Questions about the extent of Odium's shackling

[+mdross81]

I was reading through all of the WoBs I could find on Odium recently, and have a question based on them and a certain passage from RoW.

The question is this: At present, can Odium send agents to or otherwise exert influence in any way on other planets in the Cosmere?

Background

This question is based on the following WoBs:

Quote

Kogiopsis (paraphrased)

Given that we now know that Odium can 'make it possible' for people to use magic that draws on him on other planets, has he done this anywhere besides Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium has been active on all other planets, including several we haven't seen yet.

Rithmatist Denver signing (May 16, 2013)

and

Quote

Questioner

Is there anything I should look at as a hint for something we haven’t figured out yet?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, that's a good question too. There are moments through the entire original trilogy that people haven't figured out yet. But they've picked out most of what they are, they just don't know why. Like they know something weird is happening, they don't know-- They haven't guessed why the weirdness is happening. The weirdness is figure-out-able, but it would be hard. But it's not outside of reason for you to figure out why these certain moments-- these moments people have not yet figured out.

Questioner

Because Odium had influence on Scadrial.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Not a ton, but yes.

Questioner

...Kelsier had an irrational hatred for Nobles.

Brandon Sanderson

He did, he did indeed.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

This question is also based on the following passage from Dalinar and Odium's conversation setting terms for the contest of champions in RoW 112:

Quote

"It's the matter of an Oath, Odium," Dalinar said. "You will restore to me Herdaz and Alethkar. Keep whatever other lands you've taken; they mostly followed you freely anyway. I can accept this, so long as you are still trapped on Roshar, as Honor wished."

"I will," Odium said, "though I will be able to focus my attentions on sending agents to the rest of the cosmere, using what I've conquered here as enough for now."

Questions

There's some ambiguity in the wording above as to whether or not Odium is currently able to send agents to the rest of the cosmere. Is he able to send agents, but just can't focus his attention on it because he's at war with Dalinar's forces? Or do the prohibitions Honor placed on Odium not currently allow him to send agents to other planets (assuming, or course, that he has any agents who are not constrained by Investiture ties to the Rosharan system)?

Supposing Odium has some agents out there from his previous exploits in the cosmere, can he send them around to do his bidding at present? Can Odium even make contact with them? Or is it a matter of him not having any agents and he wants to be able to send humans from Roshar because he can't send Fused or Regals who are bound to Roshar? I mean, we know that right now there are some humans on Roshar who have willingly joined Odium. Could Odium, at present, task some of the these humans with going out and doing his bidding in the wider cosmere by traveling through Shadesmar to other planets?

Aside from the question of sending agents, is Odium able to exert influence in any other way on other planets right now? We know that the restrictions placed by Honor prohibit him from traveling to other systems in the way he would need to in order to shatter any other Shards, but are there any other ways that he can nevertheless exert influence from afar? If not on his own, perhaps through an alliance with another Shard?

Implications if Odium is fully shackled

If Odium is not able to exert influence from afar, and has been unable to since Honor placed the restrictions on him, that has interesting implications for the timing of when Odium had influence on Scadrial. We know that Mistborn Era 2 takes place after the first five SA books, and 341 Scadrian years after the Catacendre. The contest of champions is slated to take place in the year 1175 on Roshar. If MB era 2 begins right after, then we can figure out roughly what year it was on Roshar when the events of MB era 1 took place.

Scadrian years and days are roughly the same length as Earth years/days, so converting 341 Scadrian years (assuming 365 24-hour days) to the 500-day (20 hours/day) Rosharan calendar yields about 300 Rosharan years (298.716). So then Mistborn Era 1 wrapped up around the year 875 on Roshar.

It's safe to assume that Odium's shackling has been in effect at least since Honor died, which happened shortly after the Recreance, which Jofwu's timeline places in the year -828. For the sake of nice numbers, let's call it -825. So counting back from the end of era 1 in 875 to -825 is 1,700 Rosharan years during which Odium would have been unable to influence other planets in the Cosmere. That's roughly 1,940 Scadrian years.

If Odium has truly been unable to exert influence outside of the Rosharan system for all of that time, then that places Odium's influence on Scadrial more than 900 years before Rashek even Ascended to become the Lord Ruler (he had ruled for 1,000 years when era 1 started). That's kinda crazy to think about, and impressive if the influence had a lasting enough impact to have anything to do with Kelsier's hatred of the nobility (as implied by the questioner in the 2nd WoB above).

Of course, all of this could be off if Odium is somehow exerting influence in the cosmere by working in league with another Shard who is not similarly restrained.

I grant that we probably just don't know enough yet to answer many of the questions raised above, but I'm curious what folks think.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

38 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

and impressive if the influence had a lasting enough impact to have anything to do with Kelsier's hatred of the nobility (as implied by the questioner in the 2nd WoB above).

Eh, I don't think that WoB actually says anything. Brandon's a notorious troll, taking implications like that as confirmations is risky, I feel.

[+mdross81]

3 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Eh, I don't think that WoB actually says anything. Brandon's a notorious troll, taking implications like that as confirmations is risky, I feel.

Yeah, I'm not saying I buy the implication. Just saying with a chasmfiend-sized IF, that it would be impressive IF it were the case.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, mdross81 said:

Yeah, I'm not saying I buy the implication. Just saying with a chasmfiend-sized IF, that it would be impressive IF it were the case.

I do agree there then, yeah.

[mathiau]

Odium is everywhere, every Shard is everywhere and nothing can change that.

What is locked in the Rosharan system is Odium's consciousness and awareness

[+mdross81]

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Odium is everywhere, every Shard is everywhere and nothing can change that.

What is locked in the Rosharan system is Odium's consciousness and awareness

Do we have a WoB on that? That’s it’s his consciousness and awareness that are locked?

We know he’s aware of some things that have occurred outside of Roshar because he knows about Harmony.

More generally, the questions still stand even if it is his consciousness and awareness that are locked. What is Odium limited from doing because of those aspects being locked?

[mathiau]

14 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Do we have a WoB on that? That’s it’s his consciousness and awareness that are locked?

We know he’s aware of some things that have occurred outside of Roshar because he knows about Harmony.

More generally, the questions still stand even if it is his consciousness and awareness that are locked. What is Odium limited from doing because of those aspects being locked?

To be fair we don't, I'm just trying to reconcile the fact every Shard is everywhere with the fact he's locked in the Rosharan system. If you have a better idea I'm listening

[Frustration]

22 hours ago, mdross81 said:

Do we have a WoB on that? That’s it’s his consciousness and awareness that are locked?

That's how Ruin was trapped

[+mdross81]

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

To be fair we don't, I'm just trying to reconcile the fact every Shard is everywhere with the fact he's locked in the Rosharan system. If you have a better idea I'm listening

That’s fair. I mean the point of the post was more about how the lock limits him rather than the mechanism.

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's how Ruin was trapped

Yes, Leras sacrificed his mind to create something capable of containing Ati’s mind. To be honest, that’s why I think the method of locking Odium is likely to be different. We’ve seen that play out before. Also, I could be wrong, but I don’t think Tanavast’s mind is still around to serve as the prison in the same way that Leras’s was. And Cultivation is involved in the chaining in some unspecified way.

But again, I’m more curious about just what Odium can do even though he’s  shackled. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 hours ago, mdross81 said:

Also, I could be wrong, but I don’t think Tanavast’s mind is still around to serve as the prison in the same way that Leras’s was. And Cultivation is involved in the chaining in some unspecified way.

Yeah, this is still really weird. One, Tanavast is dead, so why does his prison keep Odium trapped? And two, why would Dalinar releasing Odium be enough, when Cultivation is still there binding Odium too?

[Bejarden]

29 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah, this is still really weird. One, Tanavast is dead, so why does his prison keep Odium trapped? And two, why would Dalinar releasing Odium be enough, when Cultivation is still there binding Odium too?

It was my impression that Tanavast somehow got an Oath out of Rayse to not leave. ( From when Rayse asks Dalinar to release him)

I do have a short theory on it that I’ll write someday that involves Cultivation.

[mathiau]

33 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah, this is still really weird. One, Tanavast is dead, so why does his prison keep Odium trapped? And two, why would Dalinar releasing Odium be enough, when Cultivation is still there binding Odium too?

Probably something about the Dawnshard known to bind mortals and voidish creatures

[+Harrycrapper]

I think it's important to note that the second WoB is before Secret History was released, which is likely some of the background stuff he's referring to that people didn't really understand at the time. 

[mathiau]

6 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

I think it's important to note that the second WoB is before Secret History was released, which is likely some of the background stuff he's referring to that people didn't really understand at the time. 

I don't understand what you mean

[+Harrycrapper]

21 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't understand what you mean

Quote

Questioner

Is there anything I should look at as a hint for something we haven’t figured out yet?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, that's a good question too. There are moments through the entire original trilogy that people haven't figured out yet. But they've picked out most of what they are, they just don't know why. Like they know something weird is happening, they don't know-- They haven't guessed why the weirdness is happening. The weirdness is figure-out-able, but it would be hard. But it's not outside of reason for you to figure out why these certain moments-- these moments people have not yet figured out.

This seems to be referring to the Mistborn trilogy(Brandon doesn't have any other trilogies finished in the Cosmere even now). There were certain things that were odd that an observant read could notice. The mist spirit nearly killing Elend is kind of odd when you look back on it without the knowledge in Secret History that it was Kelsier's dumb idea to do that. There's the instance where Kelsier influenced Vin's instincts that is just explained in HoA as "Vin had a strong unexplained instinct to not interact with Hoid." Also, when Vin is absorbing all of the Mists in the end, she hears what seems like Kelsier telling her about the Mists. At the point in time Brandon is answering this question(2015), I'm pretty sure he's referring to these moments that we didn't have the full story on, because we hadn't seen them from Kelsier's perspective. The questioner went in an Odium direction, but Brandon never explicitly tied those answers with his previous statement. 

I'm not saying that precludes Odium from having influence on some stuff in Mistborn, but I don't think it's to the extent one could be lead to believe if you take that WoB at face value. Especially because it's before Secret History was released. 

[+mdross81]

1 hour ago, Harrycrapper said:

This seems to be referring to the Mistborn trilogy(Brandon doesn't have any other trilogies finished in the Cosmere even now). There were certain things that were odd that an observant read could notice. The mist spirit nearly killing Elend is kind of odd when you look back on it without the knowledge in Secret History that it was Kelsier's dumb idea to do that. There's the instance where Kelsier influenced Vin's instincts that is just explained in HoA as "Vin had a strong unexplained instinct to not interact with Hoid." Also, when Vin is absorbing all of the Mists in the end, she hears what seems like Kelsier telling her about the Mists. At the point in time Brandon is answering this question(2015), I'm pretty sure he's referring to these moments that we didn't have the full story on, because we hadn't seen them from Kelsier's perspective. The questioner went in an Odium direction, but Brandon never explicitly tied those answers with his previous statement. 

This actually makes a lot of sense that these moments were the figure-outable things.

And Brandon just straight responding to the question about Odium’s influence on Scadrial without correcting that that didn’t necessarily have anything to do with the first part of the question seems like exactly the way he trolls.