Powers of void binding

[+Oltux72 he/him]

12 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Presumably. But how did humans tap into the power of the Unmade to Voidbind, without Enlightened/corrupted true spren?

They didn't. Why complicate things? You do not bond the Stormfather or The Sibling to become an ordinary Knight Radiant. You bond a sapient spren of certain kinds. Sapient Voidspren exist. So the simplest explanation of how to become a Voidbinder is to bond one of them.

12 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

The Unmade can connect to humans to some degree, e.g. the Death Rattles and the Thrill and the uninhibited behavior driven by Ashertmarn, but these sort of things seem different from full-on "Magic system" manifestations of Investiture.

 

Yelig-nar, the one who comes closest to bonding individual humans, makes you a Surgebinder.

12 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

We also don't know how much, if at all, Renarin's Voidbinding is altered by his being a Knight Radiant - if historical Voidbinders got the ability a different way, they presumably weren't KR, so is Renarin's power set the same as historical Voidbinding?

No. We have a chart. He should have two Void powers. He has shown no sign of a second such power. So, straightforward explanation:
He has bonded a hybrid spren, so his powers are also hybrid - one surge, one "void", as opposed to a bondee of an ordinary spren - two surges, or a true voidbinder - two "voids".
Renarin is a surgebinder as well as a voidbinder.

 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

but Ashyn's magic is fueled by her.

How do we know this?

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

How do we know this?

this

Spoiler

Questioner

You have talked about writing a book about Ashyn, the first planet in the Rosharan system. You said that they have a magic system based on disease, but they are currently without a Shard. Can you tell us what the source of that magic system is?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of the magic systems in the cosmere, I kind of in my head differentiate kind of the primary worlds and the secondary worlds. And even on the secondary worlds, there is magic. And any place that a Shard has been in presence is gonna leave behind an aftereffect, but it's not always that. I would call most of the magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, most likely. And Cultivation's in the system, but has only briefly been to that planet. But it doesn't mean that... basically, it's kind of the level of Investiture. If you go to Scadrial, on Scadrial, you're gonna have a high percentage of the population, cosmereologically, that are gonna have access to one of the Hemalurgic [Metallic] arts, right? Same thing on Roshar. And indeed, the people are going to be Invested on a level that is beyond the others. This is my in-world canon reason that people just don't come down with colds very often or have tooth decay very often, and things like that. On the primary Shardworlds, we're talking about people who are just naturally, highly Invested.

All the other worlds, though, you're still gonna have the occasional pop-up of magic, here and there. You're still gonna have effects of being in the cosmere, and things like that. Just much smaller chances. And the magic's probably going to be less likely to be planet-destroying potential, and things like that, like happened on Ashyn.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021)

 

[cometaryorbit]

12 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They didn't. Why complicate things? You do not bond the Stormfather or The Sibling to become an ordinary Knight Radiant. You bond a sapient spren of certain kinds. Sapient Voidspren exist. So the simplest explanation of how to become a Voidbinder is to bond one of them.

 

This does seem the simplest model - but I think the WoB that Voidbinding "not always, but usually" comes from the Unmade rules it out, because if that model is true it would "usually" come from less powerful sapient Voidspren like Ulim, not the Unmade.

[bmcclure7]

On 12/20/2021 at 11:09 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I suppose it could be a pure-Odium system of Roshar, yeah.

I was kind of going on the assumption that Odium originally didn't really Invest in Roshar, that's more recent. While some of the voidspren may be true Splinters of Odium, mostly Odium seems to work through corrupting existing things (the singers, Unmade, Sja-anat's corrupted/enlightened spren, etc.)

Its void binding a pure Odium system?

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Its void binding a pure Odium system?

We don't know for certain.

I think it is.

[cometaryorbit]

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Its void binding a pure Odium system?

Personally, I doubt it. I don't think there is a pure Odium system, at least not one we've seen mentioned or hinted at. I think voidbinding is probably Honor + Odium or maybe Honor + Cultivation + Odium.

If Renarin is Voidbinding, the Initiation of that system still would involve binding spren, which is a Honor kind of thing. A pure Odium system would presumably have an Initiation based on negative emotions (hate, fury, etc.) or enmity with someone/something or maybe based on shattering, dividing, or destroying part of yourself?

[Going_North_cal]

I think Voidbinding is either Honor + Odium, or, in the case of Cultivation-oriented Radiant Orders (i.e. Truthwatchers), it's Honor + Odium + Cultivation.

[Frustration]

48 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

If Renarin is Voidbinding, the Initiation of that system still would involve binding spren

He is Voidbinding, though the way he does it is not the only way.

48 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

A pure Odium system would presumably have an Initiation based on negative emotions (hate, fury, etc.) or enmity with someone/something or maybe based on shattering, dividing, or destroying part of yourself?

That's not how magic systems work, the nature of the shard has some influence, but not as much as you imply.

[bmcclure7]

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Personally, I doubt it. I don't think there is a pure Odium system, at least not one we've seen mentioned or hinted at. I think voidbinding is probably Honor + Odium or maybe Honor + Cultivation + Odium.

If Renarin is Voidbinding, the Initiation of that system still would involve binding spren, which is a Honor kind of thing. A pure Odium system would presumably have an Initiation based on negative emotions (hate, fury, etc.) or enmity with someone/something or maybe based on shattering, dividing, or destroying part of yourself?

What if some form of passion is need to attract or bind the Spren? Would that be a Odium initiation or honor? Surely passion can form bonds similar to oaths.  

[cometaryorbit]

8 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

What if some form of passion is need to attract or bind the Spren? Would that be a Odium initiation or honor? Surely passion can form bonds similar to oaths.  

To me that still sounds kind of like Odium + Honor rather than pure-Odium, even if we accept that Passion is really what Odium is (I doubt it; I think that's more Odium's own propaganda. Odium may be a bit broader than just Hatred, but it's clearly not all emotion,

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

He is Voidbinding, though the way he does it is not the only way.

That's not how magic systems work, the nature of the shard has some influence, but not as much as you imply.

I don't know; of the five systems we really understand the Initiation for, three are extremely direct and straightforward connections - Awakening's connection to Endowment (Breaths must be given by intent), Hemalurgy's connection to Ruin (power must be stolen at a loss - entropy), and Surgebinding's connection to Honor (a bond is formed by oaths).

Allomancy's a bit more of a stretch (external source allowing one to Preserve one's own strength), but I think the "survival" aspect of Snapping is also at play here.

Feruchemy is less direct, but it's a 'balance magic' between two Shards, so we probably shouldn't expect it to directly reflect either Shard's intent.

I don't think we know enough about how the Shaod works for AonDor or how people get the talent for Sand Mastery to judge those two systems. We know even less about the other Selish magic systems - but anyway these are also two-shard systems (due to the nature of the Dor I assume AonDor probably is too rather than being pure-Devotion, but who knows, guess AonDor could be all Aona & Dakhor all Skai/Dominion, but since there are more than three Selish systems I doubt it's that simple as it is on Scadrial).

[bmcclure7]

19 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

To me that still sounds kind of like Odium + Honor rather than pure-Odium, even if we accept that Passion is really what Odium is (I doubt it; I think that's more Odium's own propaganda. Odium may be a bit broader than just Hatred, but it's clearly not all emotion,

I don't know; of the five systems we really understand the Initiation for, three are extremely direct and straightforward connections - Awakening's connection to Endowment (Breaths must be given by intent), Hemalurgy's connection to Ruin (power must be stolen at a loss - entropy), and Surgebinding's connection to Honor (a bond is formed by oaths).

Allomancy's a bit more of a stretch (external source allowing one to Preserve one's own strength), but I think the "survival" aspect of Snapping is also at play here.

Feruchemy is less direct, but it's a 'balance magic' between two Shards, so we probably shouldn't expect it to directly reflect either Shard's intent.

I don't think we know enough about how the Shaod works for AonDor or how people get the talent for Sand Mastery to judge those two systems. We know even less about the other Selish magic systems - but anyway these are also two-shard systems (due to the nature of the Dor I assume AonDor probably is too rather than being pure-Devotion, but who knows, guess AonDor could be all Aona & Dakhor all Skai/Dominion, but since there are more than three Selish systems I doubt it's that simple as it is on Scadrial).

 But  Even if it is hatred. I can't see that excluding it from being a bond based magic system after all what you knowhat unites and binds people more than a common hatred?

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 But  Even if it is hatred. I can't see that excluding it from being a bond based magic system after all what you knowhat unites and binds people more than a common hatred?

That's pretty close to a line from Elantris actually.

"You will find that hatred can unify men for more quickly, and far more powerfully, than devotion ever could."

Or something along those lines

[cometaryorbit]

The more I think about it, I'm tending to think there probably is no pure-Odium magic system, at least in the usual sense of magic system as something humans use.

Odium is primarily Invested in Braize, which doesn't have any "living" Physical Realm inhabitants, I think.

Now that Odium's Tone has become one of the True Tones of Roshar, maybe he's Invested there enough to create a magic system of his own - but I don't think it's appeared yet. Voidbinding is historically known, so not that.

[Frustration]

45 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

The more I think about it, I'm tending to think there probably is no pure-Odium magic system, at least in the usual sense of magic system as something humans use.

Odium is primarily Invested in Braize, which doesn't have any "living" Physical Realm inhabitants, I think.

Now that Odium's Tone has become one of the True Tones of Roshar, maybe he's Invested there enough to create a magic system of his own - but I don't think it's appeared yet. Voidbinding is historically known, so not that.

Cultivation is on Roshar but Ashyn was her magic.

[cometaryorbit]

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

Cultivation is on Roshar but Ashyn was her magic.

True, but Odium IIRC specifically was trying *not* to Invest in planets much (at least historically). I don't think he wanted to Invest to a level that would create a magic system (though it might be possible on Roshar *now*, with the Pure Tones thing).

Odium's "people" on Braize are Cognitive Shadows and spren, who probably don't use a "magic system" in the same sense humans do. So a Braize-native Odium magic probably was never invented/discovered/actualized/whatever. (If it did exist, sure, it would work on Roshar.)

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by cometaryorbit
repeated word

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

True, but Odium IIRC specifically was trying *not* to Invest in planets much (at least historically). I don't think he wanted to Invest to a level that would create a magic system (though it might be possible on Roshar *now*, with the Pure Tones thing).

Odium's "people" on Braize are Cognitive Shadows and spren, who probably don't use a "magic system" in the same sense humans do. So a Braize-native Odium magic probably was never invented/discovered/actualized/whatever. (If it did exist, sure, it would work on Roshar.)

Shards don't have much of a choice, if they stay in one spot long enough it will happen, whether they want it to or not.

[cometaryorbit]

Well, OK, but the thing is there are apparently no Physical Realm intelligent beings on Braize (the Fused are presumably disembodied while there). So even if Odium's presence on Braize creates the potential for an Odium-based, Braize-native magic system, there is no one to actually discover it, no one with the appropriate Connection to use it, so it effectively doesn't exist.

I doubt this is unintentional; Odium probably picked a planet without Physical people (unlike Ashyn and Roshar itself) so they wouldn't be running around using his Investiture.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 21.12.2021 at 9:21 PM, cometaryorbit said:

This does seem the simplest model - but I think the WoB that Voidbinding "not always, but usually" comes from the Unmade rules it out, because if that model is true it would "usually" come from less powerful sapient Voidspren like Ulim, not the Unmade.

Provided the Voidspren are prone to bind. Apparently they are not. Voidbinding as a whole is rare. If it weren't, why would Odium make Surgebinders and Regals?

Secondly, the WoB is literally true. All Voidbinding we have seen so far comes indirectly from Sja-Anat.

On 31.12.2021 at 2:13 AM, cometaryorbit said:

If Renarin is Voidbinding, the Initiation of that system still would involve binding spren, which is a Honor kind of thing.

• Aviars?
• Honor's original system are the Honorblades

On 31.12.2021 at 2:13 AM, cometaryorbit said:

A pure Odium system would presumably have an Initiation based on negative emotions (hate, fury, etc.) or enmity with someone/something or maybe based on shattering, dividing, or destroying part of yourself?

You just pick up a Honorblade. No strings attached. And the oaths needed to be artificially imposed on the Spren. I am sorry, but that conclusion is just unwarranted.

 

On 31.12.2021 at 8:43 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I don't know; of the five systems we really understand the Initiation for, three are extremely direct and straightforward connections - Awakening's connection to Endowment (Breaths must be given by intent)

I am sorry, but no. Everybody is potentially an Awakener. You just need Breath. The one you are born with will do just fine (If it is enough)

On 31.12.2021 at 8:43 PM, cometaryorbit said:

, Hemalurgy's connection to Ruin (power must be stolen at a loss - entropy), and Surgebinding's connection to Honor (a bond is formed by oaths).

No. Skyeels and Rhyshadiums surely do not swear oaths. Neither did the people who picked up a Honorblade. Nor did some of the squires. Nor did Kaladin himself in the beginning. The oaths are an addition.

On 31.12.2021 at 8:43 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Allomancy's a bit more of a stretch (external source allowing one to Preserve one's own strength), but I think the "survival" aspect of Snapping is also at play here.

Again, no. Lerasium does not require snapping. Nor do people who get the power hemalurgically need to snap. Snapping is a detail.

 

 

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Well, OK, but the thing is there are apparently no Physical Realm intelligent beings on Braize (the Fused are presumably disembodied while there). So even if Odium's presence on Braize creates the potential for an Odium-based, Braize-native magic system, there is no one to actually discover it, no one with the appropriate Connection to use it, so it effectively doesn't exist.

Shards invest their entire Star system, not just their planet, doesn't matter if he's on Braize or not, after enough time a magic system will form, and it will be useable by Roshar.

[+Child of Hodor]

Quote

Argent

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

Argent

Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson

No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

Footnote: The chart referenced is the back endsheet in The Way of Kings.
Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

Quote

Chaos

You've recently said that Rosharans call everything Surgebinding. So my question is: does Khriss call what the Fused do "Surgebinding"?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Chaos

Interesting. We still don't know what Voidbinding is, but we'll get there eventually, I'm sure.

Brandon Sanderson

You will.

Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021)

 

It's not clear to me that we've seen voidbinding yet. If the Fused don't do it and Renarin isn't doing it then I don't think anyone is.  I do agree with the OP that the power of future sight that Renarin displays is a voidbinding power, but he isn't voidbinding to do it according to the first WoB . 

The Shardcast briefly mentioned a theory a while ago that the Voidbinding chart is actually from back 5 events. Like voidbinding doesn't fully exist in the front 5.  Brandon is messing with us by putting that chart in the second book.  

Perhaps the end of book 5 will see a change in the Shard makeup like Odium merges with a Shard or is split in half and both Honor and Cultivation each take half. I think Odium needs to be fully integrated in the KR / Surgebinding magic system to alter it to voidbinding.  

Renarin is the closest to a voidbinder that we've seen and what's unique about him is he has KR that's been infused with Odium investiture. I think that needs to happen on a grander scale to the Surgebinding magic system. To be clear I don't think all the existing Spren will all become "enlightened" in the way Glys was, but if one or both of the Shards that power the KR magic system incorporate Odium into themselves it will fundamentally change the magic system. 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Child of Hodor

[Frustration]

59 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Renarin isn't doing it then I don't think anyone is.  I do agree with the OP that the power of future sight that Renarin displays is a voidbinding power, but he isn't voidbinding to do it according to the first WoB . 

The first line disagrees

Quote

Argent

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds

Argent actually has a topic where he talks about a time he met with Brandon and got a WoB that he wasn't allowed to put into the arcanum, Brandon confirms Renarin is Voidbinding there.

The way I read it Brandon is saying that "Using Stormlight to power different abilities to Surgebinding" is not Voidbinding.

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

The Shardcast briefly mentioned a theory a while ago that the Voidbinding chart is actually from back 5 events. Like voidbinding doesn't fully exist in the front 5.  Brandon is messing with us by putting that chart in the second book.

Voidbinding has been used before

[cometaryorbit]

17 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

 

• Aviars?
• Honor's original system are the Honorblades

You just pick up a Honorblade. No strings attached. And the oaths needed to be artificially imposed on the Spren. I am sorry, but that conclusion is just unwarranted.

 

I am sorry, but no. Everybody is potentially an Awakener. You just need Breath. The one you are born with will do just fine (If it is enough)

No. Skyeels and Rhyshadiums surely do not swear oaths. Neither did the people who picked up a Honorblade.

Honorblades are in fact bonded (yes, WoBs conflict on this, but it was later clarified).

I doubt the entire system of oaths was artificially imposed on the spren, but yeah it could be read that way.

Awakening is all about giving away Breath, Endowing part of your life in an object, just as people give Breaths to other people or the Returned.

The Heralds swore an oath to Honor, and received the Honorblades. I don't think skyeels and Rhyshadiums are using Surgebinding, they're using Roshar's pre-Shattering natural magic.

And no, not everything with bonds is from Honor - seons bond too. But that fits Devotion's intent. It doesn't fit Odium.

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

And no, not everything with bonds is from Honor - seons bond too. But that fits Devotion's intent. It doesn't fit Odium.

Odium and Honor are far more aligned than you seem to think

[LewsTherinTelescope]

18 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And the oaths needed to be artificially imposed on the Spren.

This is a theory, but not confirmed.