideal of the Radiants,” Venli said. “I’m sorry.” “Sorry…” Leshwi said. A joyspren burst around her, beautiful, like a blue storm. “Sorry? Venli, they’ve come back to us! They’ve forgiven us.” What? “Please,” Leshwi said to Longing, “ask your spren. Do they know of an honorspren named Riah? She was my friend once. Precious to me.” Leshwi … had friends? Among the spren? Storms. Leshwi had lived before the war, when men and singers had been allies. Honor had been the god of the Dawnsingers. 2
alder24 Posted June 7, 2023 Posted June 7, 2023 36 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: Leshwi implies it; RoW ch 109 Right, that one. I thought it would be Leshwi. But look at the last word "when men and singers had been allies". They have an interesting implication, as that means there was a relationship between humans and singers, a deep one, not just occasional trade, but full alliance. And that alliance would also explained from where humans got weapons - Singers provided them as a part of that alliance. Humans and Singers were allies -> humans started to attract lesser spren of emotions -> jealousy and sparks of conflict arose -> Singers did something that True Spren considered a bad deed or even betrayal turning them towards humans -> full war started by one side -> Singers turned towards Odium -> Fused -> Heralds. What if both Leshwi and the Eila Stele talk about the same event? What if Leshwi "They’ve forgiven us" is about "For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind." form the Eila Stele and "the betrayal of spren" from the Songs of Secrets? The difference is Leshwi blames herself for what had happened while the rest of Singers blamed humanity and spren. This might even mean that Singers striked first, not humans. And it would make Honor switching sides easy to explained, as Singers did something that forced him to abandon them.
Isilel Posted June 8, 2023 Posted June 8, 2023 Quoting is acting up for me today for some reason, so @alder24: During his visits to the vision of Aharietam Dalinar specifically noted how much better the weapons and equipment of the forces on Odium's side were, while their opponents had to literally resort to sticks and stones in some cases. Which means that the singers had a significant industrial base at that point, compared to the humans opposing them. I don't see how it could be possibly compatible with the Silver Kingdoms map we know. Concerning the Heralds, Jezrien mentioned how they took up their duty voluntarily in the WoK Prelude and Dalinar saw a glimpse of him inviting Nale, who had been his enemy, into the Pact in RoW chapter 47 "A Cage Formed of Spirits". "There is no person we would welcome more eagerly into this pact than you." Intriguingly, Jez also called him "an enemy who was correct all along, making me the villain, not you". Judging by this whole scene, Ishar and him were just inviting people whom they considered to be worthy. Taln was "THE ONE WHO WASN'T MEANT TO HAVE JOINED THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE; THE ONE WHO WAS NOT A KING, SCHOLAR OR GENERAL." according to the Stormfather in chapter 38 of OB "Broken People". What Ash meant, presumably, was that he was more fit to wear a crown than anyone who ever did, not that he had been an actual king. It would appear that a general who was supposed to become the 10th Herald refused to do so at the last moment and Taln, who likely was a simple soldier and possibly in love with Ash, stepped up. The whole thing smells of Hoid's shenangians, IMHO. It is rather ironic that Chana, who according to SF's declaration, must have been a general, ended up with a moniker of "Herald of Common Man", while Taln became "Herald of War". Whom the Heralds fought on Braize? Presumably, not all Fused souls slept all the time, somebody had to catch, secure and torture them. Regarding Odium, "restrictions Honor placed upon me... preventing me from using my powers on most individuals" RoW chapter 112, likely stopped him from dealing with the Heralds on Braize personally. He can only touch people who give him a foothold in their souls. @cometaryorbit: IMHO "The Girl Who Looked Up" has something to do with humans attracting the attention of spren. She brings back "a piece of god's light". Dalinar's visions also showed that use of ancient fabrials didn't prevent highly evolved material cultures from existing during the Heraldic Epochs, which got beaten further down during each Desolation. And people were pretty much at the stone age by the time of Aharietam. Not to mention that the majority of the planetary population must have been killed off. Now, it is true that in the 2 millenia between Aharietam and the Recreance humanity recovered only very slowly. But then, so much has been lost. That being said, the "modern" fabrial science couldn't have developed. But I don't think that the old idea that magic, if it is very limited and exclusive, should interfere with the progress of mundane technology, is valid.
cometaryorbit Posted June 10, 2023 Author Posted June 10, 2023 On 6/8/2023 at 8:46 AM, Isilel said: @cometaryorbit: IMHO "The Girl Who Looked Up" has something to do with humans attracting the attention of spren. She brings back "a piece of god's light". Dalinar's visions also showed that use of ancient fabrials didn't prevent highly evolved material cultures from existing during the Heraldic Epochs, which got beaten further down during each Desolation. And people were pretty much at the stone age by the time of Aharietam. Not to mention that the majority of the planetary population must have been killed off. Now, it is true that in the 2 millenia between Aharietam and the Recreance humanity recovered only very slowly. But then, so much has been lost. That being said, the "modern" fabrial science couldn't have developed. But I don't think that the old idea that magic, if it is very limited and exclusive, should interfere with the progress of mundane technology, is valid. Quite possible. I wasn't talking about the Heraldic Epochs but the time between Aharietiam and the False Desolation, when the Radiants had 2500 years to develop uninterrupted by Desolations, and had Urithiru as a cross-Roshar teleport nexus. I'm not at all sure that access to Radiant/ancient fabrial abilities was so rare that it wouldn't affect technological development, in those times. The Oathgates were apparently important to trade. Soulcasters were presumably rare ... but one individual can Soulcast a lot of material. They're key to feeding the warcamps, which are huge. And food, unlike e.g. metals, gets used up quickly.
IlstrawberrySeed Posted June 14, 2023 Posted June 14, 2023 On 6/2/2023 at 7:08 AM, alder24 said: Yeah, that shouldn't be possible, no matter the quality of the wood used for that. Wood is just too light, and the side of the wagon too wide, to resist Highstorm. It should act like a sail. After all that Highstorm is able to pick up trees and stones off the ground, a wide wooden wagon should go flying, or be torn to shreds by rock and wood flying through it. Those need to be heavy, not light, otherwise wide sides of the wagon would act like a sail. There are metal bars in it, that's additional weight, likely considerable, but I doubt normal wagons have bars for slaves too. I thought they mentioned securing the wagon via ropes. I don't have the book to double check though. 1
alder24 Posted June 14, 2023 Posted June 14, 2023 28 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: I thought they mentioned securing the wagon via ropes. I don't have the book to double check though. You're right. WoK ch 4: Quote That force—sentient or not—failed. The wagons were chained to nearby boulders with their wheels locked. Would this prevent winds from toppling the wagon? If they're chained from the top on each side/corner, so tension would work, then maybe. 1
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