Worldhopping forger

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

Could a worldhopping forger (like Shai from emperors soul) use a soul stamp to give themselves powers from other worlds? Like, could they change their soul to become a level 4 radiant, or an allomancer, or anything else? 

Discuss

[Frustration]

Nothing to discuss we know they can't

Spoiler

Questioner

Could a Forger re-write their history to adjust the kind of metal they burn as an Allomancer?

Brandon Sanderson

They could, but it actually wouldn't do anything, because the magic would not be able to replicate the other magic.

Questioner

So they would not be able to re-write history in the necessary way?

Brandon Sanderson

They would not be able to. I mean they could, but it wouldn’t have an effect, does that make sense? It would do nothing, it would be like you can create the stamp, the stamp would look like it was working but you just wouldn't end up with Allomancy.

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

Questioner

Could a Forger re-write their history to adjust the kind of metal they burn as an Allomancer?

Brandon Sanderson

They could, but it actually wouldn't do anything, because the magic would not be able to replicate the other magic.

Questioner

So they would not be able to re-write history in the necessary way?

Brandon Sanderson

They would not be able to. I mean they could, but it wouldn’t have an effect, does that make sense? It would do nothing, it would be like you can create the stamp, the stamp would look like it was working but you just wouldn't end up with Allomancy.

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

 

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

That's from 6 years ago, and not Canon. He can change his mind. He's done it before. That's the nice thing about wobs. There's wriggle room. 

[Quantus]

No for several reasons, but the biggest is that when you use a Soulstamp to change somebody, the stamp itself has to do the job of whatever additional things it creates, and Stamps are too fragile to actually channel much Investiture.  The statement is specifically relating to Allomancy, but we can extrapolate to several other powers on the same Tier.  You couldnt get Surges without Investiture equivalent to a Spren, or Awakening without the equivalent to enough Breathes.  Feruchemy probably has the best chance of being under the Forgery energy cap since it's powered by the user's own Investiture instead of a direct Connection to Preservation, which is why in the Above WOB it would work but not Do Anything, because you've essentially made a firehose that is connected to nothing.  But then you still have to make Selish magics operate off-world, which is it's own separate challenge. 

 

2 minutes ago, Mistborn Surgebinder said:

That's from 6 years ago, and not Canon. He can change his mind. He's done it before. That's the nice thing about wobs. There's wriggle room. 

Here is a more recent one if that helps.  If you are going to throw out the WOB evidence entirely though, Im not sure what else we can offer you.  How different worlds magics interact is almost exclusively in the realm of WOB, so that's the only data we have to work with. 

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it be possible to use a soulstamp to give or take Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not under normal circumstances. The amount of Investiture required to do so would effectively short-circuit the stamp.

American Fork High School Signing (Dec. 12, 2019)

 

 

 

 

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

I'm not throwing out wobs entirely. I just thought it was a cool idea and wasnt ready to give up on it yet. I got my answer now and I shall crawl back into my hole.

[Quantus]

3 hours ago, Mistborn Surgebinder said:

I'm not throwing out wobs entirely. I just thought it was a cool idea and wasnt ready to give up on it yet. I got my answer now and I shall crawl back into my hole.

Sorry, that sounded harsh, I didnt mean it that way! Dont go! 

I just meant that WOB's will always have that disclaimer attached to them so especially this one is a topic where you have to sort of take that bit as a given assumption and move on, at least until something happens in a book (or even later WOB) to contradict the original.  

 

[Fezzik]

@Mistborn SurgebinderSurgebinder, (and Quantum), here is a WoB from 2018 that you might like. Full text in spoiler.

"Fooling the magic via Connection and Identity is not so hard, under the right circumstances, so making a Forger into an Elantrian (or an Allomancer) for a short time is plausible. Making yourself into a Radiant, however, would be more difficult--because the limitations placed on that magic have to do with persuading a sapient being you are worth the bond."

Spoiler

DTF_20170515
Why refrigerate food when you can just stamp spoiled food so that it was stored properly before?

Aurora_Fatalis
You'll have to ask Brandon how that'd interact with gastric acid breaking down the stamp. Or how porous/loose material interacts with stamps in the first place.
Come to think of it... There's a WoB saying the Nightwatcher could change your species, but have a hard time making a spren bond to you. So... could the Nightwatcher turn you Scadrian and make you eligible for Allomantic powers? Or does the Nightwatcher's boons operate on soulstamp principles?
Hell, let's say you bought a vial of the wrong metal on your field trip to Sel. Could you pay a Forger to stamp the vial into being a vial of the right metal (it's believable that you would check before such an important trip) and then drink the metal contained in the vial to fuel your Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson
All right, all right. Let's see... /u/Aurora_Fatalis, changing metals around with other forms of Investiture is generally going to work, according to how I view the magic right now. The power is there, you just need to align the matter the right way. So forging new metals: not too difficult. This is because Allomancy isn't actually using Investiture in the metals, but using it as a key to get power from somewhere else.
Forging a sword to be a Shardblade, however, would be very, very difficult for multiple reasons. The most obvious one is that the Investiture required would be enormous. A Shardblade is a highly-Invested object, with its own self-aware soul.
If you could overcome the initial resistance invested objects have to being influenced by other magics (something that Forgery is particularly good at doing anyway) you'd theoretically be able to change Shardblade/spren's personality like you could a person's.
Fooling the magic via Connection and Identity is not so hard, under the right circumstances, so making a Forger into an Elantrian (or an Allomancer) for a short time is plausible. Making yourself into a Radiant, however, would be more difficult--because the limitations placed on that magic have to do with persuading a sapient being you are worth the bond.

Aurora_Fatalis
How about regular food? If I stamp a pineapple pizza into a pepperoni pizza and eat it, what nutrients do I end up with?

Brandon Sanderson
The way I have it working now, I believe (though I'd have to do some double-checking, as it's been a while since I've been working on Sel) soulstamps are more fragile than things like Aons, and it would be very hard to eat something with one without breaking it. But assuming you could, you'd get nutrients from what it had become--but those would change back once the stamp broke or ran out.
It is possible to go so far down this rabbit hole, however, that the chemistry of Forging (like the physics of Allomancy) it just can't make sense any more. So be aware.

Oversleep
With things like Stamping metals for Allomancy, you have said that it'd be possible for short time, but then burning it would break the Seal and metal would revert back.
I guess it would be similar with food, right?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes, that's the big problem with Forging. Getting the stamp to stay in place once you start to change the object that has been stamped.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e10961

ETA: here is another one that kind of pulls back on the leeway in the first WoB, calling it Possible, but beyond Shai's ability.

Spoiler

MavenSoul
I'm wondering if Shai could create a stamp that would turn someone into an Allomancer. Or, alternatively, create a stamp that would break a bond between a Radiant and their Spren?

Brandon Sanderson
This is possible--but likely beyond Shai's ability. It would require large amounts of investiture. The second would be easier.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11253

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Fezzik

[+Harrycrapper]

Even if you disregard the WoB, the Forgery has to be possible for it to work. An Allomancer has to have access Preservation's Investiture, whether it be from the innate bit that each Scadrian has or they need Lerasium. If the person is not from Scadrial, I can't see how any Forgery could alter their past to the point where they were, I don't think they can alter events that precede their own birth. And to somehow Forge their past so that they encounter Lerasium, they'd need to know where some is at a specific point in time, if there even is some left after the events of HoA. It would be similar with other magic systems where the planet/locality in which you were born determines if you can become the respective magic user. The key here is that to alter the past to the point where you'd acquire access to a magic system, other things/people in the past would need to change too, and changes made through Forgery are localized to whatever entity is being stamped. So, you can't change your parents past to alter where you were born. This also wouldn't work with a Nahel Bond, as both you and the spren would need to choose to Bond, and a Soulstamp will not take on an entity as Invested as a spren. Even in the questioner's case in the WoB, if someone from Scadrial wanted to change what type of Allomancer they were, they'd need to know how that was determined, which no one does. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Harrycrapper

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

15 hours ago, Quantus said:

Sorry, that sounded harsh, I didnt mean it that way! Dont go! 

I just meant that WOB's will always have that disclaimer attached to them so especially this one is a topic where you have to sort of take that bit as a given assumption and move on, at least until something happens in a book (or even later WOB) to contradict the original.  

 

Oh oh oh. You didn't sound harsh. Sorry. I was referring to my habit of posting a little, then forgetting to come back on the forums for like 8 months. You guys are great. 

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

13 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

Even if you disregard the WoB, the Forgery has to be possible for it to work. An Allomancer has to have access Preservation's Investiture, whether it be from the innate bit that each Scadrian has or they need Lerasium. If the person is not from Scadrial, I can't see how any Forgery could alter their past to the point where they were, I don't think they can alter events that precede their own birth. And to somehow Forge their past so that they encounter Lerasium, they'd need to know where some is at a specific point in time, if there even is some left after the events of HoA. It would be similar with other magic systems where the planet/locality in which you were born determines if you can become the respective magic user. The key here is that to alter the past to the point where you'd acquire access to a magic system, other things/people in the past would need to change too, and changes made through Forgery are localized to whatever entity is being stamped. So, you can't change your parents past to alter where you were born. This also wouldn't work with a Nahel Bond, as both you and the spren would need to choose to Bond, and a Soulstamp will not take on an entity as Invested as a spren. Even in the questioner's case in the WoB, if someone from Scadrial wanted to change what type of Allomancer they were, they'd need to know how that was determined, which no one does. 

For the sake of argument (sorry about that), let's say this worldhopping forger spent a considerable amount of time with hoid, who we know is collecting magics. I posit that it would be both cool and possible (improbable but possible) for there to be a 2nd person in the cosmere able to use multiple magic systems, using forgery. Even for a relatively short time. I may be wrong. I would just love to see a fight between hoid and someone else using a bunch of different magics together sometime near the end of the cosmere. 

I completely understand everyone's points. This is just a scene in my head and I'm trying to find a way to make it work. 

[Fezzik]

You might be interested in this person, then. Nicknamed Hema-Hoid, this individual is also gathering powers.

Spoiler

Questioner

If Hemalurgy can be used to transfer Investiture regardless of the planet, is someone gathering pieces of different Investitures the way Hoid got, for example, the Lerasium bead?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

6 hours ago, Fezzik said:

You might be interested in this person, then. Nicknamed Hema-Hoid, this individual is also gathering powers.

  Hide contents

Questioner

If Hemalurgy can be used to transfer Investiture regardless of the planet, is someone gathering pieces of different Investitures the way Hoid got, for example, the Lerasium bead?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

I am now incredibly interested in this person, and am completely satisfied with how incredibly wrong my original idea was.  Thank you.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 5/21/2021 at 11:31 AM, Fezzik said:

You might be interested in this person, then. Nicknamed Hema-Hoid, this individual is also gathering powers.

  Hide contents

Questioner

If Hemalurgy can be used to transfer Investiture regardless of the planet, is someone gathering pieces of different Investitures the way Hoid got, for example, the Lerasium bead?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

...This is going to be a certain meddlesome Scadrian, isn’t it...

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

...This is going to be a certain meddlesome Scadrian, isn’t it...

I wasn't thinking about that but probably.

I'm kind of disappointed now, I was hoping for something more sinister.

[Kingsdaughter613]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I wasn't thinking about that but probably.

I'm kind of disappointed now, I was hoping for something more sinister.

...He isn’t?

[Frustration]

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

...He isn’t?

I wanted a villain who kills just for the sake of killing who doesn't even try to act nice.

I'll have to make due.

[Bejarden]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I wanted a villain who kills just for the sake of killing who doesn't even try to act nice.

I'll have to make due.

Have you ever read a book called ‘Scythe’

 You would enjoy it I think

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Have you ever read a book called ‘Scythe’

 You would enjoy it I think

I will add that to my TBR thank you.

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

11 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

...This is going to be a certain meddlesome Scadrian, isn’t it...

Holy sh... I wouldn't have thought of that.  Thinking back to Secret History, Kel v Hoid would be a looooong foreshadowed setup.  I really, really like this theory.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

I wasn't thinking about that but probably.

I'm kind of disappointed now, I was hoping for something more sinister.

Who says Kel isn't sinister?  He wantonly kills in Mistborn, and BrandoSando says he'd be the villain in any other story.  I can absolutely see Kelsier ending up becoming a force for evil who still thinks he's doing good.  He slaughters noblemen, he gets into a viscous fight with Hoid and threatens to murder him, he wants to punch every god he comes across, he refuses to let go, he's running what could potentially be a sinister organization (I know we don't know for sure, but it kinda feels that way and has from the beginning)...  Heck, his followers in Hero of Ages who most closely followed his precepts were murderous.  He was most touched by Ruin.  Honestly, I can see, in era 4, a group of Scadrians who consider themselves followers of Kel cruising around the cosmere causing trouble and needing to be stopped.  

The more I think about this, the more I like it.

[Kingsdaughter613]

20 minutes ago, Mistborn Surgebinder said:

Holy sh... I wouldn't have thought of that.  Thinking back to Secret History, Kel v Hoid would be a looooong foreshadowed setup.  I really, really like this theory.

Who says Kel isn't sinister?  He wantonly kills in Mistborn, and BrandoSando says he'd be the villain in any other story.  I can absolutely see Kelsier ending up becoming a force for evil who still thinks he's doing good.  He slaughters noblemen, he gets into a viscous fight with Hoid and threatens to murder him, he wants to punch every god he comes across, he refuses to let go, he's running what could potentially be a sinister organization (I know we don't know for sure, but it kinda feels that way and has from the beginning)...  Heck, his followers in Hero of Ages who most closely followed his precepts were murderous.  He was most touched by Ruin.  Honestly, I can see, in era 4, a group of Scadrians who consider themselves followers of Kel cruising around the cosmere causing trouble and needing to be stopped.  

The more I think about this, the more I like it.

I don’t think he’ll ever truly go full villain, if only because people named their kids for Kell back when he was presumed dead (in and out of world). There are also certain elements of his story and some things Brandon has said that would indicate Kelsier is on a (very slow) redemption arc.

I do think Kell will go through a point where he is more villainous though, only for his plans to either fail drastically or succeed horribly, which gives him the push he needs to realize he can’t keep working the way he currently is.

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

25 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I don’t think he’ll ever truly go full villain, if only because people named their kids for Kell back when he was presumed dead (in and out of world). There are also certain elements of his story and some things Brandon has said that would indicate Kelsier is on a (very slow) redemption arc.

I do think Kell will go through a point where he is more villainous though, only for his plans to either fail drastically or succeed horribly, which gives him the push he needs to realize he can’t keep working the way he currently is.

I think we need to see a Kell v hoid fight 2.0 where they both have multiple magics they can both use. Even if the stakes aren't big. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

17 minutes ago, Mistborn Surgebinder said:

I think we need to see a Kell v hoid fight 2.0 where they both have multiple magics they can both use. Even if the stakes aren't big. 

I think at this point Hoid may have trouble hurting Kell, due to the latter acquiring a body.

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think at this point Hoid may have trouble hurting Kell, due to the latter acquiring a body.

But if it's a body acquired by hemalurgy, there's a good chance hoid could still hurt him, I would guess. I feel like it's the fact that Kelsier is and will always be technically "dead" that gives hoid the ability to hurt him. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

49 minutes ago, Mistborn Surgebinder said:

But if it's a body acquired by hemalurgy, there's a good chance hoid could still hurt him, I would guess. I feel like it's the fact that Kelsier is and will always be technically "dead" that gives hoid the ability to hurt him. 

Then Hoid would be able to hurt Returned and Heralds, and he can’t. The only reason he’s able to hurt Kell is because Kelsier only thinks he’s being hurt.

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

18 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Then Hoid would be able to hurt Returned and Heralds, and he can’t. The only reason he’s able to hurt Kell is because Kelsier only thinks he’s being hurt.

Do we know that he can't hurt returned and heralds?