What Measure Is A Ripoff?

[jamesbondsmith]

As the title suggests, I'm a little concerned about accidentally plagiarising ideas.

For example, I have plans with some of my projects that might edge a little too close to Shannara and Horizon Zero Dawn 

Spoiler

what with high fantasy stories taking place in a post apocalyptic world and treating AIs as if they were 'spirits/gods'.

What concepts would you consider to be inextricably linked with a particular work?

Edited May 15, 2021 by jamesbondsmith

[Wyndlerunner]

Personally, I'd say at a conceptual level, very few world-building elements could be taken as plagiarism. I think it really all comes down to execution of the ideas, and the plot. If the plot of your work hinges too close to either of the works mentioned, people will be more likely to take it as 'too derivative'. Honestly, making use of these ideas might be a great way to entice the reader base you want to read your stories, in the same endearing way that we talk about things saying 'it's just like [Insert fictional work here]!' 

So with general conceptual things like what you've mentioned, I think you're fine to use them. If a concept brings to your mind only 1 very specific story, I'd avoid using it.

[Frustration]

It depends on execution, Eragon for example is a shameless rip off in every way and it feels like it. While others like Slathbog's Gold follow the same plotline as The Hobbit, but it seems more like a parallel than stolen because of how different it was.

[Bejarden]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

depends on execution, Eragon for example is a shameless rip off in every way and it feels like it

Oh this is so true.

Complete copy of WoT and LoTR even some of the names are the same

Spoiler

Forsworn and forsaken

C’mon man do some work

 

[BreezeCauthon]

The fact that you pointed to two separate things that you're worried you stole the idea from shows that it's fine. If it were just Shannara (fun fact, Terry Brooks was himself accused of ripping off LoTR) or just Horizon, then there might be an issue.

And since there's some discussion, yes, Eragon is a ripoff. But darnit, it's a good ripoff.

[Bejarden]

14 hours ago, BreezeCauthon said:

And since there's some discussion, yes, Eragon is a ripoff. But darnit, it's a good ripoff.

Hate to say it but Christopher Poloni did a great job on Eragon and is a great author

I read it before LoTR and WoT and I loved it, 

But then I read WoT and I realized it’s a complete ripoff so I hate it on principle 

[LuckyJim]

On 5/15/2021 at 4:23 PM, jamesbondsmith said:

As the title suggests, I'm a little concerned about accidentally plagiarising ideas.

For example, I have plans with some of my projects that might edge a little too close to Shannara and Horizon Zero Dawn 

  Hide contents

what with high fantasy stories taking place in a post apocalyptic world and treating AIs as if they were 'spirits/gods'.

What concepts would you consider to be inextricably linked with a particular work?

My philosophy is this, there's nothing wrong with taking concepts from another work at all. Nothing is off the table here, and you can take whatever it is you want, however you want. The only condition is this: you have to understand the elements you're taking on a conceptual level. You need to fully analyze what makes these concepts interesting, what makes them work, and why specifically you want to include them in your story. If you understand all that, it will come across as far more organic.

[mathiau]

The fact that you're "ripping of" the setting and not the events means you're probably fine, especially since you described it in a way "I use these tropes that these other works also used" way.

Edited July 15, 2021 by mathiau

[Frustration]

As long as it's different enough you don't want your reader to be like "Oh this is just the Mines of Moria"

*Cough* Tomb of Kings *Cough*

[GroundPetrel]

TBH it's very hard for an adult author to unintentionally rip off other work in a novel.  It does happen, but it's usually obvious.  Eragon for example is Star Wars with dragons--the plot is basically the same, complete with a Darth Vader to serve the offscreen Emperor, a princess to save, an edgy badass friend, and a special magic sword.  Sword of Truth is a bunch of Wheel of Time CONCEPTS with the serial numbers filed off with a much more tropey plotline, but I would argue it's not quite a ripoff.  (terrible series, but not a ripoff)  Wheel of Time starts off as a bunch of Star Wars and LOTR tropes mashed up and also draws inspiration from Arthurian myth and Slavic & Germanic mythology, but it's IMO ridiculously difficult, almost impossible, to argue that it's a ripoff.  

Heck, even if your work is inspired by another work...it can still be pretty original!  For example, I tried to do NaNo last year (before burning out due to the writing load in the middle of grad school) with a concept that was basically "The Boys, but less cynical and the Homelander character is intelligent", and the plot had nothing to do with The Boys outside of "evil corporation enacts conspiracy to gain power over the government", it's basically a detective story with a few super fights based around a divorced FBI agent lady who's a mind controller (initially without knowing it) and hates it.  

[mathiau]

2 hours ago, GroundPetrel said:

Eragon for example is Star Wars with dragons--the plot is basically the same, complete with a Darth Vader to serve the offscreen Emperor, a princess to save, an edgy badass friend, and a special magic sword.

This sentence describe something like a 3rd of fantasy book, including some far older than Star Wars.

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, GroundPetrel said:

Eragon for example is Star Wars with dragons--the plot is basically the same, complete with a Darth Vader to serve the offscreen Emperor, a princess to save, an edgy badass friend, and a special magic sword. 

It's closer to a LotR ripoff than starwars.

Long list of all simalrities

Spoiler

Paolini changed

Morgoth - Morgothal

Ancalagon the Black - [incert that one big dragon here]

Isenguard - Isenstar

Ringwraiths - Ra'zac

Valinor(Place) - Valinor(name)

 

And he kept

The same number of Unions between elves and men

The order the races came to the continent

An Elder "Gray Folk" more powerful than elves

Litterally the entire ending

And probably more I'm forgetting

 

[GroundPetrel]

On 7/18/2021 at 0:07 AM, Frustration said:

It's closer to a LotR ripoff than starwars.

Long list of all simalrities

  Hide contents

Paolini changed

Morgoth - Morgothal

Ancalagon the Black - [incert that one big dragon here]

Isenguard - Isenstar

Ringwraiths - Ra'zac

Valinor(Place) - Valinor(name)

 

And he kept

The same number of Unions between elves and men

The order the races came to the continent

An Elder "Gray Folk" more powerful than elves

Litterally the entire ending

And probably more I'm forgetting

 

I'm talking just about book 1 (I'd argue that the later books are much more original/not direct ripoffs, albeit with themes and elements that have been done before, but then I've devoted WAY too much time to Christopher Paolini and how he (1) was treated very unfairly by his anti-fans, (2) was held back as a writer by Eragon's success, and (3) actually has some good ideas underneath his overpromoted self-insert fanfic).  Book 1 has: 

1. Luke Skywalker/Eragon lives on a farm with his uncle.  He gets a Special thing/call to adventure.  Obi-Wan/Brom rescues him from danger.  He discovers that his uncle is dead at  the hands of Bad Guys and is angry and upset.  
2. Luke and Obi-Wan go to meet up with Rebels but get distracted after a couple brief fights with mooks by going in to Darth Vader/Durza's fortress to rescue a Princess.  Here Luke/Eragon sees how powerful Darth Vader is and Obi-Wan dies to save him but they escape with the Princess.  
3. Luke makes friends with a cool scoundrel (granted this is much later in the narrative and Murtagh is kinda different from Han but the general outline is still there) and they and the Princess get to the Rebels but are pursued by Bad Guys.  
4. Bad Guys led by Darth Vader arrive to destroy the Rebels.  The Rebels have a plucky plan that relies mostly on Luke being a badass and saving the day.  
5. Luke fights Darth Vader and gets his butt kicked pretty good but his friends arrive to distract Darth Vader and Luke saves the day.  

Some elements are a bit different but the outline is still pretty similar.  

[jamesbondsmith]

Resurrecting my own thread to focus on the second question in my original post, as I've noticed some more similarities between my ideas and existing works.

Are there any concepts/plots/archetypes that you consider to be impossible to separate from a particular work?

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, jamesbondsmith said:

Are there any concepts/plots/archetypes that you consider to be impossible to separate from a particular work?

I wouldn't say concepts are impossible to separate from a work, almost anything can feel new and unique if you twist it enough.

So let's say, a Wizard school, this can feel like a Hogwarts rip off, but if it only exists in dreams, and takes place in the vast reaches of interdimentional space, it feels different.