+Oltux72 he/him Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: That's because the Honorblades are a special thing. They are the original. Plus we know that Honor feared Surgebinders repeating Ashyn. 5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Source? Ashyn. 5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Heatrials? Painrials? Alerters? Attractors? Yes. we know spren that can decrease mass, create lightning, detect Active Investiture. 5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Conjoiners? I'd say they are something fundamentally different. 5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: There isn't one, as far as we know. Fabrials, Surgebinding, and Voidbinding are the three systems. Regals Singer Forms Greatshells and related forms using the Rhytms Rhyshadiums Horneater temporal bonds Purelake fish Aimians The Highstorms animal spren sensing natural phenomena the Purelake itself That list is possibly not exhaustive. Roshar is not exactly short of Invested phenomena. What you count is kind of arbitrary. And we can quote Khrissalla herself: (Oathbringer - Ars Arcanum) Quote I'm not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something entirely different. 5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: There's exactly one mention of Voidbinding outside the Ars Arcanum, and basically the only thing we know about it from there is it involves seeing the future in some form. Though, we do know it usually (but not always) "originates with the Unmade": What is Wyndle called routinely to his constant irritation? 5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: And we know Renarin is the first of his kind, so "with the Unmade" can't just mean from Sja-anat's corrupted spren. True. Unless the Voidspren became voidfabrials. 5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: (Also, Sja-anat directly compares her Enlightenment to the Surge of Transformation, and guess what Raboniel was said to have used to corrupt the Sibling? And we know that while it's not quite one-to-one, the Unmade do correlate with the nine non-Bondsmith orders to an extent. So the Unmade having ties to Odious interpretations of the Surges, or "Voids" if you prefer that terminology, seems to be implied imo, and it would make sense if that was similar to the expressions in Voidbinding.) If you go by that logic, Sja-anat is even closer to the Nightwatcher, just operating on spren rather than humans.
Frustration Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: What is Wyndle called routinely to his constant irritation? Voidbringer.
StanLemon Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 Rythm of War makes it clear Surgebinding on Roshar existed before humanity showed up. At minimum Singers were using Cohesion since ancient times for tool making. Also several aspects of the books heavily imply Singers were Bonding with sapient Spren in those ancient times as well. They probably were using Surgebinding as it originally developed on Roshar. The modern forms of Surgebinding (Fused and Knights Radiant) both have implications that they are artificial to some extent.
+Oltux72 he/him Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 28 minutes ago, Frustration said: Voidbringer. Since he does provide an Invested Art, what but Voidbinding would that art be? Now, Khrissalla is quite specific that there are ten levels of Voidbinding and she mentions fabrials as recent, hence we must assume that her knowledge is current as of Oathbringer. That mean that she knows Regals and does not identify them as Voidbinders. How does she know what Voidbinders are Rosharan scholars know, it is just not common knowledge she has access to archives in Shadesmar she is old enough to to have been on Roshar before Aharietiam
Frustration Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 (edited) 14 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Since he does provide an Invested Art, what but Voidbinding would that art be? Considering Lift is a child and Voidbringer is the Rosharan equivelant of saying "demon" it doesn't mean anything. 14 hours ago, Oltux72 said: she is old enough to to have been on Roshar before Aharietiam That's in question Edited January 6, 2022 by Frustration 2
LewsTherinTelescope Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 20 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: I am not sure what Surge Ashertmarn's removed inhibitions effect would connect to. Cognitive/Spiritual Cohesion, "softening" the soul? But that one's a real stretch. I guess it could fit as the conceptual opposite to Stonewards though since they are all about endurance. I've liked Abrasion & Dustbringers, loosening inhibitions and self-control. 20 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Hmm. I wonder if all of them warp the soul / spiritual aspect in some way which can let stuff from the Spiritual Realm get in? The Thrill from Nergaoul, powers from Yelig-nar, etc.? 'Holes in the soul' vaguely analogous to (Mistborn) That could make sense. 20 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Are, say, stormform or envoyform spren corrupted/enlightened "regular" spren or Splinters of Odium? I'd guess probably normal Voidspren, because a distinction is usually drawn between Enlightened spren and true Voidspren, and stormspren are usually just called a type of Voidspren, not anything else. 15 hours ago, Oltux72 said: They are the original. Well, probably not really, since we see the Dawnsingers in Venli's vision using Surges, and Ashynites did so. Also, Brandon counts the Honorblades as a mechanical means of access, so they may be more analogous to a Soulcaster than anything else. 15 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Ashyn. How does that prove that in the past swearing Ideals didn't give Radiants stronger Surgebinding? 15 hours ago, Oltux72 said: decrease mass Not the same as an attractor. 15 hours ago, Oltux72 said: create lightning I forget, when do we see spren doing that? And how does that explain any of the fabrial types there? 15 hours ago, Oltux72 said: detect Active Investiture Which spren does that outside a fabrial? 15 hours ago, Oltux72 said: I'd say they are something fundamentally different. That's fair. 15 hours ago, Oltux72 said: That list is possibly not exhaustive. Roshar is not exactly short of Invested phenomena. What you count is kind of arbitrary. Sure, but it'd be sort of odd for Brandon to count fabrials as the third if there was a direct parallel to the other two. (And again, Radiance is of both H&C.) 15 hours ago, Oltux72 said: And we can quote Khrissalla herself: (Oathbringer - Ars Arcanum) Doesn't have to be a Surgebinding equivalent (and in fact, the difficulty Khriss has in fitting Voidbinding in would seem to point to Voidbinding being not a direct parallel either). 15 hours ago, Oltux72 said: What is Wyndle called routinely to his constant irritation? "Voidbringer", not "Voidbinder". 15 hours ago, Oltux72 said: True. Unless the Voidspren became voidfabrials. Raboniel mentions that the Fused generally weren't able to convince them to. Quote Raboniel hummed a rhythm. “I am a quick learner.” She gestured to the notes on Navani’s desk. “In the past, my kind found it difficult to persuade spren to manifest themselves in the Physical Realm as devices. It seems Voidspren are not as naturally … self-sacrificing as those of Honor or Cultivation.” 15 hours ago, Oltux72 said: If you go by that logic, Sja-anat is even closer to the Nightwatcher, just operating on spren rather than humans. I dunno, I wouldn't say Nightwatcher boons feel particularly equivalent to me, but I can see where you're coming from. But Sja-anat directly compares her power to Transformation, and Raboniel is explicitly said to be using Transformation during her corruption attempt. 14 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Since he does provide an Invested Art, what but Voidbinding would that art be? I'm not sure that someone trying to act ten accusing something of being essentially a demon is a great source of reliable information. 14 hours ago, Oltux72 said: How does she know what Voidbinders are Very good question. I assume the same way she knows things like the terminology around Lashings, be that Shadesmar, Shin contacts, etc. 14 hours ago, Oltux72 said: she is old enough to to have been on Roshar before Aharietiam Not likely, last we heard White Sand is post-Aharietiam. Quote graciemoo Does White Sand take place before the Way of Kings Kalak Prelude? Brandon Sanderson Not in the current timeline, but most of that isn't in the books explicitly yet, so we allow it to remain fluid until canonized by in-book events.
graciemoo Does White Sand take place before the Way of Kings Kalak Prelude? Brandon Sanderson Not in the current timeline, but most of that isn't in the books explicitly yet, so we allow it to remain fluid until canonized by in-book events.
Frustration Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 5 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Which spren does that outside a fabrial? The screamers at Kholinar 1
LewsTherinTelescope Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 2 minutes ago, Frustration said: The screamers at Kholinar Ah, I forgot about those, good catch. Wouldn't say that's really the same thing as an Alerter, though.
+Oltux72 he/him Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 24 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Ah, I forgot about those, good catch. Wouldn't say that's really the same thing as an Alerter, though. Nearly all natural animal spren are capable of more generalized feats of that kind. If rain can attract a rainspren, it has the ability to detect rain. Even more remarkable for those associated with emotions. Alerters are really unremarkable I am afraid.
cometaryorbit Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 The Singers definitely could do stuff related to the Surges (stoneshaping -> Cohesion, growing plants with Rhythms and Light -> Progression) but I am not sure that means they are "Surgebinding" in the sense of the magic system itself. This may be closer to Rosharan natural magic- chasmfiends are unnaturally lightened through a spren bond but they are not really Surgebinding per se. There is also a WoB that fabrials "are part of" the third magic system (alongside Surgebinding and Voidbinding), some of what the Singers do might be their version of the same basic system. I don't think we know enough to draw clear lines yet. It's far from obvious to me why Renarin using Illumination to see the future is a separate magic system, Voidbinding, but the really weird Fused versions of Transportation (husks) and Progression (carapace/body growth) are just Surgebinding. ...unless those are different because the Fused are really Cognitive Shadows so their relation to their bodies might be different? 1
LewsTherinTelescope Posted January 7, 2022 Posted January 7, 2022 4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: ...unless those are different because the Fused are really Cognitive Shadows so their relation to their bodies might be different? Imo, the main difference is just that they can hold Light indefinitely while using it on themselves for some reason, combined with having thousands of years of practice and more advanced scientific knowledge. But Brandon's spoken about it a bit differently, so I dunno. The Fused are weird.
bmcclure7 Posted January 7, 2022 Author Posted January 7, 2022 On 1/3/2022 at 8:45 PM, Frustration said: Odium and Honor are far more aligned than you seem to think Agreed after all love is a Passion and that can form powerful bonds.
Frustration Posted January 7, 2022 Posted January 7, 2022 56 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: Agreed after all love is a Passion and that can form powerful bonds. Odium is not love, he is first and foremost Hatred.
bmcclure7 Posted January 8, 2022 Author Posted January 8, 2022 19 hours ago, Frustration said: Odium is not love, he is first and foremost Hatred. He is foremost hate but he is all passion. Besides hate kind also bind people together so it doesn't really matter.
Frustration Posted January 8, 2022 Posted January 8, 2022 4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: He is foremost hate but he is all passion. Besides hate kind also bind people together so it doesn't really matter. No MB spoilers Spoiler Ruin also refers to Passion in regards to himself.
bmcclure7 Posted January 9, 2022 Author Posted January 9, 2022 (edited) 21 hours ago, Frustration said: No MB spoilers Hide contents Ruin also refers to Passion in regards to himself. When. Even if ruin did say that then he was lying. We know that The Shard odiumIs associated with Passion because of taravangian's ascension. It's specifically stated that he was chosen because of his Passion. Odium as Passion at least make sense Is hate after all is one of the passions. Ruin is not a Passion. I don't see how there could be any connection. If he implied that there was connection then clearly ruin was lying also hes insane so, Even if he was telling the truth we couldn't really trust him. Edited January 9, 2022 by bmcclure7
Frustration Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: When. Secret histories 5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: Even if ruin did say that then he was lying. We know that The Shard odiumIs associated with Passion because of taravangian's ascension. It's specifically stated that he was chosen because of his Passion. One shard having an association does not mean it has exclusive association. Cultivation and Ruin are both associated with Change, neither to the exclusion of the other. 5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: Ruin is not a Passion. I don't see how there could be any connection. If he implied that there was connection then clearly ruin was lying also hes insane so, Even if he was telling the truth we couldn't really trust him. Brandon disagrees Spoiler Questioner Was it relevant that Ruin mentioned Passion to Vin? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) Valhalla Ruin and Odium, they both talked about their passion, and it was italicized both times. Would any other Shards talk about passion in that same italicized way? Brandon Sanderson Yes they would. Valhalla Would any of them not talk about it that way? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Excellent, good questions. Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018) 1
+Oltux72 he/him Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: Even if ruin did say that then he was lying. We know that The Shard odiumIs associated with Passion because of taravangian's ascension. It's specifically stated that he was chosen because of his Passion. Passion implies a desire for change in the majority of cases. Ruin likes change. So indirectly he likes passion. 7 minutes ago, Frustration said: Cultivation and Ruin are both associated with Change, neither to the exclusion of the other. One might see change as superset of their Intent. 7 minutes ago, Frustration said: Brandon disagrees Hide contents Brandon Sanderson Yes they would. Mercy. Ambition. Devotion. Dominion. 7 minutes ago, Frustration said: Valhalla Would any of them not talk about it that way? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Excellent, good questions. Preservation.
Frustration Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 Just now, Oltux72 said: Mercy. Ambition. Devotion. Dominion. I'm not sure on Dominion, Devotion, or Mercy. Though definatly Ambition, and probably Valor 1 minute ago, Oltux72 said: Preservation. Cultivation, Honor, Autonomy, Invention.
bmcclure7 Posted January 11, 2022 Author Posted January 11, 2022 On 1/3/2022 at 8:45 PM, Frustration said: Odium and Honor are far more aligned than you seem to think We've already seen void Spren Bond with people.
Frustration Posted January 11, 2022 Posted January 11, 2022 45 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: We've already seen void Spren Bond with people. I was more refering to this. Spoiler Questioner What Shard is the opposite of Odium in the sense of the *inaudible* Brandon Sanderson There are several that could be considered opposites-- Questioner I mean in the assimilation sense, you’ve said that Odium doesn’t want to absorb any of the other ones but which one would want to? Brandon Sanderson Oh, which one would want to join with him? Questioner Or any of them. Brandon Sanderson I think that if personalities had been different, Honor and Odium, there would have been a very natural pairing, not that they’re opposites but they would have attracted. [...] Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)
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