Preliminary Attempt at an Elemental System

[Halyo_Alex]

Hey all! First time I'm showing this off on the forums, since I feel like I've polished this up enough to make an in-depth post about it.

Attached to this post should be the Chart I've made to show off my own take on a system of Elements, and the unique interactions that arise from 6 Prime Elements: Earth, Water, Air, Fire, Order, and Chaos.

I chose these 6 as the building blocks for the system for a couple of reasons, mainly personal taste. I wanted to have a fresh take on the classic Elements, and I'm also a fan of the idea of Order and Entropy being included in the mix for greater variety.

Let's start with the basics, then. The 6 Prime elements are named as such because magically, they cannot be divided any further. They are the elementary (heh) "particles" of the system, like Quarks, Gluons, and Electrons, for example. Under proper circumstances in-world, the Primes can pair up with any of the other elements to create a Compound Element. Compounds are only ever pairs of Primes. There are no Compounds made of Compounds. My personal favorite example for Compounds is the Mortal Trinity of Compounds (named as such due to their positioning on the Chart, which places them in a triangle). These Elements include Life, Death, and Undeath. Life is made of Earth and Water (the things most would agree are essential for life). Death replaces the Earth of Life with Chaos (Entropy). Undeath replaces the Water of Life with Chaos.

In this case, if you can manipulate the elemental content of something with Life, replacing one of the elements with Chaos, you can change its nature. Alternatively, you could take something Dead (Water/Entropy) and change it to Undead (Earth/Entropy). This, as expected, would raise it as an undead of some form. Ghost, Zombie, the end result depends on what part you change, and what ratio its elements are changed to. Powerful Undead like Liches require a large amount of Undead element to replace their natural soul (made of Life element) to sustain themselves. A properly-made Lich can even consume Life essence and Chaos essence and metabolize them into fresh Undead element to sustain itself for as long as it can maintain a high enough level of Undead element.

All elements also have Compatibilities, which are Elements that share the Element(s) constituent Elements (how many times can I use Element in one sentence, huh?). For example, with the Mortal Trinity, all 3 of them are Compatible with the other 2. The dotted lines on the chart show all the Compatibilities between Elements.

Crystalline structures interact uniquely with all elements, not just ones related to the Crystal element (though they are more receptive to that). Gemstones can act as elemental batteries, and metals can conduct elemental energy. Technomancy is a big part of the system with this, though it's not always "tech" in the sense of things like computers, or robots. Sometimes the tech is as simple as an obelisk with crystals on top, charged with Elemental energy. Automating things like Golems are indeed possible by charging a stone with Life element and giving it a body to work with, as well as certain mechanisms inside to replace the functions of internal organs and the like. Or... You could use real organs. Like a brain. Just be careful that your golem army doesn't try to rebel against you.

Typical interaction with the Elements occurs via spiritual alignment to one or two Elements (either Prime or Compound, but Prime is much more common) when one is born. The elemental alignment of the parents does seem to influence the elemental alignment of the offspring, especially for highly magical creatures like Demons, Angels, Gods, and Dragons. Well, I say "Gods," but really I mean powerfully-aligned Holy element creatures. Most of them live in the Pantheon at the peak of one of the tallest mountains in the world, known as Heaven's Peak, for obvious reasons. Cities around the mountain pray to and offer sacrifices of food or other material things to the Gods in exchange for boons related to the domain of the God they appeal to. For example, Ronira, the Goddess of Plenty, who accepts food offerings and will bless farmlands to grow better crops. She has a lot of Holy element, but also a significant amount of Life element, which she actively channels to provide her boon. This channeling is achieved through Intent, and requires a sufficient spiritual focus and enough element present in the magic-user's body to expend on magical effects. Stronger spells will predictably require bigger volumes of element to be present when trying to cast. Elemental alignment determines what elements will naturally flow into the creature, meaning that their elemental reserves regenerate over time. Overusing one element constantly for a long time can cause side effects, typically related to the element. Overuse of Water might cause your body to grow gills, or fins. Crystal element might make your skin turn metallic, or cause you to grow crystalline claws on your fingertips. (And yes, those crystals could be used to contain Elemental energy, but that might not be practical. Or maybe it is!)

Suffice to say, there's plenty of room here for complexity and depth, stemming from 6 Prime elements. You might be wondering why I've skipped over Aether (if you scrolled down and opened the chart picture), and that's because it's... complicated. I will say this though, people can be born with an Aether alignment, and they are either feared or revered, with powers that most people can only dream of. If enough people are interested in what I've said so far, I'll elaborate in a later post in this thread.

[1st of Lunch]

Sounds cool - I'm interested to see it in use. Nice chart too, well put together!

[GoWibble]

why is water, chaos, demon, and ice  = death?

[Halyo_Alex]

3 hours ago, GoWibble said:

why is water, chaos, demon, and ice  = death?

Not all of those are adding up together. Compound elements are only made of pairs of Prime elements, but because of how Compounds share their constituent Primes, there are Compatibilities between them. So Death is Water/Chaos, but that means it has Compatibilities with any other Water or Chaos based element (including those 2 Primes).

There are patterns to the Compatibilities, actually. 

If the element of choice is a Prime, there are 5 Compatibilities; the 4 Compounds made with the elements that aren't directly across from it in the hex, plus itself. So Water is compatible with Water, Ice, Life, Death, and Rain. One Prime (itself), 2 Outer Compounds, and 2 Inner Compounds

If the element of choice is an Outer Compound (the ones on the outside edge with the Primes), then they are compatible with 9 elements. So Demon is compatible with Fire, Chaos, Demon, Lava, Storm, Light (odd, I know, but they share Fire), Undeath, Dragon, and Death. 2 Primes, 3 Outer Compounds, and 4 Inner Compounds.

If the element is an Inner Compound (in either the Mortal Trinity or the Divine Trinity), then they also have 9 Compatibilities. For example, Holy. It is compatible with Air, Order, Ice, Rain, Crystal, Storm, Holy, Light, and Dragon. 2 Primes, 4 Outer Compounds, and 3 Inner Compounds (the entire Divine Trinity, in this case).

[+ILuvHats]

@Halyo_Alex Theoretically could you force 2 non compatible Prime elements to form a Compound? Going along with the chemical reaction metaphor, I’m assuming compatibility has to do with activation energy. So while incompatible elements have unfavorable reactions, you should be able force them to react if you pour enough energy into the reaction, obtaining an unstable Compound. Perhaps the Compound can only be kept from breaking into its component elements by constantly pouring energy into it. 

It doesn’t fit with the diagram, but I think it would be cool to perhaps make a separate chart for these unstable or forbidden or whatever-you-want-to-call-them compounds. You could name each of them after a sort of paradoxical idea too to get some interesting names. Maybe the reason they’re not on the original chart is that they’re so rare very few people know of their existence. Idk.

If you don’t have plans to do anything like this, that’s cool. After all, it would make the system more complicated than it already is. I thought it’d be an interesting idea though. Also, I’d love it if you’d make another post talking about Aether.

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, Ooklidean Geometry said:

@Halyo_Alex Theoretically could you force 2 non compatible Prime elements to form a Compound? Going along with the chemical reaction metaphor, I’m assuming compatibility has to do with activation energy. So while incompatible elements have unfavorable reactions, you should be able force them to react if you pour enough energy into the reaction, obtaining an unstable Compound. Perhaps the Compound can only be kept from breaking into its component elements by constantly pouring energy into it. 

It doesn’t fit with the diagram, but I think it would be cool to perhaps make a separate chart for these unstable or forbidden or whatever-you-want-to-call-them compounds. You could name each of them after a sort of paradoxical idea too to get some interesting names. Maybe the reason they’re not on the original chart is that they’re so rare very few people know of their existence. Idk.

If you don’t have plans to do anything like this, that’s cool. After all, it would make the system more complicated than it already is. I thought it’d be an interesting idea though. Also, I’d love it if you’d make another post talking about Aether.

Well, the only "non-compatible" Prime elements are ones on opposite sides of the chart. Order and Chaos, Fire and Water, Earth and Air. And when those ARE forced together into harmony (not Harmony, just harmony), they become Aether element. Aether is sort of the "unflavored", "seventh" Prime element, though it doesn't really act like a Prime. I may as well take this opportunity to elaborate on Aether, then.

Someone born with Aether alignment, while absurdly rare (we're talking 1 in tens of millions of a chance of existing), is incredibly powerful simply through sheer diversity of magic. Their main skill that they can use (instinctively, for simple acts) is Aether Alchemy, where they can absorb the Elements inside matter and infuse it into other matter, changing its properties. For example, if they find a pool of water, they can draw the Water element out of it, which, in this case, turns the actual matter into Aether Dust, a fine grey powder with no elemental alignment. If the Alchemist has, say, Lava element stored within them from somewhere else, they can then Infuse that Aether Dust with Lava element and turn it into actual, physical lava! A bit of a weird example, to be sure. Aether Dust can be Infused by other elementally-aligned creatures, but only with the Element(s) that naturally refill within them. So a Water mage could return that Aether Dust back to water by infusing it. This makes it incredibly valuable even for non Aether Alchemists, but it's so rare that only the richest, most influential, or powerful individuals can actually get their hands on enough to be practical. A lot of those rich people would rather keep a sealed glass vial of Aether Dust to show off how rich they are, rather than Infusing it.

In addition to infusing Aether Dust, Aether Alchemists can also add elements to normal matter, giving it new properties. For example, adding Crystal element to a tree branch would make it either turn metallic or gem-like, depending on the intent of the Alchemist and their desired result. It's also worth noting that adding, say, Chaos to matter that contains pure Order as at least 1 of its elements would cause those opposite elements to cancel out much like how Matter and Antimatter annihilate in the real world. And yes, it does release the energy of the opposing elements in a very similar manner. This is one of the big limitations I want to impose on Aether Alchemy. The Alchemist would either have to remove the element that would conflict first, or find a different material that doesn't contain it to begin with. So you can't infuse Ice with Demon element and expect sunshine and rainbows. Though with Demon element you really can't ever expect that.

Another limitation of Aether Alchemy is that there is an upper limit on how much Element the Alchemist can harbor within themselves before side effects start to manifest, such as headaches, dizziness, or nausea. If they keep absorbing elements after those symptoms manifest, they can eventually kill themselves, at which point the stored Elemental energies will rush out of their body and infuse into all the matter around it, causing a chaotic mess of weirdly-elemented matter that is entirely unnatural. Air with Undeath and Light in it, for a weird example. The elements that end up in the matter seems to be truly random, except for a preference for opposite elements to avoid each other.

[Ixthos]

I rather like this system - I like elemental systems with variations on the typical approach, like with Stormlight Archive which has Surgebinding as a form of elemental system with some very clever twists. I would add the caviate that the compound elements would probably make more sense to just call compounds though, as it simplifies describing them. What is the origin of this system in the story? If there are multiple cultures does every culture have their own take on the system, or is there a unified attitude and belief towards it? Also, as you listed dragons, etc. as compound elements, does that mean that infusing the dragon element into something will make it into a dragon or just give it draconic traits?

[Halyo_Alex]

13 hours ago, Ixthos said:

I rather like this system - I like elemental systems with variations on the typical approach, like with Stormlight Archive which has Surgebinding as a form of elemental system with some very clever twists. I would add the caviate that the compound elements would probably make more sense to just call compounds though, as it simplifies describing them. What is the origin of this system in the story? If there are multiple cultures does every culture have their own take on the system, or is there a unified attitude and belief towards it? Also, as you listed dragons, etc. as compound elements, does that mean that infusing the dragon element into something will make it into a dragon or just give it draconic traits?

Alright, fair enough. "compound element" doesn't really make much sense linguistically, I admit. Compounds it is, then!

The origin of elemental magic is kinda weird.

In the beginning of the universe, there was a Big Bang like our own, and there was Aether Element and Aether Powder. Aether powder is made of atom-sized particles (which, yes, makes it INCREDIBLY difficult to stop it from just blowing away, which contributes to its value and rarity), and takes on different properties based on the elements it contains. After a few seconds of existing, the raw Aether element of the primordial universe began to decay into the 6 Prime elements, which slowly settled into particles of Aether Powder throughout the expanding Universe over millions of years. Clumps of Fire accumulated first, forming the primordial Stars. Earth gathered around these stars to form planets, followed by Air to give them atmospheres. Some of the Air was independent of Earth-based bodies entirely, forming Gas Giants. Then, Water accumulated on these planets, creating oceans, lakes, and the like. For a long time, the Universe had found stability. Then, Order and Chaos settled into the stars and planets, and things started changing once more. With the final pieces of the puzzle in place, the 6 Primes interacted, and over eons, they mixed into the first Compounds. These included Ice, or Lava, or Crystal, or Rain, or Storm. With the creation of Life element, reality would be forever altered, as living things could move of their own will, their own autonomy, rather than being bound to the whims of nature. At first, only microscopic specks of Life were able to imbue into matter, forming microbes like bacteria. As more and more Life element built up, as well as other Compounds, bigger and more complex organisms could form, like plants. Plants that fed on Light element emitted by the stars to facilitate their own growth using Water and Air and Earth elements. For tens of thousands of years more, only microscopic and plant life existed. But as new Compounds formed, Life element found a new outlet for its accumulated energies. Holy element, Dragon element, and Demon element proved to be receptive to Life, and these 3 began to form new kinds of life. The first truly sentient beings of the Universe was Life with a high concentration of one of those 3 Compounds. Nobody is quite sure if any one of them came first, or if it did, it was a negligibly short duration between the three. Dragons, Gods, and Demons learned to explore the worlds they were borne from, being drawn towards the elements that gave rise to their existence. Dragons flocked to volcanic mountain expanses, Gods found lands that soared in the skies, and Demons retreated below the surface to the magmatic caverns that would become their home.

The first humans were created by the first Gods of Life, the Gods with the greatest concentration of Life element within their souls. They saw how Life had taken shape on their home worlds, and began to tinker, creating many races of mortal beings, including humans, dwarves, and elves. Some Gods of Life made other races too, but almost all created some sort of humanoid race on their worlds, finding contentment and joy in seeing how the mortals thanked them for their creation, and went on to change the world around them, bending it to their will in more mundane manners compared to the Gods. For some time, the Gods were content to communicate with, and aid the mortals in their goals, with peace as their primary ideal. But mortals grow ever-more demanding, and soon, the Gods found themselves split along moral boundaries, drawn into confrontations between mortal societies, and forced to choose whether to help the mortals with their demands or not. This was the perfect foundation for Demons to emerge from their caverns and begin to sew chaos in the world, using magic to disguise themselves by way of their Compatibility with Light, or simply wreaking havoc with fire element, or Storm, or Lava. As mortals were killed en-masse in the ensuing madness and anarchy, some clever Demons discovered how to raise the dead, finding crystals imbued with Undead element, as it was the only suitable vessel for that element prior to such massive die-offs. Wielding these Undead gems, Demons raised legions of the dead to fight for them, bringing even more chaos to the world. This was what finally brought down the collective, unified wrath of the Gods upon Demonkind. The demons had taken the Gods' creations and twisted them into horrible monstrosities that only existed to kill more mortals, and this cruelty would not go unpunished. Together, the Gods smited the legions of Undead with their Holy power, returning the defiled corpses to the earth to rest forever, and forced the demons to flee back into the underground caverns of Hell. To apologize to the remaining mortals for being foolish and ignorant, the Gods gave them access to Elemental magic, seeding their souls with strong attunements to the elements, to allow them to defend themselves against future Demon attacks, and then retreated to their lands in the heavens, feeling unsure of their powers for the first time in history.

The Dragons, of course, had remained hidden throughout this entire epoch. They had witnessed the chaos of the Demons, and the might of the Gods, and were terrified. Now that both of the other groups had retreated to their own lands, the Dragons began to carefully reach out to mortal-kind and introduced themselves, understanding that making enemies of the mortals would put them at risk of the ire of the Gods, and yet that allying with them brought risk of Demonkind attacking the Dragons as well when next they rose. However, with the balance of power shifted as it was, allying with the mortals meant that the Dragons would also be in the good graces of the Gods, and the three groups would be able to fight back against a new Demon army together, should one ever arise. If Dragonkind had allied with the Demons, then it would have become a 2 against 2 the next time war broke out, and they were intelligent to understand that they would be at an advantage allying with the mortals instead.

And so, peace reigned, with the Dragons sharing their knowledge of the Elements that they had been born with to mortals with the same element. Crystal dragons taught humans that Crystals could contain or conduct elemental energies, and technology advanced at a faster pace than ever before, with crystals and metals becoming more and more valuable. As mortal mages learned from the Dragons, who had spent the entire war hiding and studying magic, they learned many spells, and together, created a Palace of Magic, a place where anyone with a strong attunement to an element could be brought to learn how to control their power and use it for the benefit of others.

And there you have it! Basically a crash-course in the history of the universe up to the present moment where I plan to write the majority of any plots involving my element system. It's worth noting that the development of life and gods and demons and dragons is not the same for every planet in this universe, but this is how history plays out for the primary planet of my stories.

Also, this is officially my longest post on the whole Forum. Yay?

 

Edit: Forgot to answer your question about infusing Dragon element into other substances, specifically, though it's kind of answered in the history summary. The short answer is Yes, it would turn the substance infused into a dragon, with all the consequences therein. The longer answer is, It's Complicated. Part of what Dragon element does is that it resists ye olde Square-Cube law, allowing Dragon-based life to grow much larger than normally possible (cough Chasmfiends cough). Dragon-based magic typically involves a lot of physical force disproportionate to the amount of mass being moved, through some mechanism or another. ...Yes, this includes a spell called "Dragon Shout" that is, effectively, Fus Ro Dah. But there are other things, like Dragon's Fist, that just adds a ton of extra push force to a punch or a slap or even a poke, if you're crazy enough. Some Dragon spells can conjure spectral limbs that are ridiculously gigantic, and mimic the motion of the spellcaster's corresponding limb (think Bayonetta, for a quick example off the top of my head).

Yes i know the short answer is technically longer than the short one but I explained the complexity afterwards, shh.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Halyo_Alex
Forgot to answer the question about Dragon Element.

[Honorless]

What's the functional difference between Water, Rain and Storm? 

[Quantus]

I really like what you have here, you have great detail and a promising amount of structured complexity.  

Base Elements:
Great structure, well done.  If Im getting you correctly, the elements can be grouped/described as follows:

Prime Elements
Trinity Compounds
Mortal Trinity (Life, Death, Undeath), 
Holy? Trinity (Holy, Light, Dragon)
Non-trinity Compounds / Outer Ring Compounds (Crystal, Lava, Demon, Storm, Rain, Ice)
Aether: The Power of Plot (Space, Time, Reality, Mind, Soul, etc, etc...some combination of Infinity Stones, really...That about cover it?

First thing that jumps out to me are that the Demon and the Dragon elements are oddballs among the rest.  The Inner Ring is comprised of mostly abstract Concepts (Holy, Life, Death, Undeath) plus Light as the only physical compound, and the outer ones are all physical things (though Storm could thematically get abstract too).  If Demons and Dragons are more or less equivalent to the Gods, perhaps those Compounds need a conceptual name similar to Holy.  Given it's location in the chart (outer ring btween Fire and Chaos) perhaps Demon can be replaced with Smoke, and give them a sort of djinn feel, all smoke and mirrors and deception and whatnot.  Im not sure what theme you had in mind for "Dragon" as an Elemental Compound, and honestly Dragon as a term has a lot of literary baggage, enough that readers wont likely default to your same image, so Id recommend replacing it with an appropriate High Concept to pair with Light and Holy, clarifying Dragon's role in the wider universal structure. 

You mention which ones work together, but might there also be ones that are specifically antagonistic and/or incompatible.  For example, perhaps to counter a Death effect you need Light (ie Sunlight vulnerability or similar), but for Undeath you counter with Holy (crosses, holy water, etc).

You mention that Crystals can store/channel any of the others.  To me that seems like an unbalancing advantage to just that side.  Maybe there are three such, which can each covering a pair of Primes and their associated Compounds or can just be a different method/school for accessing all of them just like Crystal.  So Crystal gets your magic mechanism, using a lot of crystals and wires and whatnot; Magic through Structure.  Rain gets Potions/Alchemy, and is Magic through Process, and then give something similar to Demon...maybe Bargain Magic or Sacrifice Magic that is capable of Augmenting any of the rest?

 

[kaellok]

@Halyo_Alex

This is a fairly novel and definitely intricate system which allows for significant depth of exploration.  These are huge strengths of the system.  It's also clear that you have a very good, foundational understanding of how you think that everything should work together; again, huge strength!  (The number of times that I've started thinking about a system only to get distracted halfway through the story by realizing that I don't have a clue how any of it actually works...)  

Part of that complexity is a weakness, though.  Especially in the first post when there's so many references to Elements which may or may not actually be referring to the same thing--some of your replies started to make clear that you had decided to change some of the nomenclature, which is really good.  If an Element is the smallest functional unit, then that's just how that should be used; not more, not less.  Anything else invites (if not demands) confusion from a sizable set of readers.

On to nitpicks with the chart!  The dotted lines don't make any intuitive sense, without also having a distinct explanation of what they are, what they are for, and what they represent.  It turns out that after reading the first, basic explanation of the magic system I went to look at the chart and got confused almost immediately.  I knew all about Life and Undeath and how the Elements combined to create things--the dark-line connections were intuitive.  I had to go back and read, and then re-read a couple times to 'get it' (probably because I was skipping around a little bit).  Even in retrospect, with a more complete knowledge and understanding of the basic relationships, I think that they are more distracting than not.  I am not an art, though, and lean heavily to preferring minimalist displays; I'm not giving a suggestion, just a perspective.  The dotted lines don't actually detract from anything.

The Elements are placed in 'opposition' to each other--ie, they're across from their opposite.  However, many of the Compounds do not occupy spots that seem logical on the face, based upon their names.  Since their placement is demanded by the interaction with the Primes, there's not a lot of options there.  But keep in mind that pretty much everyone is going to be assuming that the opposite of Life is Death, while in the chart Life appears to be opposed by Dragon.  It honestly looks like Life, Light, and Holy are on the side of Order, and opposed by Dragon, Undead, and Death by Chaos.  (Maybe the dotted lines I just dismissed is intended to counter this intuitive assessment?)  Further, Demon comes with certain built-in expectations, and I'd think that most readers would not assume that it's the equivalent to Lava or Rain (as both Lava and Rain are perfectly natural occurrences in our world, while most people have rarely if ever seen a doom of Demons forecast by the local meteorologist).  You can make that clear in the story, but you'd be fighting an up-hill battle the entire time.

It is very evident the amount of time and care that you have spent in developing this system, and it allows substantial room for being explored in new and novel ways that will also, at the end of the day, seem inevitable.  You seem to have already resolved probably the largest remaining problem with your system before I came along, so I think overall you're in really good shape

[Halyo_Alex]

4 hours ago, kaellok said:

@Halyo_Alex

This is a fairly novel and definitely intricate system which allows for significant depth of exploration.  These are huge strengths of the system.  It's also clear that you have a very good, foundational understanding of how you think that everything should work together; again, huge strength!  (The number of times that I've started thinking about a system only to get distracted halfway through the story by realizing that I don't have a clue how any of it actually works...)  

Part of that complexity is a weakness, though.  Especially in the first post when there's so many references to Elements which may or may not actually be referring to the same thing--some of your replies started to make clear that you had decided to change some of the nomenclature, which is really good.  If an Element is the smallest functional unit, then that's just how that should be used; not more, not less.  Anything else invites (if not demands) confusion from a sizable set of readers.

On to nitpicks with the chart!  The dotted lines don't make any intuitive sense, without also having a distinct explanation of what they are, what they are for, and what they represent.  It turns out that after reading the first, basic explanation of the magic system I went to look at the chart and got confused almost immediately.  I knew all about Life and Undeath and how the Elements combined to create things--the dark-line connections were intuitive.  I had to go back and read, and then re-read a couple times to 'get it' (probably because I was skipping around a little bit).  Even in retrospect, with a more complete knowledge and understanding of the basic relationships, I think that they are more distracting than not.  I am not an art, though, and lean heavily to preferring minimalist displays; I'm not giving a suggestion, just a perspective.  The dotted lines don't actually detract from anything.

The Elements are placed in 'opposition' to each other--ie, they're across from their opposite.  However, many of the Compounds do not occupy spots that seem logical on the face, based upon their names.  Since their placement is demanded by the interaction with the Primes, there's not a lot of options there.  But keep in mind that pretty much everyone is going to be assuming that the opposite of Life is Death, while in the chart Life appears to be opposed by Dragon.  It honestly looks like Life, Light, and Holy are on the side of Order, and opposed by Dragon, Undead, and Death by Chaos.  (Maybe the dotted lines I just dismissed is intended to counter this intuitive assessment?)  Further, Demon comes with certain built-in expectations, and I'd think that most readers would not assume that it's the equivalent to Lava or Rain (as both Lava and Rain are perfectly natural occurrences in our world, while most people have rarely if ever seen a doom of Demons forecast by the local meteorologist).  You can make that clear in the story, but you'd be fighting an up-hill battle the entire time.

It is very evident the amount of time and care that you have spent in developing this system, and it allows substantial room for being explored in new and novel ways that will also, at the end of the day, seem inevitable.  You seem to have already resolved probably the largest remaining problem with your system before I came along, so I think overall you're in really good shape

First of all, thanks for all the feedback! I really needed it. Second of all, I have made a couple of tweaks to the chart since my last post in this topic, so I'll be attaching the new version to this post. As you will soon notice upon looking at it, I've completely reworked the visual style. The big hexagons are the Primes, the small ones are the Compounds, and the medium one is Aether. Another key change is that Dragon has been reverted back to Lightning, which sadly means that Dragons are not among the primal forms of Life that are born naturally in the world. But hey, on the plus side, that means there can be a God of Dragons. And honestly, the main reason Demon is Fire/Chaos is because, well... What else fits that pair of Primes? I could invent some substance, like Wildfire, and have that be the element, but that seems a bit cheap and, honestly, dull. "it's fire, but more chaotic, who would have guessed?", Yknow? Demons, however, do have the relation to both fire and chaos, and I like the odd quirk of Holy not being the perfect counter-compound to Demon.

I am also reworking Compatibilities and Counters in the chart. Rather than having dotted lines, it's based more on what "quadrant" of the chart that the Compound falls into. Compounds closer to Order/Chaos are Compatible with each other, and Compounds closer to Chaos/Order are countered by those, if that makes sense. Compounds closer to Earth are Compatible, and Counter elements closer to Air. Pairs of Compounds and Primes directly opposite to each other are Direct Counters, which means they effectively neutralize each other when forcibly mixed by the will of a magic user or the like. This makes Ice mages incredibly valued in battling Demons, but at the same time, the Demons pose the threat of overwhelming an Ice mage and killing them, through sheer numbers. It's a bit like matter-antimatter annihilation, whichever has more left over is what remains.

Another part of why I put Demon as the fire/chaos compound is because... Holy is a compound as well. It struck me as odd to have one and not the other (and, for reference, basically this ENTIRE system was borne of my desire to have "light" and "holy" be present and considered separate elements in a magic system, contrary to most that you might see. It was just another quirk I wanted my system to have when I thought of it. From that concept, the idea of using the 4 classic Elements as well as Order and Chaos came into existence, and thus the previous chart was developed, and tweaked, and now, further tweaks have been made.

Also, regarding your worry of Life and Death not being opposites, that too is an intended quirk of the system. Life, Death, and Undeath are intended to be the "Mortal Trinity" of Compounds (as called in-world by magical scholars). Life is borne of earth and water, and as most Living things age, their Life element gradually decays into Death element, causing the effects of aging that we know and love. Wrinkled skin, arthritis, memory loss... It's a consequence of losing your natural supply of Life element, and gaining your natural buildup of Death element. When all of an organism's Life element decays to Death, that is when it dies of old age. When an organism is killed forcibly, its Life element either dissipates, leaving only the Death element it had produced, or its Life element rapidly undergoes Decay to Death, depending on the circumstances of its demise.

Also, with Dragon's change to Lightning, this means we have the "Divinity Trinity" of Holy, Light, and Lightning (thor/zeus-like gods confirmed), and yes, electrical spells will be rather effective at killing things. It is the Direct Counter of Life, and it is Compatible with Death. But, Lightning is also Compatible with Undeath. In the right application, lightning spells can defibrilate living things with nonfunctional but relatively healthy bodies, at the cost of converting a slight amount of their natural Life element to Undeath. This raises loads of ethical and moral questions in the medical and magical communities in-world, where mages and philosophers alike have to decide whether it's the right thing to do to someone; allow their death to take place, "naturally", or to cheat death with the cost of becoming a partially undead creature.

It's also worth noting that the Compounds between Primes and Aether are now Compatible with that Prime. Death and Air, an airborne sickness or plague. Earth and Light, fluorescent or phosphorescent minerals. Undeath and Fire, eeeh... I'll think about that one some more. Life and Order, well... Intelligent life seeks to impose order on its surroundings. A pack of wolves, a village of people... Holy and Water, well. Holy water. That one's sort of a given. Lightning and Chaos, well, that sort of returns to the issue of "Wildfire" being the chaos/fire element. It'd have to be some sort of made-up substance, wouldn't it.

Anyway, feel free to give yet more feedback on this new setup, so that I can yet-again hone in on a more perfect system.

[PlagiaSpoter]

You're created absolutely nothing, it's just a copy past of something already existing, it's the same elementals things from the mod called Thaumcraft for Minecraft.

(And I don't know if this mod take that from another stuff)

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, PlagiaSpoter said:

You're created absolutely nothing, it's just a copy past of something already existing, it's the same elementals things from the mod called Thaumcraft for Minecraft.

(And I don't know if this mod take that from another stuff)

Order and Chaos are primordial forces in a lot of Mesopotamian religions, and Earth Air Water and Fire are the Platonic elements used in just about everything, the combinations are basic interpretations.

[PlagiaSpoter]

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Order and Chaos are primordial forces in a lot of Mesopotamian religions, and Earth Air Water and Fire are the Platonic elements used in just about everything, the combinations are basic interpretations.

Yes, I know that, I didn't say what I say for that (sorry for the lack of details of my part). I especially point my fingers at the mixtures of the "primary" elements:
Example: Water + Chaos = Death
And all the other on the list is the sames of the mod in the game, or else a simplification of them.
(The only one thing change, it's the names of the elements : Aqua --> Water | Terra --> Earth | etc...)

Sorry, I simply find that suspicious :s
It can be chance too ! But I believe in it less and less now.

PS: Sorry, English is not my main language.

Edited April 13, 2021 by PlagiaSpoter

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, PlagiaSpoter said:

PS: Sorry, English is not my main language.

That's fine

1 hour ago, PlagiaSpoter said:

Yes, I know that, I didn't say what I say for that (sorry for the lack of details of my part). I especially point my fingers at the mixtures of the "primary" elements:
Example: Water + Chaos = Death
And all the other on the list is the sames of the mod in the game, or else a simplification of them.
(The only one thing change, it's the names of the elements : Aqua --> Water | Terra --> Earth | etc...)

Sorry, I simply find that suspicious :s
It can be chance too ! But I believe in it less and less now.

It happens other places, DnD, WoT.

The combinations are based off of ideals and culture so people generally should get the same ideas when mixing them.

 

@Halyo_Alex

I'm not sure Chaos and order fit with what you have in mind, and admittedly it could just be my understanding, but you seem to have Chaos as simultaniously chaotic and also inherently negative, while order seems to add, which doesn't exactly fit with the definitions.