Unsourced worldhoppers

[+Oltux72]

So we got new Shards. At least some of them must be residing on populated worlds with Arcane Arts of their own or with migrants from other worlds. Those are prone to have perpendicularities. Hence they can originate worldhoppers. Can we try to find worldhoppers whose origin is odd?

1. Sixteen - OK, that is the most unsatisfying answer to his identity, but such people must exist
2. The Iri - we should have noticed strange golden hair on known worlds
3. The Feruchemists in Rhythm of War (I suspect them to be from Misery's world. Which Shard would be likelier to take in refugees?)

[apepi]

There is also the Ire(who probably are connected to the Iri).

The Rosharian humans are also world hoppers technically, along with the Sleepless.

 

I do think you mean to talk about the 17th and Mercy, not 16 and Misery?

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, apepi said:

There is also the Ire(who probably are connected to the Iri).

They seem to be clearly connected to Elantris.

2 hours ago, apepi said:

The Rosharian humans are also world hoppers technically, along with the Sleepless.

Yes, but sourced. They come from Ashyn.

2 hours ago, apepi said:

I do think you mean to talk about the 17th and Mercy, not 16 and Misery?

Mercy, yes sorry. But Sixteen, whom Shallan ambushed in Lasting Integrity.

[jamesbondsmith]

Why wouldn't the Feruchemists be from Scadrial? I understand the point about which Shard would take in refugees, but why do we need to assume that the Terris went bouncing around planets and not just assume that they came to Roshar from the planet they already lived on?

[+Oltux72]

16 minutes ago, jamesbondsmith said:

Why wouldn't the Feruchemists be from Scadrial? I understand the point about which Shard would take in refugees, but why do we need to assume that the Terris went bouncing around planets and not just assume that they came to Roshar from the planet they already lived on?

There are a couple of indications. None of them definitely proves anything, but together they are suspicious.

• Rhythm of War strongly suggests that neither of the Terrispeople in question was a Ghostblood
• How do you recruit Terrispeople from Scadrial without Harmony or Thaidakar knowing?
• The Terris of Scadrial were pacifist hippies to an extreme degree at that time
• We have depiction with multiple rings. That suggests a full Feruchemist
• One of them was good enough with Connection to pick up a language from another species. Years before the time of The Way of Kings and that was years before The Bands of Mourning when the more exotic forms of Feruchemy were still ill understood on Scadrial and duralumium must have been worth a fortune. And in Northern Scadrial the only known foreign language was the Terris language at that time. How would she have trained?
• She fled off plaet, hence was not directly working for Odium

And finally during the early days of the Final Empire every Terris man had two very good reasons to flee. (Sorry, I could not resist that).

[Bejarden]

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Rhythm of War strongly suggests that neither of the Terrispeople in question was a Ghostblood

Where

 

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

How do you recruit Terrispeople from Scadrial without Harmony or Thaidakar knowing?

My answer is contingent on what RoW says

 

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The Terris of Scadrial were pacifist hippies to an extreme degree at that time

We can assume that not all Terris are alike and there would be dissenters

 

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

We have depiction with multiple rings. That suggests a full Feruchemist

These could be multiple metal minds if the same kind

Gerah was defeated very easily, by someone with no powers. I find it hard to believe he’s a full fuerchemist as one would fill his metal minds before leaving

11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

She fled off plaet, hence was not directly working for Odium

This is obviously a bigger group at hand and they would probably have safe houses on multiple planets

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

And finally during the early days of the Final Empire every Terris man had two very good reasons to flee. (Sorry, I could not resist that).

How would they get into the pits?

And the Well was not an option

If you could get me that quote it would be great and would clear things up

[jamesbondsmith]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

There are a couple of indications. None of them definitely proves anything, but together they are suspicious.

• Rhythm of War strongly suggests that neither of the Terrispeople in question was a Ghostblood
• How do you recruit Terrispeople from Scadrial without Harmony or Thaidakar knowing?
• The Terris of Scadrial were pacifist hippies to an extreme degree at that time
• We have depiction with multiple rings. That suggests a full Feruchemist
• One of them was good enough with Connection to pick up a language from another species. Years before the time of The Way of Kings and that was years before The Bands of Mourning when the more exotic forms of Feruchemy were still ill understood on Scadrial and duralumium must have been worth a fortune. And in Northern Scadrial the only known foreign language was the Terris language at that time. How would she have trained?
• She fled off plaet, hence was not directly working for Odium

And finally during the early days of the Final Empire every Terris man had two very good reasons to flee. (Sorry, I could not resist that).

Who says Harmony/Thaidakar didn't know? Gavilar's Terriswoman bailed because she was found out by another party, but I don't recall any specifics on who that other party was. I don't feel like there's any reason why she couldn't have just been good enough to slip off Scadrial and wasn't detected until later, and the other Terrisman was killed by Mraize, so it's not as if he had spent his entire time under the radar.

We have the very famously non-pacifist non-hippies in Wax and Wayne, not to mention the psychos that Wax has dealt with

Spoiler

like his sister, the man kidnapping Allomancer women for a breeding program and the boy who tortured/possibly vivisected non-Terrispeople.

Even if they were a monoculture, there would still be outliers.

The multiple rings could be for a multi-faceted attribute like senses, or just to have backups. Besides, if I was a Ferring I might well wear decoy rings made of metals I couldn't use. 'Haha, I stole your goldmind!' *gets face bashed in by a Pewter Ferring*. This could also tie in with the Connection issue. 

Continuing with connection, First Era Stormlight is 15-ish years before Wax and Wayne, so there's plenty of time for them to have figured out Duralumin feruchemy (edit: may be misremembering bits with regards to the more spiritual feruchemy and how widespread it is, but I'm pretty sure the southerners were good enough to have unkeyed duraluminminds).

As for fleeing off-world, I don't see why that means she can't be Scadrian born (or a generation or two removed). Besides, we know Gavilar was trying to bring about a Desolation for his own sinister/religious nutjob reasons. Why wouldn't he have procured the voidspren?

Edit: @Bejardin1250 covered some things too.

Edited June 20, 2021 by jamesbondsmith

[+Oltux72]

10 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Where

• Mraize killed Gereh
• Axindweth fled off planet. Why would a Ghostblood with access to many bases on Roshar flee off world?

Even if one of them was a Ghostblood, we are left with determining who the other group was

10 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

We can assume that not all Terris are alike and there would be dissenters

So somebody off planet managed to recruit two people from among the small number of dissenters of a small minority population? Possible, yes. Likely, no.

10 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

These could be multiple metal minds if the same kind

Theoretically obviously, yes.

But ... These rings were conspicious. In both cases they looked odd to casual observers. And with bracers on arms and ankles you can cover a lot of metal. Even if they were tin, how many metalminds do you need? And one of them impersonated a Vorin woman. She could put loads of rings on her safehand. That really suggests that they were running out of slots.

10 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Gerah was defeated very easily, by someone with no powers. I find it hard to believe he’s a full fuerchemist as one would fill his metal minds before leaving

Somebody who has a connection to Scadrial is best suited to killing a Feruchemist. And Mraize has an Aviar and maybe enough Breaths for a Lifesense. He has powers.

10 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

This is obviously a bigger group at hand and they would probably have safe houses on multiple planets

Exactly. Fleeing off planet means travelling over a thousand kilometers to the Horneater Peaks. Or she had a way to open a temporary perpendicularity. That would make her very exotic.

10 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

How would they get into the pits?

And the Well was not an option

If you could get me that quote it would be great and would clear things up

That is a very good question. Two possible answers:

• During the early Final Empire The Lord Ruler's control over everything was not as tight. It took centuries of war.
• Impersonating some noble's steward

We know that the Terris had some (indirect) access to the pits at an unknown time, as they knew the Feruchemical properties of atium.

11 hours ago, jamesbondsmith said:

The multiple rings could be for a multi-faceted attribute like senses, or just to have backups. Besides, if I was a Ferring I might well wear decoy rings made of metals I couldn't use. 'Haha, I stole your goldmind!' *gets face bashed in by a Pewter Ferring*. This could also tie in with the Connection issue. 

That works only on a world whose people know what Feruchemists are. Hence, not Roshar.

11 hours ago, jamesbondsmith said:

Continuing with connection, First Era Stormlight is 15-ish years before Wax and Wayne, so there's plenty of time for them to have figured out Duralumin feruchemy (edit: may be misremembering bits with regards to the more spiritual feruchemy and how widespread it is, but I'm pretty sure the southerners were good enough to have unkeyed duraluminminds).

Southerners. Terrismen live in the north.

15 years + plus the time between Gavilar's death and SA1 + time between discovery of the parshmen and Gavilar's death + plus the time she needed to master that ability.
In other words decades.

 

[Bejarden]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

• Mraize killed Gereh
• Axindweth fled off planet. Why would a Ghostblood with access to many bases on Roshar flee off world?

Even if one of them was a Ghostblood, we are left with determining who the other group was

Quote

Lets assume that Gerah is working for Harmony and Axindweth is working for GB’s

If Acindweth Rosharan cover is blown why would she stay on Roshar? The GB operation is huge. Anywhere else is better

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Somebody who has a connection to Scadrial is best suited to killing a Feruchemist. And Mraize has an Aviar and maybe enough Breaths for a Lifesense. He has powers.

Quote

I don’t know…

Full Feurechrmists are really powerful (WoA) and Gerah would probably have full metal minds before he leaves, right? (Sorry if I already said this)

Would an Awakener be able to fight that and come off unscarred? I don’t think so…

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

• During the early Final Empire The Lord Ruler's control over everything was not as tight. It took centuries of war.
• Impersonating some noble's steward

We know that the Terris had some (indirect) access to the pits at an unknown time, as they knew the Feruchemical properties of atium.

Yep this works

 

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That works only on a world whose people know what Feruchemists are. Hence, not Roshar.

Well Gerah could have known about other WorldHoppers and could have been trying to fool them

 

[+Oltux72]

42 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Lets assume that Gerah is working for Harmony and Axindweth is working for GB’s

• Harmony has Kandra
• A Feruchemist with an Aviar from Scadrial?
• Would the Ghostbloods simply murder an agent of Harmony?

42 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

If Acindweth Rosharan cover is blown why would she stay on Roshar? The GB operation is huge. Anywhere else is better

Roshar is a very big place. She has a lot of places where she can operate. She blew the whole operation without alerting alternate local support? And why use a Feruchemist to depose a gem if you have multiple local operatives? And the big elephant in the room, why would the Ghostbloods help Odium years before the Everstorm?

42 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Full Feurechrmists are really powerful (WoA) and Gerah would probably have full metal minds before he leaves, right? (Sorry if I already said this)

In a package in his quarters presumably, yes.

42 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Would an Awakener be able to fight that and come off unscarred? I don’t think so…

Why fight? Mraize looks like a guard. Approach under a pretense and then spike him.

42 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Well Gerah could have known about other WorldHoppers and could have been trying to fool them

Why draw attention to himself in the first place?

 

Again, nothing conclusive, just contradictions. But they all fall away if you give up a central assumption: They come from a known world and faction.

[Bejarden]

47 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why fight? Mraize looks like a guard. Approach under a pretense and then spike him.

Quote

This is the only way it works. If Gerah was spiked with something that either stole his:

Gold, or everything 

48 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

• Harmony has Kandra
• A Feruchemist with an Aviar from Scadrial?
• Would the Ghostbloods simply murder an agent of Harmony?

Fine point taken he’s probably not an Agent of Harmony

But he could be a 17th Sharder from Silverlight

Having escaped through the pits in FE

I’m just saying there are many places he could be from that we’ve seen or heard from

50 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

And why use a Feruchemist to depose a gem if you have multiple local operatives? And the big elephant in the room, why would the Ghostbloods help Odium years before the Everstorm?

The golden question: Why? None of this makes any sense

 

51 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

In a package in his quarters presumably, yes.

I would assume he’d be wearing them with his earrings 

[mathiau]

Quote

Sixteen - OK, that is the most unsatisfying answer to his identity, but such people must exist

If we hear more about Sxiteen's world before we know where he's from it won't be unsatisfying

Quote

The Iri - we should have noticed strange golden hair on known worlds

I don't know, they almost certainly originate from Yolen but we have no idea whether they left significant amount of their population on the 2nd or 3rd lands

On 19/06/2021 at 6:08 PM, Oltux72 said:

The Feruchemists in Rhythm of War (I suspect them to be from Misery's world. Which Shard would be likelier to take in refugees?)

As for Ferruchemists I think they come from multiple places and most of them would not be descendants of refugees. Some are from Silverlight, other from the 17th and other are ghostblood to whom Kelsier granted that power.

Edited June 21, 2021 by mathiau

[+Oltux72]

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

But he could be a 17th Sharder from Silverlight

Already on Roshar many years before the Everstorm? He was chief steward. You don't just show up at Kholinar palace and be promoted chief steward. We are talking decades of invested time here. Whoever sent him must have had access to Fortune and a lot of resources.

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

The golden question: Why? None of this makes any sense

But it does if Axindweth works for Mercy on loan to Odium, who needed human agents to work among Rosharans.

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

 

I would assume he’d be wearing them with his earrings 

Sazed kept them in a bag.

[Bejarden]

13 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Already on Roshar many years before the Everstorm? He was chief steward. You don't just show up at Kholinar palace and be promoted chief steward. We are talking decades of invested time here. Whoever sent him must have had access to Fortune and a lot of resources.

Quote

Like the 17th Shard an organization hundreds if not thousands of years old (probably thousands ) 

 

14 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But it does if Axindweth works for Mercy on loan to Odium, who needed human agents to work among Rosharans.

Quote

And then Axindweth did nothing needing her skill set and left?

All she did was attend Gavilar and give a gemstone to a Listener

I guess you could say it was for her knack with languages but one does not hire someone from a Shard for something so trivial that you can figure out on your own

 

[Honorless]

Axindweth gave me the vibes that she might've been from before Rashek's Ascension.

19 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And finally during the early days of the Final Empire every Terris man had two very good reasons to flee. (Sorry, I could not resist that).

Chokes on tea

Ahem. I'm not sure about the guy though. He gave me the impression that he may have been a defector from the Ghostbloods or from a rival organization.

[Lunu’anaki]

On 6/20/2021 at 2:29 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

How would they get into the pits?

And the Well was not an option

If you could get me that quote it would be great and would clear things up

It's important to remember that the final empire was not as structured and perfected in the early years. The Pits may have been much more open or the Lord Ruler's Palace may have been under construction. There's a huge number of ways someone could have accessed a perpendicularity over a 1000 year period, especially a full feruchemist. Worldhoppers were doing it too. There are WOBs saying The Lord Ruler was aware of worlhoppers' existence on Scadrial. 

[Bejarden]

3 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

It's important to remember that the final empire was not as structured and perfected in the early years. The Pits may have been much more open or the Lord Ruler's Palace may have been under construction. There's a huge number of ways someone could have accessed a perpendicularity over a 1000 year period, especially a full feruchemist. Worldhoppers were doing it too. There are WOBs saying The Lord Ruler was aware of worlhoppers' existence on Scadrial. 

Well Terrisman would be more constricted but I understand that it’s not a strong question and could be answered 

[+Oltux72]

On 21.6.2021 at 3:44 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

And then Axindweth did nothing needing her skill set and left?

Located the right recipient on a whole planet. Got her second cargo the the right recipient even after detection. Escaped the Ghostbloods.

 

[Bejarden]

20 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Located the right recipient on a whole planet. Got her second cargo the the right recipient even after detection. Escaped the Ghostbloods.

 

Why do you need a Fuerchemist for that? Anybody that is proficient at reading body language could have done it. Especially why would you hire someone from another Shard world.

And Venli was definitely not the only one on Roshar capable of following basic instructions 

And when did she escape the GB’s?

[+Oltux72]

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Why do you need a Fuerchemist for that? Anybody that is proficient at reading body language could have done it.

Basic military conservativism. You do not know what you'll face. Hence you send the big guns. The price of failure is a Voidspren who knows too much in enemy hands.

And no, you needed a Listener and a specifically a Listener who could credibly find new forms. They were in contact only with the Alethi court, who would not advertise and grant free access to their remarkable new Parshendi.

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Especially why would you hire someone from another Shard world.

The spren came in from Shadesmar. You need a worldhopper. And finding a Rosharan who cooperates in bringing back the Voidbringers may not be so easy.

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

And when did she escape the GB’s?

They were there. Remember the old Ghostblood base in the Shattered Plains.

[Bejarden]

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Basic military conservativism. You do not know what you'll face. Hence you send the big guns. The price of failure is a Voidspren who knows too much in enemy hands.

And no, you needed a Listener and a specifically a Listener who could credibly find new forms. They were in contact only with the Alethi court, who would not advertise and grant free access to their remarkable new Parshendi.

The spren came in from Shadesmar. You need a worldhopper. And finding a Rosharan who cooperates in bringing back the Voidbringers may not be so easy.

They were there. Remember the old Ghostblood base in the Shattered Plains.

Odium probably knew what was there, I would assume. He knows there is no danger, why hire someone for nothing?

All they needed was a regular listener, (for the gem heart) Odium knew they were their and could have sent literally anyone with sufficient spy skills. They also did not need someone who can find forms on their own, the listeners would accept anyone who discovered Warform

Shadesmar=\=worldhopper, all you need is the horneater peaks

But the GB didn’t know she was there and that’s true for any spy that would be sent

 

[+Bzhydack]

On 20.06.2021 at 8:29 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

Gerah was defeated very easily, by someone with no powers. I find it hard to believe he’s a full fuerchemist as one would fill his metal minds before leaving

I would not count Mraize as "Without powers", also even powerfull magic user can be take down by surprice (like Jasnah, or Lift).

 

On 21.06.2021 at 2:22 PM, Oltux72 said:

• Harmony has Kandra
• A Feruchemist with an Aviar from Scadrial?
• Would the Ghostbloods simply murder an agent of Harmony?

There is fun theory about it, in short - Gereth is Harmonny agent, but not the main one - his Aviar is main one, because it isnt really Aviar but Kandra.

On 21.06.2021 at 7:59 AM, Oltux72 said:

 

But ... These rings were conspicious. In both cases they looked odd to casual observers. And with bracers on arms and ankles you can cover a lot of metal. Even if they were tin, how many metalminds do you need? And one of them impersonated a Vorin woman. She could put loads of rings on her safehand. That really suggests that they were running out of slots.

If he was Duralumin Ferring is possible he has stored Connections to many different things in many metalminds. Like Alik said, Connection always is to something, so specific Connection should be possible to store (like Specific sense, or specific memory).

But yes, is something very suspicious about both Feruchemists. We know some Scadrians live off-world or in Shadesmar, Iyatil is descendent of Sothern Scadrians who lived off-world. So is very possible there are some Feruchemists outside Scadrial - before FE Terrisans have knowledge about Well of Ascenntion, maybe they knew also about Pits? They know about Atium after all.

[mathiau]

29 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

I would not count Mraize as "Without powers", also even powerfull magic user can be take down by surprice (like Jasnah, or Lift).

It's almost certain Mraize has access to either A-Zinc or A-Brass

[Bejarden]

50 minutes ago, mathiau said:

It's almost certain Mraize has access to either A-Zinc or A-Brass

Well I am too (His Aviar or something ) but that doesn’t really help in this case

Edited June 24, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[Isilel]

On 20 June 2021 at 8:15 PM, Oltux72 said:

 

• We have depiction with multiple rings. That suggests a full Feruchemist
• One of them was good enough with Connection to pick up a language from another species. Years before the time of The Way of Kings and that was years before The Bands of Mourning when the more exotic forms of Feruchemy were still ill understood on Scadrial and duralumium must have been worth a fortune. And in Northern Scadrial the only known foreign language was the Terris language at that time. How would she have trained?

They need be neither full Feruchemists nor even natural Ferrings as long as they have access to the South Scadrial medallions. Or spikes, I guess. We only saw Axindweth use Connection - both to speak languages and to quickly worm herself into the confidence of strangers, so she may have been a Connector and different kinds of Connection would have required different storages. But she could have also had a medallion or three, or a spike or three instead of or in combination with it.

BTW, we saw a number of rather murderous Ferrings in the Second Era books, so they aren't all pacifists.