NextStep

What Surge or Order is over water?

25 posts in this topic

I was thinking about something I read in WoR a while back. I can't remember if it was Eshonai, Venli or one of the Group of 5 parshendi that said it, and I can't remember the exact words or context it was. Something about that there are no surges or Radiant orders that have mastery over the water.

It got me to wonder why that might be, and I don't know of anything of the current orders being associated with the water. I was thinking about the giant water spren of Rall Elorim and the water creature in Herdaz might be connected to this somehow? Would having control over the water be Odium related? Someone more knowledgeable help me with these thoughts.

I'll try and go back and find the quote I remember in my head and post it here when I find it, since it's the reason why I started this topic.

Edited by NextStep
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It's unlikely that any orders are able to control water directly (however most of them can affect them through there abilities). From what we know, all intelligent spren can be bonded so it's possible.

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Mistspren (the spren that were working on the honorspren ship) are intelligent spren who have not previously bonded. Whether they can't or just chose not to we don't know.

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I think if any order could it would be those with transformation, cohesion, or tension. 

Also, the transportation surge let's you walk on water when you go to Shadesmar ;)

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I bet cohesion could solidity.  water without making it cold since it can soften solids without making them hot.

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That's what I was thinking. That, mixed with tension (Stonewards) could probably pack a punch. 

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You probably could shape water with cohesion (I think that's the one that lets you reshape stone, not sure), but then you have the issue of water already being fluid, so even if you reshape it, it's just going to fall back into a puddle or surface of a body of water. Not sure if any surge could harden water, but it's possible.

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Mastery over water? I'm really curious what this is referring to. Stormlight isn't Avatar: The Last Airbender. It's not like there's a Surge giving "mastery" over each element/essence. :lol: I expect many Surges can interact with water, just as much as they do with any other substance...

It's possible Adhesion works with water. Khriss thinks it's related to "atmospheric pressure", and it's only a small jump from there to manipulation of pressure in fluids in general. (so... when are we going to get a Windrunner to dive into Aimia's underwater caves?) Don't see any reason why Gravitation can't be applied to water, though I can't imagine what the use would be. Division superheats water to steam? Abrasion makes it a better lubricant? Obviously it can be Soulcasted. And we don't know much about Cohesion and Tension, but why not?

So it's probably just Progression, Illumination, and Transportation which are irrelevant when it comes to water.

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6 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Mastery over water? I'm really curious what this is referring to. Stormlight isn't Avatar: The Last Airbender. It's not like there's a Surge giving "mastery" over each element/essence. :lol: I expect many Surges can interact with water, just as much as they do with any other substance...

It's possible Adhesion works with water. Khriss thinks it's related to "atmospheric pressure", and it's only a small jump from there to manipulation of pressure in fluids in general. (so... when are we going to get a Windrunner to dive into Aimia's underwater caves?) Don't see any reason why Gravitation can't be applied to water, though I can't imagine what the use would be. Division superheats water to steam? Abrasion makes it a better lubricant? Obviously it can be Soulcasted. And we don't know much about Cohesion and Tension, but why not?

So it's probably just Progression, Illumination, and Transportation which are irrelevant when it comes to water.

Illumination can create waves and Transportation can just add motion to the water.

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2 hours ago, MountainKing said:

Illumination can create waves and Transportation can just add motion to the water.

Well, Illumination can create anything. I guess, based on what Shallan did at the end of OB, maybe you can give your illusory waves some kind of substance. But I wouldn't consider that any interaction with actual water.

Transportation = Elsecalling, which so far as we know is just the ability to enter Shadesmar from wherever. (and maybe teleportation?) Nothing about adding motion to physical things.

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Gravitation: make water fly.

Division: make water burn.

Abrasion: make water slippery.. er.

Progression: make aquatic plants grow.

Illumination: probably a lot here since illumination seems to control vibration and frequency.

Transformation: make water other stuff.

Transportation: make water into obsidian.

Tension: walk on water maybe? (I’m thinking surface tension manipulation)

Adhesion: make water balls.

Fun combos:

Gravity and Abrasion should let you move through water at supersonic speeds. Aquaman!

Gravity and Adhesion should let you launch giant water balls.

Probably tons of other fun stuff I haven’t thought of.

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
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4 hours ago, Jofwu said:

Stormlight isn't Avatar: The Last Airbender.

HERALD: THE LAST SURGEBINDER

STORMBLESSED: THE LAST WINDRUNNER

HONOR: THE LAST SHARDHOLDER

CHAMPION: THE LAST VOIDBRINGER

LIFT: THE LAST BREADWINNER

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In terms of Essences, at least, Water falls under the Blood aspect, but isnt as primal an expression of it, which is why it's harder to do, and why Navani worried that her experimental Anti-Humidity fabrial might accidentally suck out the blood of everyone nearby.

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Not sure about surges, but I have a theory that the blades that look water themed (oathbringer for instance) are willshaper shardblades. The reachers are theorized to be willshaper spren. A good chunk of them are sailors (though I do concede other spren do sail as well), and it is said willshapers do enjoy adventure and exploring. A willshaper was going to explore the unsea caverns of aimia. Finally land is water in the cognitive realm, and cohesion lets you shape things as if it was clay or treat it like a liquid. So all of that, although is very very very loose, hints to me those are their blades. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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5 hours ago, Jofwu said:

Well, Illumination can create anything. I guess, based on what Shallan did at the end of OB, maybe you can give your illusory waves some kind of substance. But I wouldn't consider that any interaction with actual water.

Transportation = Elsecalling, which so far as we know is just the ability to enter Shadesmar from wherever. (and maybe teleportation?) Nothing about adding motion to physical things.

Illumination allows you to control any type of wave and anything that can behaves like a wave sometimes, waves follow some transformation of a sign graph so an Lightweaver could create actually waves out of water

Transportation is the surge of transportation and motion. They can give water motion and make waves.

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20 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Illumination allows you to control any type of wave and anything that can behaves like a wave sometimes, waves follow some transformation of a sign graph so an Lightweaver could create actually waves out of water

Transportation is the surge of transportation and motion. They can give water motion and make waves.

For Illumination, good point. My gut feeling is that you're taking "various waveforms" far too literally there. But if you can produce sound, then I suppose you could produce waves in water. I'm not sure how powerful those could be... That'd take an awful lot of energy compared to anything we've seen.

I think you're taking the Ars Arcanum descriptions a bit too far. We don't have much evidence for what those actually mean. But perhaps.

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Another datapoint: The Stormfather stated in OB that men do not belong on the Seas during a storm while grudgingly admitting that some do belong in the Skies (presumably talking about Kaladin and the Windrunners), which makes me definitely think there arent any Radiants that have a strong affinity toward water. 

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8 hours ago, Quantus said:

Another datapoint: The Stormfather stated in OB that men do not belong on the Seas during a storm while grudgingly admitting that some do belong in the Skies (presumably talking about Kaladin and the Windrunners), which makes me definitely think there arent any Radiants that have a strong affinity toward water. 

Thank you! I think this was the passage I was looking for, but forgot where I read it. It was what prompted me to make this topic. Any theories as to why the Stormfather would say that men do not belong in the Seas during a storm? Are the Seas an arena Odium might have an advantage in?

Or am I reading to much into that?

Edited by NextStep
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Just now, NextStep said:

Thank you! I think this was the passage I was looking for, but forgot where I read it. It was what prompted me to make this topic. Any theories as to why the Stormfather would say that men do not belong in the Seas during a storm? Are the Seas an arena Odium might have an advantage in?

I think the point is at sea there is no way to hide from the full brunt of the storm unless you decide to submerge yourself deep under water and grow gills lol. That is why any sea travel involves hugging the coast, and at the first side of a storm, seeking a cove to shelter in. 

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11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I think the point is at sea there is no way to hide from the full brunt of the storm unless you decide to submerge yourself deep under water and grow gills lol. That is why any sea travel involves hugging the coast, and at the first side of a storm, seeking a cove to shelter in. 

I was interpreting that as the Stormfather alluding to human surgebinders operating in a storm, not just ordinary men. That's why I was wondering why he would say specifically human surgebinders have no business in the Seas, but do belong in the Skies. Is there more to that line?

Edited by NextStep
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11 minutes ago, NextStep said:

I was interpreting that as the Stormfather alluding to human surgebinders operating in a storm, not just ordinary men. That's why I was wondering why he would say specifically human surgebinders have no business in the Seas, but do belong in the Skies.

I understand your interpretation. Mine was more mundane. That is why I said I think. I think it is purely practical. He says men to me in a generic form, but that there is an exception due to Kaladin's surge of gravitation. For me sometimes the butler really did do it and there is no hidden meaning of more. But you are entitled to think more of it. 

 

edit: to clarify the exact quote goes like this:

Oathbringer page 497

"I'm thinking of how you treat ships" Dalinar whispered, his physical voice lost to the winds - yet his meaning carried, unhampered, to the Stormfather.

Men should not be upon the waters during a storm, he repied, Men are not of the waves.

"And the sky? Are men of the sky?"

Some are. He said this grudgingly

Dalinar could only imagine how terrible it must be to be a sailor out at sea during a storm. He had taken only short coastwise trips by ship

Edited by Pathfinder
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15 minutes ago, NextStep said:

Thank you! I think this was the passage I was looking for, but forgot where I read it. It was what prompted me to make this topic. Any theories as to why the Stormfather would say that men do not belong in the Seas during a storm? Are the Seas an arena Odium might have an advantage in?

Or am I reading to much into that?

The context of the statement was when Dalinar was getting flown out from Urithiru to the warcamps for the first time and was freaking out slightly on the whole experience:  Dalinar was thinking it was like being on a ship during a storm the helplessness of it.  

SF:  You're thinking of me. I can feel it.

D:  "Im thinking of how you treat ships" 

SF:  Men should not be upon the waters during a storm. Men are not of the waves.

D:  "And the Sky? Are men of the Sky?"

SF: "Some Are. He said this grudgingly."

 

I take it to mean that he generally does think people should get out of his way during a storm and not try to be out in the danger, but is willing to grudgingly acknowledge that Windrunners are an exception.  He did have that whole confrontation with Kaladin where Kal was trying to get him to go easy on some folks that were stuck out in the storm, and when he would/could not (Syl compared it to asked a fire to Please Stop Being Hot) Kal used a Surge to split the storm, and later by way of "apology" the Stormfather used the winds to guide Kal back to Urithiru when his mission was done.

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Clearly it's time for a Thaylen Naval Officer to become a KR and work with Navani to make a submarine-fabrial and travel to the Origin. (Calling it here folks.)

:D 

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I think the 'big picture' reason why there isn't a Radiant Order with any special affinity towards water is because the Surges are based on the Rosharan conception of fundamental forces and none of those have any special place set aside for water as a 'force' any more than we do in the real world where we see four fundamental forces (strong and weak nuclear interaction, gravitation and electomagnetism). There are some forces that can interact with water in more obvious ways but that doesn't mean there's a water-centric power and there's no reason for there to be one.

Incidentally Brandon avoids magic system based around the classic elements because he feels those are overdone. Therefore we're unlikely to ever see any explicit 'water magic' or 'fire magic' or what have you in the series, though we'll occasionally get stuff that looks more elemental when the specific combinations of powers interact just so, as with Windrunning and the Stonewards. As a bonus, the same WoB where Brandon talks about elemental magic is also one where he explains Roshar, so have a two-for-one WoB:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Endpapers

The endpapers were one of the things that we weren't certain whether we'd get into the final book or not. Tor was iffy on paying for them, as they add a large expense to the novels. In the end, Tor stepped up because they believed in the project, for which I am very grateful.

These are one of the last things we finished, and it took several tries to get them right. I knew I wanted them to be in-world pieces of art–things that are supposed to have been created by artists living within the world of Roshar. The front endpapers are murals crafted from stone and gems fitted together, and the back endpapers are stained glass. But the tones and the exact look of the images took some time to get right. (For a while, the symbols of the various magics on the first one had gemstones overlaying them. That turned out to look bad on the page. Perhaps when Peter is putting this up, he can grab those old drafts and post them beneath here.)

The first one of these is the one I'll talk about the most, the design that outlines the magic for Roshar. (Well, some of the magic.) This design is one of the very first things I developed for the art of this book, way back in 2001. The "Double Eye," as the people in world would call it, is a connection of ten elements.

I avoid elemental magic systems. I feel they're overdone. However, one of the concepts of this world was to have a theology that believed in ten fundamental elements instead of the ordinary four or five. A focus would be on them, and on the ten fundamental forces—the interplay between the two being a major factor in the magic, the philosophy, and the cosmology of the world.

Well, that's what these twenty symbols represent, with each of the larger symbols being a Radiant element. The smaller symbols are the forces. You can draw a circle around one element and the two forces that connect to it, and you have one of the orders of Knights Radiant.

For example, top right is the symbol for air—with the symbols for pressure and gravitation connected to it. The Windrunners. 

source

 

Edited by Weltall
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