Coinshot Lasers

[BenduLuke]

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When brandon says all powers individually he is speaking of different metals

I don't see it that way. Especially given how Tin acts.

Edited April 10, 2021 by BenduLuke

[Frustration]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

I don't see it that way.

Which do you think more likely

That when the questioner asked if you stored mistborn-ness(all the powers) at once, or each power separatly and Brandon said separatly that he was

1. Refering to each misting type(one power) as they are described in the novels
2. Or refering to each individual change that each specific metal made which are all considered one power in world?

[BenduLuke]

Just now, Frustration said:

Which do you think more likely

That when the questioner asked if you stored mistborn-ness(all the powers) at once, or each power separatly and Brandon said separatly that he was

1. Refering to each misting type(one power) as they are described in the novels
2. Or refering to each individual change that each specific metal made which are all considered one power in world?

option 2 given how tin works.

[mathiau]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

option 2 given how tin works.

I need explanations, I would chose option 1 for the same reason.

[Frustration]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

option 2 given how tin works.

Tin being the only metal that does that, when all other metals only act as one power?

[mathiau]

Just now, Frustration said:

Tin being the only metal that does that, when all other metals only act as one power?

Copper

[Frustration]

Just now, mathiau said:

Copper

Copper is still one power, you store certain amount of memories.

[mathiau]

Just now, Frustration said:

Copper is still one power, you store certain amount of memories.

I think I don't understand what you're talking about. If I have both A-tin and A-pewter, can I store A-tin in a Nicrosilmind without storing A-pewter in that Nicrosilmind?

[Frustration]

Just now, mathiau said:

I think I don't understand what you're talking about. If I have both A-tin and A-pewter, can I store A-tin in a Nicrosilmind without storing A-pewter in that Nicrosilmind?

Yes as a-Tin is one power and a-pewter is another, if Brandon had said that you stored Mistborn-ness you would store both, but as he didn't it's specific metals

[mathiau]

Just now, Frustration said:

Yes as a-Tin is one power and a-pewter is another, if Brandon had said that you stored Mistborn-ness you would store both, but as he didn't it's specific metals

Ok, then why are you arguing about the Tin part? F-tin can store one sense at a time for the same reason F-nicrosil can store one metal/surge/other at time : they're different senses.

[BenduLuke]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Tin being the only metal that does that, when all other metals only act as one power?

all other metals except Nicrosil used feruchemically only store 1 attribute like strength or speed. copper works similarly in that you often need different metalminds to store different memories. thanks @mathiau. According to the WoB I quoted each invested attribute needs to be stored separately, the problem is that Pewter has multiple invested attributes. A-Tin would also be split into different senses by Nicrosil just like with F-Tin.

What I am now unsure of is whether Nicrosil would store the attributes as allomantic versions or Feruchemical versions.

Edited April 10, 2021 by BenduLuke

[mathiau]

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

all other metals except Nicrosil used feruchemically only store 1 attribute like strength or speed. copper works similarly in that you often need different metalminds to store different memories. thanks @mathiau. According to the WoB I quoted each invested attribute needs to be stored separately, the problem is that Pewter has multiple invested attributes. A-Tin would also be split into different senses by Nicrosil just like with F-Tin.

Pewter and Tin have multiple effects, they are one attribute

Edited April 10, 2021 by mathiau

[BenduLuke]

9 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Pewter and Tin have multiple effects, they are one attribute

they both have multiple affected attributes. Tin can actually store other senses like seeker sense (Bronze-A), or perhaps metal sense, or time sense (Gold or Electrum A)

Pewter speed would be stored in steel and pewter health in Gold.

Edited April 10, 2021 by BenduLuke

[mathiau]

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

they both have multiple affected attributes. Tin can actually store other senses like seeker sense (Bronze-A), or perhaps metal sense, or time sense (Gold or Electrum A)

Pewter speed would be stored in steel and pewter health in Gold.

First, I thought we were talking about TLR's compounding trick, which is about increasing allomancy and not ferruchemy

Secound, saying that storing A-Bronze hearing is another attribute than storing the sense of smell is like saying Windrunner's ability to lash themself is not that same attribute as their ability to lash other objects

[BenduLuke]

Just now, mathiau said:

First, I thought we were talking about TLR's compounding trick, which is about increasing allomancy and not ferruchemy

Secound, saying that storing A-Bronze hearing is another attribute than storing the sense of smell is like saying Windrunner's ability to lash themself is not that same attribute as their ability to lash other objects

Bronze sense is specifically mentioned as possible for tin to store

"It is possible for a Windwhisperer to store more than the five traditional senses in a tinmind.[13] An example of this would be the the ability to feel pain.[14] It might be possible to store Allomantically granted senses like bronze sense.[15]"

TLR was a Fullborn so it was referring to his feruchemical storage of his allomancy.

Windrunners have 3 types of lashing. Sticking things together (to walls) or Adhesion, Flying which is really falling or Gravity and a seeming combination called Reverse lashing which draws things to other things (seems to combine Adhesion and Gravity) works best when used to draw things not currently on the ground. Nicrosil could store each of these individually and would probably need to.

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

Bronze sense is specifically mentioned as possible for tin to store

"It is possible for a Windwhisperer to store more than the five traditional senses in a tinmind.[13] An example of this would be the the ability to feel pain.[14] It might be possible to store Allomantically granted senses like bronze sense.[15]"

Was this suppose to contradict anything I said

Quote

TLR was a Fullborn so it was referring to his feruchemical storage of his allomancy.

But then why are you talking about Windwhisperers?

Quote

Windrunners have 3 types of lashing. Sticking things together (to walls) or Adhesion, Flying which is really falling or Gravity and a seeming combination called Reverse lashing which draws things to other things (seems to combine Adhesion and Gravity) works best when used to draw things not currently on the ground. Nicrosil could store each of these individually and would probably need to.

Nicrosill could definitely store Gravitation (Basic Lasing) and Adhesion (Full Lashing+wind manipulation+probably more) Reverse Lashings are not a power but something obtained by using two powers at one so you wouldn't be able to store it for the same reason you can't store your ability to compound.

[BenduLuke]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

Was this suppose to contradict anything I said

But then why are you talking about Windwhisperers?

Nicrosill could definitely store Gravitation (Basic Lasing) and Adhesion (Full Lashing+wind manipulation+probably more) Reverse Lashings are not a power but something obtained by using two powers at one so you wouldn't be able to store it for the same reason you can't store your ability to compound.

No just being sure I was clear in case. I guess to be clear each and every individual sense seems to me to be treated as a distinct investiture by F-Tin. You need a separate metalmind for each.

Windwhisper is the feruchemical use of tin which is only one of the many Feruchemical powers of TLR.

Reverse lashings might be iffy for nicrosil like you said, but it is referred to as a distinct lashing though unique to Windrunners.

[therunner]

19 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

@therunner I thought you would appreciate this WoB on attribute storage since you are all about citation.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/33/#e2766

Quote

Necarion

The compounding trick that the Lord Ruler performed. When you're storing Investiture, are you storing your "Mistborn-ness" or all the powers individually?

Brandon Sanderson

All of the powers individually.

Necarion

Oh okay!

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, the compounding trick. Really what's happening is you're fueling Feruchemy with the power of Allomancy, but you're filtering it through you, and then you're storing it.

Necarion

So it's not that you're a more powerful mistborn when you've tapped [investiture]

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

 

This indicates that Nicrosil would store strength, speed, health, balance, agility and any other invested attribute from pewter burning separately, and it also answers why windwhisper store senses in separate metalminds if they are also Tineye burning tin to be stored. The real question then is does it get stored as allomantic or feruchemical strength since Nicrosil stores investiture not specifically strength. Brutes store the strength as Feruchemical strength from burning pewter so their muscles would enlarge when they tapped it, but Nicrosil might store it as a magnification of strength instead without the attendant muscle increase.

Just food for thought.

So, no it does not indicate that at all?

Your theory on nicrosil storing various pewter attributes rests on two points, both of which are not actually supported yet

1. Kinetic investiture is storable (on this we have RAFOs at best).
2. That F-nicrosil allows feruchemist to 'divide' singular kinetic investiture into different attributes.

On the first point, I think that might be possible even though so far all that is being talked about being stored (including in the WoB you linked) is static Investiture in spiritweb, i.e. storing ability to have some ability. In the WoB he says that Mistborn with F-nicrosil can store for exaple ability to use A-pewter and A-bronze, and have them separate. Nothing about kinetic investiture at all.

The point two, that F-nicrosil can 'divide' kinetic investiture, has no relation to the WoB at all. And I do not really think that could be done, could you separate stormlight's healing property from its physical 'perfecting' property? They are both effects of one singular kind of investiture, not separate abilities. I do think you could store A-pewter health into a goldmind, A-pewter strength into pewtermind and A-pewter speed into steelmind, but I do not think you could store this into nicrosilmind.

And F-tin is not a good argument either. F-tin allows you to store different senses separately, does that mean that F-steel allows you to store speed of different body parts separately? Or F-pewter storing strength of different limbs separately? Or F-gold storing health of individual body parts/organs? Answer to all of these is no, so I do not see why F-tin would be argument. F-tin is the outlier not the rule.

EDIT: I now realize that the last point on F-tin is not that good, you could argue that F-nicrosil is like F-tin, with 'kind of investiture'='sense'. However, I still think that does not support your point. I think that separating individual abilities out of A-pewter investiture would be like F-tin storing for example 'red-color vision', they cannot do that. F-tin can store senses, not parts of sense, and in the same way F-nicrosil can only store Investiture, not only part of it.

Edited April 11, 2021 by therunner

[+Bzhydack]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

EDIT: I now realize that the last point on F-tin is not that good, you could argue that F-nicrosil is like F-tin, with 'kind of investiture'='sense'. However, I still think that does not support your point. I think that separating individual abilities out of A-pewter investiture would be like F-tin storing for example 'red-color vision', they cannot do that. F-tin can store senses, not parts of sense, and in the same way F-nicrosil can only store Investiture, not only part of it.

We know the most similar feruchemicaly in function to the Nicrosil is Copper. Copper also is wierd one. And Copper can store different memories with varius lenghts. So is possible that Nicrosil can store various different Investiture abilities, if someone happens to have more than one. But, of course, this is speculation.

[therunner]

14 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

We know the most similar feruchemicaly in function to the Nicrosil is Copper. Copper also is wierd one. And Copper can store different memories with varius lenghts. So is possible that Nicrosil can store various different Investiture abilities, if someone happens to have more than one. But, of course, this is speculation.

True, but copper still does not allow you to only store a part of a memory. You either store it, or you do not, you cannot for example experience a car crash, and then store everything in that memory but one specific car. You can store only first 20 seconds of that, or the last 20, but all of what has happened is stored.

Similarly, I simply do not think that F-Nicrosil allows you to manipulate the investiture, so to pick and choose which effect you store.

[ScadrianTank]

Going back to the original post, I got some thoughts. 

1. After rewatching all of Stargate, I want some sort of Zero-point Investiture being pulled directly from the Spiritual realm Bondsmith style but done technologically.
2. Super Forgers powered by Forgery amplification Aons the size of a space station destroying star systems and creating black holes by Forging cores of stars for brief moments.
3. Using Spiritual attributes of your home planet for terraforming with cosmere's biggest metalmind(s).

[EggArdent]

On 3/6/2021 at 8:32 AM, Brgst13 said:

Elsecalling could possibly allow targeted nuclear strikes from the Cognitive realm, where an Elsecaller could reach out from the Cognitive realm and Soulcast a critical mass of rock into plutonium, causing a runaway reaction.

imagine trying to convince something to turn into plutonium "hey you want to turn into this? everyone will see you for miles, you'll be the brightest thing around!"

[BenduLuke]

On 4/11/2021 at 9:03 AM, therunner said:

So, no it does not indicate that at all?

Your theory on nicrosil storing various pewter attributes rests on two points, both of which are not actually supported yet

1. Kinetic investiture is storable (on this we have RAFOs at best).
2. That F-nicrosil allows feruchemist to 'divide' singular kinetic investiture into different attributes.

On the first point, I think that might be possible even though so far all that is being talked about being stored (including in the WoB you linked) is static Investiture in spiritweb, i.e. storing ability to have some ability. In the WoB he says that Mistborn with F-nicrosil can store for exaple ability to use A-pewter and A-bronze, and have them separate. Nothing about kinetic investiture at all.

The point two, that F-nicrosil can 'divide' kinetic investiture, has no relation to the WoB at all. And I do not really think that could be done, could you separate stormlight's healing property from its physical 'perfecting' property? They are both effects of one singular kind of investiture, not separate abilities. I do think you could store A-pewter health into a goldmind, A-pewter strength into pewtermind and A-pewter speed into steelmind, but I do not think you could store this into nicrosilmind.

And F-tin is not a good argument either. F-tin allows you to store different senses separately, does that mean that F-steel allows you to store speed of different body parts separately? Or F-pewter storing strength of different limbs separately? Or F-gold storing health of individual body parts/organs? Answer to all of these is no, so I do not see why F-tin would be argument. F-tin is the outlier not the rule.

EDIT: I now realize that the last point on F-tin is not that good, you could argue that F-nicrosil is like F-tin, with 'kind of investiture'='sense'. However, I still think that does not support your point. I think that separating individual abilities out of A-pewter investiture would be like F-tin storing for example 'red-color vision', they cannot do that. F-tin can store senses, not parts of sense, and in the same way F-nicrosil can only store Investiture, not only part of it.

You are right the WoB I quoted is a general discussion on investiture not specific about kinetic types. Pewter can only be stored by different metalminds. Strength by pewter, speed by steel, mental speed by zinc, health by gold, wakefulness by bronze. These are only some of the enhanced attributes available to Allomantic pewter. Distinct senses must be stored by distinct zinc minds so even a zinc compounder must split the senses between metalminds. Each sense is distinctly invested so must be split. Comparing senses to limbs is nonsensical. Pewter must be split between metalminds because no one metal with the exception can potentially store all the physical abilities it provides and some of those abilities can't be stored any other way. Still since we haven't seen soulbearers in action and Brandon when asked directly about them says RAFO big RAFO it really is anyones guess how it works or what it really does. From my perspective it seems like the universal storage mind open to all potential abilities or power sources like stormlight. It might even be a better storage medium than spheres. It could potentially store individual surges as well all depending on what connections the Soulbearer has. It could also be the metalmind that can mimic every other metalmind or perhaps it stores the actual allomantic ability like steel pushes or Allomantic Pewter strength instead of ferechemical strength which has the attendant muscle increase.

On another topic we have discussed in the past. Truesouls might be the Cosmeres version of Legion especially if working with a trusted Forger. If that person was an Aluminum compounder you might be able to add near magic immunity to Legion like abilities.

On 4/12/2021 at 1:09 PM, ScadrianTank said:

Going back to the original post, I got some thoughts. 

1. After rewatching all of Stargate, I want some sort of Zero-point Investiture being pulled directly from the Spiritual realm Bondsmith style but done technologically.
2. Super Forgers powered by Forgery amplification Aons the size of a space station destroying star systems and creating black holes by Forging cores of stars for brief moments.
3. Using Spiritual attributes of your home planet for terraforming with cosmere's biggest metalmind(s).

Could you expand on your points I am not sure what you are going for?

A Forger working with a Nicroburst or who is a Duralumin Nat might fit the Super Forger type. Not sure how a Forger is working with an Aon?

I am not sure how Spiritual attributes and Terra forming relate?

On 4/14/2021 at 0:55 PM, EggArdent said:

imagine trying to convince something to turn into plutonium "hey you want to turn into this? everyone will see you for miles, you'll be the brightest thing around!"

Nice argument to what you want to soulcast, but I think it would need several steps after convincing the change to achieve your nuclear ambitions. It might be simpler to achieve your nuclear goals through Division instead. Stormlight expencive though. Hire a Nicroburst to simplify the mad scientist goals.

I like the Idea. :-)

[ScadrianTank]

8 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

A Forger working with a Nicroburst or who is a Duralumin Nat might fit the Super Forger type. Not sure how a Forger is working with an Aon?

I am not sure how Spiritual attributes and Terra forming relate?

For point 2, I think about it as a Forger with a Dawnshard and an Aon that increases Forging strength, like the city of Elantris being a huge Aon Reo.

Since everything in the cosmere has a soul, I assume you can adjust a planet's soul to change its characteristics. So if you can save the parameters of one planet and imprint them on another, you get magical terraforming.

[BenduLuke]

13 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

For point 2, I think about it as a Forger with a Dawnshard and an Aon that increases Forging strength, like the city of Elantris being a huge Aon Reo.

Since everything in the cosmere has a soul, I assume you can adjust a planet's soul to change its characteristics. So if you can save the parameters of one planet and imprint them on another, you get magical terraforming.

That would mean changing a planets identity.

I wonder what might be able to do that? ;-)

I think there is a form of Feruchemy that Might allow that. ;-0

Seriously though what you propose sounds like something related to a truesoul master. It also sounds like something that might be possible in era 3 or 4 depending on if alloy era is actually era 2 or 1.5.

Dawnshard though, something which seems to have more potential power than an unbound bondsmith?

Do you think Scadrial might have a dawnshard? There are 16 after all.