Kaladin's relationship

[Gaz]

Since there's a poll about who Shallan will end up with, I did the same for Kaladin

[maxal]

Not Shallan or so I hope. Having the main male character hook up with the main female character is just too much of a cliche. However, I do see something happening between the two as Kaladin is obviously interested. I hope they will both realise there are better suited as friends. I also hope that "something" will not ruined Kaladin and Adolin's new friendship as these two are in dire need of a friend. Anyway, I am a sucker for the Shallodin as I think these two are really cute together. Unlike many people, I do think Shallan is being pretty much herself with Adolin letting her curiosity and sharp tongue get the better of her and surprisingly, it worked. I guess Adolin was tired of telling the same old boring stories over and over again.

 

For Kaladin, I just don't know who could be his love interest. I was thinking maybe Laral or some other character with haven't met yet. Not Jasnah though. I think Jasnah will remain Jasnah, ie single. Not every character needs to be in a relationship although I agree that Kaladin should definitely be in one.

[AerionBFII]

There hasn't been enough main female characters yet so ill choose Unknown.

Navani strikes me as a couger but she's smitten with Dalinar LOL

Jasnah is an ice queen when it comes to men, atleast until Hoid will woo her on their adventures in the epilogue. (Bonnie and Clyde)

Shallan is possible but i only like her in small doses but i'd personally like to see him with somebody else

[Kobold King]

I feel a little odd about the concept of shipping Lift, even though I know that she'll be in her twenties by the end of the series.

Does anyone else wonder whether we'll be seeing more of Jenet the stablemaster, perhaps as a romantic interest for Kaladin? Or if not as the end romantic interest, as a romantic sub-plot?

[Ketek]

Jasnah. Although it would make her a cougar of sorts.

[deddinty]

I feel like we need options for Tarah, Laral, and Jenet since those three are favorites I see around the shipping fandom. I suppose they're covered in the other category though.

 

And Lift isn't that bad, as long as you assume it happens in the future. There's nearly the same age difference between Adolin and Shallan as Lift and Kaladin.

 

Personally I ship Renarin x Lift though.  He needs someone to liven his life up and make him smile.

Edited April 20, 2014 by deddinty

[Shaggai]

He's obviously going to end up with Gaz.

[bookspren]

@Kobold

Glad to see I'm not the only one. I think Jenet seems like the type of person Kaladin would go for--straightforward, does her own thing. Even if nothing happens between her and Kaladin, I'd like to see her show up again. She was cool.

I fully expect the Shallan/Kaladin relationship to play an important part in the next book, but I'd rather see them as friends. I just really like Shallan/Adolin and I don't want Kaladin messing that up. He can find someone else.

Edited April 20, 2014 by bookspren

[Kobold King]

Personally I ship Renarin x Lift though.  He needs someone to liven his life up and make him smile.

This ship is now called "Awesome Ridiculous".

[Terra of Roshar]

This ship is now called "Awesome Ridiculous".

 

This is a ridiculously awesome idea.

[Abalidoth]

Renarin or Adolin -- the former would be a very sweet and slow courtship, the latter would be a very bantery and tense one.

 

Why is everyone assuming Kaladin isn't bi, hmmm?

 

(Okay, seriously, think about it. If a female character had gotten herself thrown in prison for Kaladin's sake, you all would be touting it to the Tranquilline Halls as true love.)

Edited April 21, 2014 by Abalidoth

[A Joe in the Bush]

Having just Read Periapsis, Abalidoth does have a Point, but Brandon has said that he won't include a Gay Character until he knows he can do it right without offending people. And one of Bridge 4 (Starts with a D, But I listened to the Book so can't spell) is based off a Gay guy in real life.

 

That being said, I don't think Kaladin will end up with anyone else. If you've read Orson Scott Card's Xenocide, You might understand this. Because Kal has Syl, his chances with other woman, unless they're also Radiant, are diminished. So Shallan seems the Most likely, But I don't think it will happen.

[Maffu17]

And one of Bridge 4 (Starts with a D, But I listened to the Book so can't spell) is based off a Gay guy in real life.

Me too, do you mean the one that sounds like Drayi?

Edited April 21, 2014 by Maffu17

[Abalidoth]

Having just Read Periapsis, Abalidoth does have a Point, but Brandon has said that he won't include a Gay Character until he knows he can do it right without offending people. And one of Bridge 4 (Starts with a D, But I listened to the Book so can't spell) is based off a Gay guy in real life.

 

That being said, I don't think Kaladin will end up with anyone else. If you've read Orson Scott Card's Xenocide, You might understand this. Because Kal has Syl, his chances with other woman, unless they're also Radiant, are diminished. So Shallan seems the Most likely, But I don't think it will happen.

That's exactly my point, though. Brandon has been making an effort to include queer characters (Drehy, Ranette, and at a signing he talked about transgender Returned on Nalthis, etc) and, once he dips his toe in and proves he can do it well (which we're still waiting to see Drehy's romantic arc to be sure about that, but I'm optimistic) what's to stop him from breaking some boundaries with main characters?

 

Queer people should be allowed to be heroes, not just sidekicks.

[Ketek]

 

Queer people should be allowed to be heroes, not just sidekicks.

 

Yes, but it's really at the writer's discretion, so we can talk for ages about this subject, but unless we intend to write our own books this line of discussion is pointless. 

 

And this may be uncomfortable to some, considering how we're all big fans of his writing, but Sanderson has a slight problem with homosexuality. Granted, it was three years ago and he may have changed his stance on gay marriage, but I find that unlikely. It's not very easy to change what you believe in even when given time, and one's beliefs does influence the nature of one's writing. 

 

I don't expect an openly gay main character anytime soon, let alone a same-sex romance arc in his novels - it'll take time for Sanderson to work through his beliefs, and putting an LGBT main character inside 'just because' would ruin his books. If it ever comes, it has to be natural.

 

Before you get offended, this is not a criticism of Sanderson, although it would be if he were openly discriminating against the LGBT community. I'm just saying that we cannot realistically expect a main character who's not straight anytime soon. It is what it is, although I'll admit that if the day ever comes, I'll be overjoyed.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Ketek

[Abalidoth]

Yes, but it's really at the writer's discretion, so we can talk for ages about this subject, but unless we intend to write our own books this line of discussion is pointless.

I am, actually, writing my own fantasy novels. Slowly, and I'm not sure I'm ever going to be publishable, but... and yes, most of them have nonstraight main characters. Trust me, I know the direction that change is coming from, and am doing my part -- that's not what I'm talking about here.

 

And this may be uncomfortable to some, considering how we're all big fans of his writing, but Sanderson has a slight problem with homosexuality. Granted, it was three years ago and he may have changed his stance on gay marriage, but I find that unlikely. It's not very easy to change what you believe in even when given time, and one's beliefs does influence the nature of one's writing. 

I don't expect an openly gay main character anytime soon, let alone a same-sex romance arc in his novels - it'll take time for Sanderson to work through his beliefs, and putting an LGBT main character inside 'just because' would ruin his books. If it ever comes, it has to be natural.

I have a vested interest in seeing Brandon do queer characters right. And as such, I've been following pretty much every newspost and signing question he's ever answered about the topic. Many of those questions were in fact asked by some of my close friends, who have a similarly vested interest. And in that knowledge I say this: he's said some things, especially recently, that make me very optimistic about the direction that representation in his work is going to take.

 

What I'm saying is, give him some credit. Not only was that post from three years ago, but the part where he mentioned being uncomfortable was mostly in the part from seven years ago. He's said a lot of stuff since.

 

That said.

 

Why exactly would having a main character who isn't straight "ruin" the book? Including a queer character "just because" is only bad if that's their only personality characteristic. Brandon is a good author with a knack for complex characterization, and I don't think even at his least nuanced he would let a character be reduced to a single attribute like that.

Before you get offended, this is not a criticism of Sanderson, although it would be if he were openly discriminating against the LGBT community. I'm just saying that we cannot realistically expect a main character who's not straight anytime soon. It is what it is, although I'll admit that if the day ever comes, I'll be overjoyed.

I didn't read it as a criticism of Brandon, and I'm not offended, but I do think you're not giving him enough credit. And the number one thing that will make him more interested to include representation is if his fans talk about it and make their interest known -- which is exactly what I'm doing.

 

And I'd rather do that through exuberant shipping than through dry academic rebuttal, so let me bring this back on topic.

 

I am firmly on Team Kadolin, and their interactions were one of my favorite parts of WoR. Am I the only one who sees "bridgeboy" turning into a term of endearment over the course of the book...?

[Ketek]

 

Why exactly would having a main character who isn't straight "ruin" the book? Including a queer character "just because" is only bad if that's their only personality characteristic. Brandon is a good author with a knack for complex characterization, and I don't think even at his least nuanced he would let a character be reduced to a single attribute like that.

 

 

I don't think it would, really! I do think that a character he can't relate to would ruin the book though - and that's where it stands at right now, imho. Like how he thought Khriss from White Sand was terrible because he couldn't really write women well enough then.

 

 

I have a vested interest in seeing Brandon do queer characters right. And as such, I've been following pretty much every newspost and signing question he's ever answered about the topic. Many of those questions were in fact asked by some of my close friends, who have a similarly vested interest. And in that knowledge I say this: he's said some things, especially recently, that make me very optimistic about the direction that representation in his work is going to take.

 

What I'm saying is, give him some credit. Not only was that post from three years ago, but the part where he mentioned being uncomfortable was mostly in the part from seven years ago. He's said a lot of stuff since.

 

You make fair points, and I don't disagree. It's just that religious beliefs are hard to shake, and I've always been a pessimist at heart. But it could happen, yeah. Let's hope it does

 

 

I am, actually, writing my own fantasy novels. Slowly, and I'm not sure I'm ever going to be publishable, but... and yes, most of them have nonstraight main characters. Trust me, I know the direction that change is coming from, and am doing my part -- that's not what I'm talking about here.

 

So am I, and I have the same fears. I do hope it all works out for you though, heh. We definitely need more LGBT characters around. I was reading A Republic of Thieves recently and there were two minor characters inside - more like props, really - who were a gay couple. But the awesome part about that scene was how there wasn't any homophobia from the other 'props', everyone looked on it as being normal.

 

It's a small thing, but it's something I dearly wish I'll someday see in real life.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Ketek

[Maffu17]

Is the word queer OK again now? I'm English and to me it still sounds wrong, but I'm not someone with their finger on the pulse. Here we seem to use gay as the politically correct word.

I don't have any gay friends and still look quickly away if i happen upon gay porn while surfing. But I would be 100% cool with kaladin doing whatever / whoever he likes, I trust Brandon will find the true path for him whichever it is.

[Sylveris]

Regarding the LGBT thing, while I won't stop reading a book simply because the main character is gay, it won't be the reason I will read it in the first place.

I definitely doesn't have problems with gay people, given that my uncle is gay and I spend most of my time visiting the big city hanging with him and his boyfriend, but I think that as someone who likes romantic plots (as long as they don't take over the story), one of the things that help me relate to a character (which is pretty important to enjoy a book) is its romantic plot, and I know that as a straight guy, it easier for me to relate to B/G stories (and to some extant G/B and even G/G ones).

I think this is true for most people, and I think the reason most author write straight characters is that most of them are straight and so are most of their readers (given that 9 out of ten people are straight, its statistics), so I think it just a combination of authors writing characters that come more easily for them and readers wanting characters they can easily relate to.

And, to be honest, I think it will be far more interesting read to read a gay character POV written by a gay author, since just like how male characters are easier for men to write and female for women, it would be far more natural and done properly.

 

Regarding the Kaladin shipping, my choice (like in the Shallan topic) is Shallan. I just really like their interactions, and feel they really fit each other, and I LOVED the chasm sceen. (And, to be honest, I remember amusing myself with Shalladin and Shadolin when I finished WoK, I was actually surprised when I first got to the forum abou the strength of the Shallarin ship, the two of them never seemed fitting for each other).

Another pairing that I think will work for Kaladin is Jenet (who I think together with Laral should really be in the poll), I just really liked her short part in WoR, especially her interaction with Kaladin, she just feel really like the lighteye virsion of Kaladin (instead of a [formerly] darkeye who is educated and act like a lighteye, holding a lighteye position, she is a low-level lighteye who desn't seem to give a damnation about her social status and just do what she likes), so I think they are opposite in just the right things, and could work really well together.

For Laral and Tarah, I think both of them are issues that Kaladin need to work through, no matter with who he will end up with, but I got a feeling that if either of one is a romantic option, it is Laral, since his relationship with her ended quite suddenly and unexpectedly (after her father's death) and might still have a chance to return romanticly-wise. Tarah on the other hand, we barely know anything about, beside that Kaladin think he messed up really bad with her, so if there is anything there remains to be seen.

Regarding Jasnah, while I don't think she will have anything romantic with Kaladin, I could see them learning to respect each other in the future, maybe ending up as friends, it's just the romantic side that doesn't seem likely to me.

And lastly, Lift..... just... no. I don't know, it doesn't feel right to me (regardless of the 8 year age deference, which is kinda critical when she is 13...). On the other hand, a future pairing between her and Renarin, in the back five when they suppose to be the main characters, sound really nice and interesting!

[Abalidoth]

Is the word queer OK again now? I'm English and to me it still sounds wrong, but I'm not someone with their finger on the pulse. Here we seem to use gay as the politically correct word.

 

"Queer" has been reclaimed as a specific umbrella term referring to, basically, "not straight". The reason I was using it instead of "gay" is that it's a lot more accurate -- if (to keep this marginally on topic) Kaladin were to date Renarin, he wouldn't be "gay". He's expressed interest in women -- he'd probably be something approximating bi. Using the term "queer" lets you keep from making assumptions like that.

 

Regarding the LGBT thing, while I won't stop reading a book simply because the main character is gay, it won't be the reason I will read it in the first place.

I definitely doesn't have problems with gay people, given that my uncle is gay and I spend most of my time visiting the big city hanging with him and his boyfriend, but I think that as someone who likes romantic plots (as long as they don't take over the story), one of the things that help me relate to a character (which is pretty important to enjoy a book) is its romantic plot, and I know that as a straight guy, it easier for me to relate to B/G stories (and to some extant G/B and even G/G ones).

 

Think about it this way: Being a straight guy, pretty much every fantasy novel out there has a protagonist that looks like you. You just said yourself that you relate better to that kind of character, right?

 

How many fantasy novels do you think that a person who isn't straight can relate to on the same level?

 

Imagine if every book on the fantasy shelf had a main character you had trouble relating to like that. And every time you brought the problem up, someone dismissed your remarks with "well, they're all just like me, so I identify with them just fine!"

 

It doesn't matter whether you would be more likely to pick up a book with a gay protagonist, because for you there's already a plethora of options. It matters because there are people waiting their whole lives to read a book in their favorite genre with a protag that looks like them.

 

Yes, ideally, there would be a lot more LGBT fantasy authors getting published. (Incidentally, the reason you don't see them has more to do with publisher bias than it does with statistics, but that's a digression...) But Brandon is one of my favorite authors, and I don't think it's out of line for me to want him to write a protagonist that I can relate to a little better.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Abalidoth

[Sylveris]

I didn't said there should be no gay fantasy protagonists, only that they are less likely.

Like I said, I won't mind reading a book with a gay protagonist, but I believe it will be far more interesting read if written by a gay author, simply because the author will write far more believable characters. If Brandon is going to write a book with a gay protagonist, he will need far more practice writing this kind of character, I mean, just look at how much he improved writing female characters. I just think that if Brandon started to write a book with a gay protagonist / reveal one of his characters to be gay, it won't be written as good as he can, and might even get negative criticism for it (like he got from some reviews for the Final Empire and Elantris, that said he put women in bad light and didn't know how to properly represent them).

So. in the end, I think that if Brandon is going to write LGBT characters, he should start with minor and secondary ones, at least until he get good enough in writing them so they could be the main characters without harming his writing. (After all, one of the best things about Brandon is his characterization and him creating believable and interesting characters, and suddenly writing an unrealistic gay character just so it will be a gay character is against his best qualities).

[rererak]

I don't know if it's been pointed out, but I find it amusing that "Gaz" started this. Is this outta spite you one-eyed man?

ALso, the Lift vote makes me raise an eyebrow. I suppose in a few years it'd look odd but Lift is only 10! Well... 10 for 3 years...

[maxal]

I have no issues reading about gay relationships, if it is well written and plausible. In the case of WoK and WoR, none of the characters have been fleshed out as potentially gay, let alone Kaladin. None of his previous relationships worked, true, but he is only 19. Many 19 years old have no working relationship in their past either. We have clearly read about his love interests: Laral, Tarah, Shallan and all were women so if Kaladin starts pinning for say Adolin, well I would be offended as a reader. Not offended because I believe main protagonists should not be gay, but because it wouldn't be consistent with the character. Sanderson would need to bring out some serious writing to make it believable and for this reason alone, I hope we won't be reading about a gay Kaladin.

 

However, I would be fine with any other character being gay. Somebody mentioned one of the bridge 4 guy. That sounds perfect. Or even Renarin. We haven't seen him with any women interest and we know most of them think he is creepy (not just Shallan). The character has not been fleshed out so much, therefore if he did turned out being gay, I would be fine with it. In fact, the more I think of it, the more I like the idea.

[Gabriele]

Why is everyone assuming Kaladin isn't bi, hmmm?

Lol, I totally ship Kaladin/Adolin.

 

And if people absolutely want to give him a girlfriend, too, double fun. *insert devil smiley*

 

I am, actually, writing my own fantasy novels. Slowly, and I'm not sure I'm ever going to be publishable, but... and yes, most of them have nonstraight main characters. Trust me, I know the direction that change is coming from, and am doing my part -- that's not what I'm talking about here.

I got some non-straight characters in my novels-in-progress as well. Never planned it, but it just happened when I wrote them that some characters turned out several shades of queer.  Now I have the fun to make that fit in historical contexts. Edited April 22, 2014 by FeatherWriter
Please don't double post! Use the multiquote button!

[Shaggai]

I don't know if it's been pointed out, but I find it amusing that "Gaz" started this. Is this outta spite you one-eyed man?

ALso, the Lift vote makes me raise an eyebrow. I suppose in a few years it'd look odd but Lift is only 10! Well... 10 for 3 years...

Oh, wow. I didn't even realize that.

 

Also, Rosharan years are a bit longer than Earth years. She's still too young, but not quite a 13-year-old.