Kaladin's relationship

[xianpoxi]

You might want to break your thoughts into paragraphs in the future @Xianpoxi. That giant block of text is a bit intimidating.

 

 

GRR,,. I know. I think this forum hates Chrome.

 

I have to edit every one of my posts to but my spaces back in. It removes all line spaces on new posts which are not replies... 

 

I didn't have time to edit it this morning.

 

*Paragraphs separated.

Edited May 6, 2014 by xianpoxi

[FeatherWriter]

I don't think it's an issue with Chrome, Xian, as that's what I use. If you're having trouble formatting however, you might try using the plain text editor instead of the rich text editor. There should be a lightswitch-looking symbol at the top of the post editor that will let you switch between the two.

[Shaggai]

GRR,,. I know. I think this forum hates Chrome.

 

I have to edit every one of my posts to but my spaces back in. It removes all line spaces on new posts which are not replies... 

 

I didn't have time to edit it this morning.

 

*Paragraphs separated.

Paragraphs work even if you just hit "Enter" once. It still breaks it into easier-to-manage chunks.

[xianpoxi]

There's a very big difference between respecting someone's privacy, and willfully refusing to empathize with them. You're falling to the latter, here.

 

 No, I'm insisting on boundaries. Linton's comment insisted that somehow any other readers should pay particular attention or sensitivity to his or her sexuality. The implication is that readers are doing something wrong by not taking special consideration of another, unknown, reader's personal life. That is a false premise  and its exhibitionist.  

 

To simplify the logic I'll paraphrase Linton'scomment: "Don't ignore my opinion because you don't think its relevant to the characters. If you do, then you are insulting those who are bisexual".[/background]

 

It is exactly relevant for the discussion whether a reader thinks Brandon will or won't write a bisexual character or hasn't written a bisexual character. To say otherwise implies that other readers need to make special considerations on one's opinion because that one is bisexual, not for any merit of the opinion. 

 

Maybe that's not exactly what was intended, but I can only understand the words written. Unlike verbal communication, forums only have text.

On another note, Is there something wrong with refusing to empathize with someone? Its not nice to refuse to sympathize, but empathy is not sympathy.  Is bisexuality something to be pitied? I didn't have that impression.

 

Empathy is understanding and FEELING the same feelings as another. I don't see why anyone should be required to internalize the feelings of another.

 

I don't think it's an issue with Chrome, Xian, as that's what I use. If you're having trouble formatting however, you might try using the plain text editor instead of the rich text editor. There should be a lightswitch-looking symbol at the top of the post editor that will let you switch between the two.

Thank you!

The trouble has just been that all return characters were removed when I submit a post.

It does seem to be the rich text editor. Error popups always appeared when it loaded and closed. They do not appear on the plain text editor.

[DeployParachute]

There's a very big difference between respecting someone's privacy, and willfully refusing to empathize with them. You're falling to the latter, here.

 

While I agree that xianpoxi's wording could have been chosen more carefully, I believe I understand the point that was trying to be made.  Wanting to investigate and debate a character's sexuality based on textual evidence available within the books is not the same as failing to empathize with someone's sexual preferences.   Let me see if I can convey the idea differently based on the posts in question

 

As usual, Kadolin is my ship.  There is more chemistry there than any other pairing (except possibly Shasnah but we've only seen one side of that).

 

Also guys, please stop ignoring the possibility of bisexuality in characters. This isn't even because I think Brandon will or won't do something, but when you ignore that and just say "Kaladin isn't gay" you also are ignoring those of us who are neither straight or gay. 

 

First, leinton makes a request for people to stop ignoring the possibility of bisexuality in characters.  As someone who has read through all the posts in this thread, I can't say that I recall anyone here saying that bisexual characters within the book series are impossible or even improbable.  Everyone seems to be on the same page that a bisexual character is very likely, and they may in fact already exist.  

 

The contention appears to be centered around  one specific character, whom leinton specifically names in the quoted post.  I just want to point out that those who are making that claim that Kaladin is heterosexual are doing so based on evidence found within the text of the two published books.  When examining evidence to support one's argument, one's sexual orientation should not be a factor.  Evidence, or lack thereof, is evidence regardless of personal tastes or preferences.  A person's sexual preferences are not being disregarded in this case, and should not be taken as such.  It is simply, irrelevant.  That is the idea I believe xianpoxi was trying to get across.

 

So I will conclude this with a request of my own:

Please, do not take statements like "I believe Kaladin's character is straight" as a personal affront to your sexuality, because it is not.  It is simply an argument put forth based on the available textual evidence present.  It is an argument that I also happen to share, and have a high confidence level in.  However, if that evidence changes, well then we'll just have to adapt 

 

 

xianpoxi's post for reference:

 

Yep, I'm completely ignoring your sex life as it has nothing to do with me. I hope you will also completely ignore my sex life also as it has nothing to do with you.

 

Oh yeah, Kaladin isn't gay. It seems rather clear in the story that he's straight. 

 

Everyone can feel free to entertain the fantasies of whatever character relationships they want, but its seems rather inconsistent with the story and characters. When your break that continuity it hurts a story. You lose the willing suspension of disbelief from your audience.

Edited May 6, 2014 by DeployParachute

[shawnhargreaves]

Linton's comment insisted that somehow any other readers should pay particular attention or sensitivity to his or her sexuality. The implication is that readers are doing something wrong by not taking special consideration of another, unknown, reader's personal life.

 

I think you are misinterpreting that comment.   Leinton actually made a couple of different points:

1. Since the text does not explicitly say anything about whether Kaldin experiences same sex attraction, it's not accurate to jump to the conclusion he does not.
2. There are more possible outcomes than just straight or gay.  The statement "he likes women, so cannot be gay" is ignoring many other valid possibilities

[Aleksiel]

The statement "he likes women, so cannot be gay" is ignoring many other valid possibilities

 

 

As far as I am aware of such definitions, the statement is correct. It doesn't exclude any other possibilities for Kaladin's orientation. We can also add that it's save to say Kaladin isn't asexual. Now we're clear on what isn't Kal's sexuality.

 

All we know for sure is that Kal had a bit of crush on Laral and may be a romantic relationship with a girl named Tarah. The easiest conclusion is that Kaladin is straight, however it's far from the only option.The possibility of Kal being bi doesn't have much text support, however lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack.

 

It's understandable for Kal to not have naughty thoughts on a bridge run. In WoR he shows romantic interest in the only person he felt connected to - Shallan. He doesn't have such a bond, such shared understanding even with his fellow bridgemen.  So Kaladin really hasn't let himself relax enough to fancy anyone, but Shallan at the very end. Not enough to declare his sexual orientation.

 

I personally fan-ship Kadolin and Jasadin, but both are equally unlikely as far as theory shipping goes. 

[Abalidoth]

No, I'm insisting on boundaries. Linton's comment insisted that somehow any other readers should pay particular attention or sensitivity to his or her sexuality. The implication is that readers are doing something wrong by not taking special consideration of another, unknown, reader's personal life.  That is a false premise  and its exhibitionist.

 

Yeah, I thought the four-page graphic story about Leinton's sex life was a litle mu...

 

Wait, that's not something that happened.

 

Leinton wasn't asking you to consider one, individual person. He was asking you to please remember that bisexual people as a whole exist, and not use "attracted to women" as evidence against "attracted to men".

 

If you think that "I am bisexual" constitutes exhibitionism, I don't know what to tell you.

 

To simplify the logic I'll paraphrase Linton's comment: "Don't ignore my opinion because you don't think its relevant to the characters. If you do, then you are insulting those who are bisexual".

 

Absolutely, categorically not what he was saying. What's insulting to bisexual people isn't just not thinking a character is bi. It's using evidence that they're attracted to one gender as evidence that they aren't attracted to a different gender.

 

If you're really gung-ho to prove Kaladin's not attracted to dudes, whatever, go for it. (Although I'm not sure why someone would restrict their shipping options like that.)

 

It's when you start out with the ingrained assumption that he cannot be bi, therefore he must be either gay or straight? That's the problem.

 

It is exactly relevant for the discussion whether a reader thinks Brandon will or won't write a bisexual character or hasn't written a bisexual character. To say otherwise implies that other readers need to make special considerations on one's opinion because that one is bisexual, not for any merit of the opinion.

 

Again, nobody is asking you to make special considerations for any individual person.

 

We're asking everyone to stop making inaccurate and offensive assumptions about an entire group.

 

 

On another note, Is there something wrong with refusing to empathize with someone? Its not nice to refuse to sympathize, but empathy is not sympathy.  Is bisexuality something to be pitied? I didn't have that impression.

 

Empathy is understanding and FEELING the same feelings as another. I don't see why anyone should be required to internalize the feelings of another.

Bisexuality is not something to be pitied, no. But biphobia and bisexual erasure are things to at least acknowledge.

 

If you don't think you should at least make a cursory effort to understand someone else's problems, especially when they're directly telling you that they're unhappy being erased? Then I'm very sorry for you.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Abalidoth

[FeatherWriter]

Quick mod note: Xian, please try to avoid double posting. If you would like to respond to more than one post, you can either use the multiquote button or quote buttons to pull more than one quote into your post. I've edited the double post together for now and you're not in trouble or anything, it's just forum policy in order to keep threads clean.

 

More on topic: I can see where both sides are coming from, I think, and if I had to wager a guess, I'd say that it's a lot of not understanding both sides. The point that Leinton and Abalidoth are making is not "Kaladin being straight is offensive" so much as the idea that Kaladin must be straight on the basis of his interest in women. Leinton is pointing out that the logical line of "Kaladin expresses interest in women, therefore he cannot be interested in men" is a line of logic which is faulty in its execution because it denies the possibility of bisexuality.

 

Which Leinton, as he has self-identified as bisexual, would obviously have a problem with. Leinton isn't arguing that people should specifically take his personal preferences into mind, or give his argument special treatment because of his perspective. (Though the argument can be made that the perspective of someone from a different side is a worthwhile thing in all occassions.) Rather, the point being made is that we should all remember that bisexual and other kinds of queer people in general do exist, and the people making these points are trying to remind us that these options are posibilities. Leinton reads "liking women equals not liking men" and steps in saying "hey, I'm a direct contradiction to that line of thought, so I'm here to point out that there's something wrong with it."

 

(Oh look. Abalidoth just snuck a reply in above me, but I've already got this typed up so I'm leaving it.)

 

For those who prefer to headcanon Kaladin as straight, that's perfectly fine! No one's going to fault you for that, and truth be told, given both textual and metatextual evidence, it's probably the most likely outcome. However it is not the only possibility. And there are those who really enjoy imagining the other kinds of possibilities. Again, the quickest way to get into trouble with headcanons and shipping is getting into a "I'm right, you're wrong" mindset. That's where we're getting tripped up here, guys.

 

Those who prefer some kind of queer Kaladin aren't saying "People who think he's straight are wrong and we are upset that you think that!" They're upset that they're reading: "People who think he's not straight are wrong and your idea of Kaladin is impossible and dumb." They're trying to explain that "no, it's not wrong, there is a definite possibility here with really interesting implications."

 

Which, for the record, is probably how shipping and character discussions should go. No one's arguing that non-straight Kaladin is right or better or has more evidence. They're trying to show that it's possible. Just as straight-Kaladin is possible. Everyone's got preferences and different ideas of how things should turn out and how to interpret these scenes that we're given, and that should be celebrated.

 

Brandon's written such a rich character here with Kaladin, and I think the idea that he can only be reduced to one possibility is limiting and devalues the complexity of his character. Aside from all the other wonderful complications of his character and arc -- because this is, in fact, a relationship topic -- we have a character who has expressed romantic interest in women as a child through Laral, (though as Kogi said, most queer people come to a realization of their preferences later in life, when they realize that they can challenge those ideas) we also see him expressing very romantic, crush-like reactions towards Shallan. And there is the mysterious Tarah about whom we know so little, but things hint toward a significant relationship of some sort (though, knowing Brandon, and with how coy the text surrounding Tarah has been, I'm kind of thinking that there's something twisty and tricky there. I'm hoping that perhaps his relationship with her wasn't romantic as we were led to believe...)

 

To be honest, given his youth at the time of his crush on Laral and our absolute lack of knowledge of Tarah, Shallan is really the only outright romantic inclination that we have for Kaladin, and it's really not progressed anything further than fluttery, not-even-yet-realized, possible crush stages. To pull in Vinlend for an example, this is like... meeting on the balcony at the first ball. Kaladin and Shallan have a long way to go yet if they want to turn this into anything resembling something permanent. (Personally, I hope they don't go that direction though, but that's personal preference.)

 

And those initial flutterings of possible romance with Shallan do not invalidate the chemistry that Kaladin has with some of the male members of the cast, the two Kholin brothers in particular. Nor do they invalidate the ideas of those who wish to imagine possible romantic developments in those directions. They're all just possibilities, guys. Some more "plausible" than others. Some more interesting to certain people than others. But still just possibilities. Just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion does not mean that they think your opinion of the character is wrong.

[Shaggai]

The possibility of Kal being bi doesn't have much text support, however lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack.

Technically, it is. It's just not particularly strong evidence in this case, because we wouldn't expect much evidence.

[Greywatch]

Like someone said before in the topic, when it comes to this topic there have been two ways to approach it: "What I think is most likely to happen based on the textual evidence" and "What seems like a good relationship, extrapolating from the text."

If you're going to push me, I'll say yeah, Kaladin is most likely straight in the text, maybe ending up with Shallan?? But if you're asking me my opinion on the best relationship for Kaladin, absolutely it's Adolin. I said before they have the most chemistry, and I don't care about the text because they have the most going on. (Dramatic journey from distrust and bickering to brothers in arms and friendship! How wonderful!)

I hesitate to speak for anyone else, but maybe this applies to others in the topic, but - yeah, it's incredibly frustrating to see posts going "Kaladin is straight and you are all wrong" with no interest in even hearing why I think Kaladin might be good for another character... if they happen to be male. You're missing the point when you argue "but Kaladin only likes chicks" - I understand we've seen Kaladin only show interest in women thus far. It's not new to me. Why be so against the idea of exploring other relationships? It just seems like trying to be right instead of having fun and exploring the text.

Abalidoth and Feather had a lot of good things to say, bi-erasure among them, and just - yeah. Well said.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Greywatch

[maxal]

Just popping back in quickly to drop a few comments:

 

(bold mine) I'll admit, I laughed. I agree, Maxal. And there's such an easy solution to that. But I won't drag you all through that again, hehe.

 

Spare me I do not like the thought of Kaladin being invested in a romantic relationship with either of the Kohlin brothers. Bromance with Adolin is great and I would prefer if it remained simple friendship.

 

 

 

Whew, here I'll disagree, at least at the part of his path being the hardest to read. I'll say this: yes, Kaladin's had a hard life, but I've never had anything more difficult to read than Shallan's backstory. You can hear me on Splintercast, just moaning through every flashback chapter. "It's so well-written, but it's so difficult to push myself through." Like, I don't have an abusive family (my family is wonderful, and I'm blessed to call them mine) but I could hardly bear to read some of the awful things that Shallan has been through. 

 

I have listened to some of the splintercast, but not all. Your reactions were interesting to say the least, especially when Renarin was around.  It was fun to see which detail caught your attention I am really hoping to listen to your comments over the big duel chapter, albeit one of my favorite. FYI, I am surprised you missed my whole rant on Renarin the other day: I was sure I would be crucified for it

 

As for Kal, whereas I thought Shallan's story was sad, I felt more for Kal's story in WoK. Shallan was forced to do horrible things to preserve her family, but she was taking part of it whereas Kal was just standing around, powerless, and watching everything he loved being taken away from him. Somehow, the later was sadder for me to read. I have also made quite yet another rant on how I thoughts Kaladin's story sort of ruined any other KR we had, especially Renarin and to some lesser extend Dalinar.

 

 

 

As for Kaladin, I think his "moody and grumpy" part is where his character gets interesting. His canonical clinical depression and seasonal affective disorder make him a very rich and complex character in my opinion. I think it's something incredible that Brandon's doing here, even just aside from having a neuroatypical character. Because you're right, Kaladin is very skilled in many ways, yet those ways don't seem to make his life much easier.

 

In fact, during the early events of WoK, they almost seem to make things worse. Kaladin keeps talking about how he's the one who survives when everyone else doesn't. He recognizes his own skill as part of what's keeping him alive in these situations, but it feels worthless to him, because he isn't skilled enough to save those around him. It almost seems to him like a curse. If he were unskilled, he wouldn't blame himself, but because he knows that he's a good spearman and is good with medicine, it seems cruel that he still cannot succeed at the things which matter most to him.

 

 

Even after he accepts that he's probably not supernaturally cursed, he then realizes that it does come down to the fact that it is his skill alone, or lack thereof which has caused all of these "failures," and that with a little more effort perhaps, he could have saved them.

 

I really think it's interesting that Kaladin's skills and talents, of which he does have so very many, are being used to cause him problems and are a source of character conflict for him. It's really a very clever thing to do and I absolutely applaud Brandon for it.

 

 

Kaladin's depression was sometimes hard to read. At some point, I just wanted to shake the guy and told to get over it. *sigh* I am not the most understanding person with these matters I am afraid. However, what bothered me is how Kaladin always ends up saving the day. It is awesome, I liked to rout for him, but still, it was a bit much in WoR: Szeth, the chamsfield, the duel.

 

Albeit, I could write the same thing about Shallan who is always right and who is so smart she figures, on her own, what Jasnah and thousands of scholars (over the years) could not in the matter of a few weeks.... Well, she had some help, but I think I would have liked the outcome better if say Renarin actually helped her at the end (instead of being this insupportable whinny crazy thing). It would have been nice team work.

 

Bottom line, he is a complex character, but I felt Brandon built him up so strong others are pallid in comparison.

[leinton]

Insupportable whiny crazy thing? Renarin has been reduced to a thing? I mean like yeah, he wasn't supporting her like he could have been, but that's insultingly harsh. Renarin, within a moments notice, likely went from "oh no am I crazy?" to "I'VE BEEN CURSED WITH THE ULTIMATE EVIL OF MY RELIGION" and you're reducing him to a "thing"?!

 

You really are not understanding of these issues. It's good that you understand that, but could you please make an effort to do so? Renarin is autistic. Kaladin is depressed. Shallan dissociates. These are important people within the context of this world. This does mean that sometimes, they will mess up in ways that might seem ridiculous (like Kaladin wanting to kill Elhokar, for example). They actually really make sense, though. Renarin was actually panicking at that point. Not panic attack panicking I don't think? But still at a point in which he was going through a hell of a lot more than we can comprehend. He spends this entire book seeing things, hearing things, and seeing the future. So he pretends they're not there. Then he finds out that all three are real suddenly, and one of those things is among the worst offenses of the religion he was raised in.

 

More than anything though, he is not a thing. He is a person. Please, please do not treat him as anything less.

 

Also, to Xian, sorry that you don't seem to understand this, but sexuality is not sex life. I have never posted about that on here, nor will I ever as it is not the appropriate place for it. Thank you Feather and Abaldioth for your responses to that. 

[TheShogun]

There's a lot of discussion that revolves around the idea that "there is no evidence that Kaladin is anything other than straight"

 

Now I don't feel like searching through WoR for this, but there are definitely moments in which Kaladin comments (to himself) on Adolin's physical attractiveness. Perhaps he is looking objectively, or perhaps he is having incredibly graphic thoughts which Brandon shields us from because graphic sex is not a thing that Brandon does, or perhaps he is mildly interested. It's unclear, and we should therefore not rule out this as possible evidence. 

[WitSpren]

 

 No, I'm insisting on boundaries. Linton's comment insisted that somehow any other readers should pay particular attention or sensitivity to his or her sexuality. The implication is that readers are doing something wrong by not taking special consideration of another, unknown, reader's personal life. That is a false premise  and its exhibitionist.  

 

To simplify the logic I'll paraphrase Linton'scomment: "Don't ignore my opinion because you don't think its relevant to the characters. If you do, then you are insulting those who are bisexual".[/background]

 

It is exactly relevant for the discussion whether a reader thinks Brandon will or won't write a bisexual character or hasn't written a bisexual character. To say otherwise implies that other readers need to make special considerations on one's opinion because that one is bisexual, not for any merit of the opinion. 

 

Maybe that's not exactly what was intended, but I can only understand the words written. Unlike verbal communication, forums only have text.

On another note, Is there something wrong with refusing to empathize with someone? Its not nice to refuse to sympathize, but empathy is not sympathy.  Is bisexuality something to be pitied? I didn't have that impression.

 

Empathy is understanding and FEELING the same feelings as another. I don't see why anyone should be required to internalize the feelings of another.

You are Spot On xianpoxi!!

 

There is much more evidence in the books (Mostly WoK) of Kal having a thing for Plants than Adolin.    After all he spent hours on end sneaking out to the Chasms at night to delicately stroke their stalks.    Sly even nearly "lost" herself in an effort to "enable" his obvious fetish when she went away to get him the leaf.

 

Definately, much more evidence there than having a "thing" for Adolin.    

 

Add to that the incident in the Chasms where Kal and Shallan are having a very pleasant conversation and then she brings up Adolin.    And Kal is like "Well THAT just killed the Mood!" 

[maxal]

Insupportable whiny crazy thing? Renarin has been reduced to a thing? I mean like yeah, he wasn't supporting her like he could have been, but that's insultingly harsh. Renarin, within a moments notice, likely went from "oh no am I crazy?" to "I'VE BEEN CURSED WITH THE ULTIMATE EVIL OF MY RELIGION" and you're reducing him to a "thing"?!

 

You really are not understanding of these issues. It's good that you understand that, but could you please make an effort to do so? Renarin is autistic. Kaladin is depressed. Shallan dissociates. These are important people within the context of this world. This does mean that sometimes, they will mess up in ways that might seem ridiculous (like Kaladin wanting to kill Elhokar, for example). They actually really make sense, though. Renarin was actually panicking at that point. Not panic attack panicking I don't think? But still at a point in which he was going through a hell of a lot more than we can comprehend. He spends this entire book seeing things, hearing things, and seeing the future. So he pretends they're not there. Then he finds out that all three are real suddenly, and one of those things is among the worst offenses of the religion he was raised in.

 

More than anything though, he is not a thing. He is a person. Please, please do not treat him as anything less.

 

Also, to Xian, sorry that you don't seem to understand this, but sexuality is not sex life. I have never posted about that on here, nor will I ever as it is not the appropriate place for it. Thank you Feather and Abaldioth for your responses to that. 

 

He is a character in a book and I am sure he is not offended I called him "a thing". Besides, it was just an expression. That Renarin is autistic is NOT clear in the book and I am sure most readers won't catch on that. The fact he is seeing the future is not something we know in the book either. All we know is that he sees. Period. No great explanations there and at the time of this event, we know nothing. So yes to the casual reader, Renarin's breaking down is sort of annoying, much like Shallan thought it was annoying. Not everyone reads a book while going through Internet to find explanations for everything. Most people just get into the story and feel how they feel as they read it. So sorry, but all you say is not obvious, not at all for one who is not looking for it.

[WitSpren]

He is a character in a book and I am sure he is not offended I called him "a thing". Besides, it was just an expression. That Renarin is autistic is NOT clear in the book and I am sure most readers won't catch on that. The fact he is seeing the future is not something we know in the book either. All we know is that he sees. Period. No great explanations there and at the time of this event, we know nothing. So yes to the casual reader, Renarin's breaking down is sort of annoying, much like Shallan thought it was annoying. Not everyone reads a book while going through Internet to find explanations for everything. Most people just get into the story and feel how they feel as they read it. So sorry, but all you say is not obvious, not at all for one who is not looking for it.

maxal, pretty much agree with you on this.     All Renarin's behavior in WoR were very understandable - when we are looking back.     They most all just fall together - and gives you an "OH!   That's why he was acting odd!" type feeling.      After all - he is way behind Kal and Shallan in his KR progression (my assumption & might be wrong).    Look how long it took them to get it Mostly together.    Even now they still have a ways to go.

 

But that chapter would have been a nice place for him to start turning around and at least be a little help.     I don't know how BS could have done it - without actually revealing that he was a proto-KR.

[FeatherWriter]

The fact he is seeing the future is not something we know in the book either. All we know is that he sees. Period. No great explanations there and at the time of this event, we know nothing. 

 

I'm sorry, but you are canonically incorrect there. It's okay, not everyone memorizes every single little thing to do with Renarin the way I do. (Remind me to tell you about the time that Chaos tried to tell me that I was wrong about a quote source when I said that it was Renarin who said it. He was wrong, I was right, hehehe. I gloated.) Anyway, yeah we definitely have canon confirmation of that:

 

“I can see it,” Renarin answered feverishly, his voice echoing in the chamber. “I can see the future itself. Why? Why, Almighty? Why have you cursed me so?”

 

As for these things about Renarin not being obvious, yes. I agree. You're right. Most people don't appreciate them or realize what's going on with him. Which is why I am here spending hours typing up long-winded essays explaining them. I can understand people who don't like Renarin during a first readthrough, or who aren't interested in him. I almost like that it takes more effort to realize how awesome Renarin is. Kaladin's easy to like. Anyone can like Kaladin. He's a likeable guy. Nothing wrong with that.

 

But Renarin? You've got to be looking to see it. Renarin is a "blink" and you'll miss it kind of character right now. But if you don't blink? If you go searching and seek him out and pay attention to him? Oh harmony, there is so much that is wonderful about him and all of his interactions and struggles throughout these books are incredible. And I'm not going to go into them here because I'll be here all night and I've written these essays before, I swear to the Almighty I have.

 

Basically what I'm saying is, you can defend your initial dislike of Renarin on the basis of a lack of paying attention or on ignorance. But I'm baffled by your attempt to continue to dislike him after seeing all of these arguments compiled in his defense. I mean, I suppose it's possible that even after all of this you still genuinely dislike him, but man you're going to throw a wrench in my hypothesis that the people who don't like Renarin are the people who haven't heard enough about him. Because it's a line of thinking that just does not compute with me.

 

And if that's the case here, then I probably don't have any more arguments to make on his behalf because there is pretty much nothing I'd be able to say that would fix that.

 

Edit:

I will say one thing in regards to his "uselessness" at the end. I'm 98% sure that Renarin is not in control of himself during the visions. The fact that he is writing should be enough to convey that -- seeing as Renarin tries so desperately to live up to Alethi masculine ideals, it's incredibly doubtful that he would choose to write anything of his own volition. The fact that he's screaming "a pleading cry" throughout the experience tips one off that this is not a voluntary experience either. He's conscious through the visions, but he's not in control.

[shawnhargreaves]

Kaladin's depression was sometimes hard to read. At some point, I just wanted to shake the guy and told to get over it. *sigh* I am not the most understanding person with these matters I am afraid.

 

This is a common reaction from people who are not familiar with clinical depression, and in some ways I think one of the harder things for sufferers to deal with.  Well ok, that's not true - the depression itself is the hardest thing :-)  but this kind of reaction from friends, co-workers and bosses doesn't help.

 

It's a natural enough response in many ways.  Depressed people don't look sick in any physical way - they're just really, really sad.  So why won't they cheer up?   You want to tell them they are being silly, everything is fine, it's all in their head...

But what's going on inside their head is extremely, horrifically real.  In many (most?) cases there is a physical problem where chemical imbalance prevents neurotransmitters from functioning correctly.  Other times the root cause may be psychological or something we don't understand yet.  I've had this described to me as a crushing black weight of hopelessness which makes it impossible to care about anything or focus on any thoughts other than an endless loop of self-reinforcing negativity.

Shaking someone who is going through this is unlikely to help them much  :-)

Edited May 7, 2014 by shawnhargreaves

[Kogiopsis]

He is a character in a book and I am sure he is not offended I called him "a thing". Besides, it was just an expression. That Renarin is autistic is NOT clear in the book and I am sure most readers won't catch on that. The fact he is seeing the future is not something we know in the book either. All we know is that he sees. Period. No great explanations there and at the time of this event, we know nothing. So yes to the casual reader, Renarin's breaking down is sort of annoying, much like Shallan thought it was annoying. Not everyone reads a book while going through Internet to find explanations for everything. Most people just get into the story and feel how they feel as they read it. So sorry, but all you say is not obvious, not at all for one who is not looking for it.

.............

I don't know whether I've mentioned this?  I feel like I have.  Anyhow, one of my roommates is one of the people who has provided writing reference for Brandon re: Renarin - they wrote up a 4 page document about autism, anxiety, and seizures for him, and when we went to the WoR signing in our area he recognized them.

 

I mention this to establish my credibility, sort of, but also because of the circumstances in which this came to be.  See, my roommate and their then-not-yet-girlfriend were at a con together, and they'd gone to a dancing class thing, and dancing with their crush had actually caused my roommate to have a panic attack.  They wound up collapsed on the floor in the hall for almost half an hour, trying to calm down.  Thankfully, Girlfriend was cosplaying Hermann Gottlieb that day and so had a cane with her, which she lent to Roommate so that they could walk around.  Those are the circumstances in which Roommate met Brandon, and in which they explained how much Renarin meant to them as an autistic/disabled character: still shaking post-seizure, cosplay makeup awry, walking with a cane and human assistance to stay upright.

 

You don't know my roommate, obviously, but... you do know that they exist, or at least that people like them exist.  Moreover, it's not hard to see how shallowly autistic people are portrayed in media, as a rule; they're rarely more than a collection of stereotypes, to be mocked or pitied but never to be heroes.  They're not written as 'people who are also on the autism spectrum'; they're written as if autism is their primary traits.  Given that, it's no great logical leap to see why Renarin matters.

 

Renarin is different.  He's written with a great deal more nuance than pretty much any other canonically ASD character in media, and a great deal more respect.  Moreover, he's positioned as a protagonist and, very likely, a future hero - as evidenced by Brandon saying that he's going to be important enough, eventually, to merit his own flashback book.  (He's also referred to as 'a key character' in the acknowledgements.  Just saying.)  That makes him incredibly special and valuable to people like my roommate, who don't get to see themselves represented in fiction like this.

 

So... when you call him a 'thing', no, he's not personally offended.  But the people he's based on?  The people for whom he might be the first time they get to see themselves as heroes?  You better believe that's offensive and hurtful to them.  And really, we live in a world where parents who attempt (or succeed in) murdering their autistic children are offered sympathy by the media.  People's lives are literally devalued by our society because of their neurotype.  They're treated as less than human - and they you single out the only autistic character in the series to refer to as an object rather than a person?  That's pretty gross.

 

((Also?  Renarin's autism might not be obvious to you, but it sure as heck is to a lot of ASD readers.))

[shawnhargreaves]

Moreover, it's not hard to see how shallowly autistic people are portrayed in media, as a rule; they're rarely more than a collection of stereotypes, to be mocked or pitied but never to be heroes.  They're not written as 'people who are also on the autism spectrum'; they're written as if autism is their primary traits.

 

Well said!

 

[theravenchilde]

[snipped]

However, Brandon knows we know he does the unexpected. Therefore, something slightly more expected is, paradoxically, more unexpected, and as such there are only two possible ships: Kaladin/Axies, and Kaladin/The Spanish Inquisition.

 

I'm down with Kaladin/Axies for crack shipping. Everyone should date a blue person.

 

As for what I would actually like to see, not Shalladin please, mainly for reasons everyone else against it has already stated. tdlr for the rest of my post, what everyone else said. I am, however, more than okay with a proper polyamory of Shallan, Adolin and Kaladin, and not all of that relationship has to be sexual, but its still a relationship. Not a love triangle. A relationship. I am going to emphasize that, because I see people still talking about them being "a functional love triangle" in other venues, and it annoys me for similar reasons as why others are much more justifiably upset at the bi-erasure happening.

Anyways, that is what I would like, and I could see it a. happening in some fashion and b. working out reasonably well in canon but c. much more unlikely than Kaladin being either only straight/gay or, unfortunately, seeing a queer main character, at least in the first set of five. Maybe by the time Brandon gets around to the second half, considering the sheer amount of other series he is also working on, he will have increased his characterization skills and will finally consider himself ready to write a queer character who you know, actually does things where everyone can see them and has to pay attention to.

 

I'm not even going to touch the Renarin discussion, as that is also being held in the neuro atypical thread, a more appropriate place for me to sternly lecture in. 

[Abalidoth]

I'm down with Kaladin/Axies for crack shipping. Everyone should date a blue person.

 

As for what I would actually like to see, not Shalladin please, mainly for reasons everyone else against it has already stated. tdlr for the rest of my post, what everyone else said. I am, however, more than okay with a proper polyamory of Shallan, Adolin and Kaladin, and not all of that relationship has to be sexual, but its still a relationship. Not a love triangle. A relationship. I am going to emphasize that, because I see people still talking about them being "a functional love triangle" in other venues, and it annoys me for similar reasons as why others are much more justifiably upset at the bi-erasure happening.

Anyways, that is what I would like, and I could see it a. happening in some fashion and b. working out reasonably well in canon but c. much more unlikely than Kaladin being either only straight/gay or, unfortunately, seeing a queer main character, at least in the first set of five. Maybe by the time Brandon gets around to the second half, considering the sheer amount of other series he is also working on, he will have increased his characterization skills and will finally consider himself ready to write a queer character who you know, actually does things where everyone can see them and has to pay attention to.

 

I'm not even going to touch the Renarin discussion, as that is also being held in the neuro atypical thread, a more appropriate place for me to sternly lecture in. 

 

I'd totally be down with canon poly characters in Brandon's work; I think that'd be rad. It's hard to write -- I know from experience -- but well worth it.

 

I'm... actually really optimistic re: Brandon and queer characters. I know it'll happen slowly but I know it'll happen, y'know? That said, I think Shadows of Self is realistically our best shot in the near future. Crossing my fingers Ranette gets a romance arc. (Double-crossing my fingers hoping it's Marasi but that's neither here nor there.)

 

(I actually legitimately ship Axies and Rysn though. I have no shame.)

[theravenchilde]

I'll just sit in my corner, by myself, with my fleet of ot3s that will never be canon. But hey, its not that important to me (I am not so concerned with shipping as I am with Eshonai and Thude and Axies and basically anyone who is at least not Alethi but preferably not human). 

Honestly, though, I'm not super invested in most Rosharan relationships, and so I don't give much of a crap who ends up with who so long as they're happy and healthy and no one is telling them they can't be together because they've never shown any textual evidence before for liking that particular gender.

 

(I could work with that. She can help keep him from being robbed all the time, and store his notebooks. He can help her keep track of people/places/things. Also, blue people.)

 

(I've talked about my hopes for Steris and Marasi to be super lesbian butt kicking sisters who rule their House with a steel hand of the law, but that's probably something for another thread)

Edited May 7, 2014 by theravenchilde

[DeployParachute]

 

I think you are misinterpreting that comment.   Leinton actually made a couple of different points:

1. Since the text does not explicitly say anything about whether Kaldin experiences same sex attraction, it's not accurate to jump to the conclusion he does not.
2. There are more possible outcomes than just straight or gay.  The statement "he likes women, so cannot be gay" is ignoring many other valid possibilities

 

 

That may be your interpretation of leinton's comment, but it wasn't mine, and the comment really bugged me.  Here is how I, and perhaps some others took the comment.

 

 

Also guys, please stop ignoring the possibility of bisexuality in characters. This isn't even because I think Brandon will or won't do something, but when you ignore that and just say "Kaladin isn't gay" you also are ignoring those of us who are neither straight or gay. 

 

Again, I would like to stipulate that I can't recall a single post from this thread where someone has flat out said that there is no possibility of bisexual or homosexual characters in the book.  Instead, what I see is people getting upset when someone states their belief that Kaladin himself is straight.  That is their opinion, and they have every right to express that opinion.  Reading leinton's comment above, I took that as saying "When you say Kaladin isn't gay...you also are ignoring those of us who are neither straight or gay."  That is the text of leinton's comment, and it unfairly lumps me and others like me who share our opinion as being insensitive to those who have a different sexual preference than our own. Which is so grossly and blatantly untrue that it can be upsetting.  It is not right, and contradictory to the ideals of freedom of speech and expression for a person to shame another into silencing their voice or opinion.  If that is not what leinton meant, then perhaps there was a better way that he or she (my apologies in advance leinton, as I do not know which gender you identify with) could have expressed themselves.  

 

More on the outcomes of sexual preference as evidenced in the text:

 

 

Absolutely, categorically not what he was saying. What's insulting to bisexual people isn't just not thinking a character is bi. It's using evidence that they're attracted to one gender as evidence that they aren't attracted to a different gender.

 

If you're really gung-ho to prove Kaladin's not attracted to dudes, whatever, go for it. (Although I'm not sure why someone would restrict their shipping options like that.)

 

It's when you start out with the ingrained assumption that he cannot be bi, therefore he must be either gay or straight? That's the problem.

 

By these arguments, we could make the stipulation that every character in the book who hasn't had text specifically stating they are not interested in the same sex has the potential to be bisexual.  Dalniar, Kaladin, Adolin, Renarin, Elokhar, Shallan, Jasnah, Lift, Gaz, Rock, Teft, Sigzil, and pretty much anyone in the entire series.  You are essentially saying that Brandon must provide explicit text for every character that he wants convey as being completely 100% straight.  This seems like a very onerous way to conduct theorizing and argumentative reasoning.  Regardless of what you believe about heteronormativity in the real world, in the cosmere universe Sanderson has created, heterosexual seems to be the baseline, and any deviation from this he has explicitly addressed with text.  It doesn't seem an unreasonable stretch to me that he would follow a similar pattern for SA.  That being said, I can get behind the idea that every character in the series is potentially bi, if that is the standard those putting forth the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" argument would like to adhere to.  

 

Quick mod note: Xian, please try to avoid double posting. If you would like to respond to more than one post, you can either use the multiquote button or quote buttons to pull more than one quote into your post. I've edited the double post together for now and you're not in trouble or anything, it's just forum policy in order to keep threads clean.

 

More on topic: I can see where both sides are coming from, I think, and if I had to wager a guess, I'd say that it's a lot of not understanding both sides. The point that Leinton and Abalidoth are making is not "Kaladin being straight is offensive" so much as the idea that Kaladin must be straight on the basis of his interest in women. Leinton is pointing out that the logical line of "Kaladin expresses interest in women, therefore he cannot be interested in men" is a line of logic which is faulty in its execution because it denies the possibility of bisexuality.

 

... ...

 

Feather, I just wanted to tip my hat to you for being such an excellent moderator in a thread that seems so very charged with emotion and opinion.

 

Now for my on topic opinion:

 

I voted for "Other" and would further qualify that as "end up with no one".  Despite my posts in the Shallan's Relationship thread that she and Kaladin seem to be building up to a romantic entanglement (again from my interpretation of the written evidence), I truly feel that Kaladin will be dead after the fifth book.  If he continues to be built up by Sanderson into this messianic leader figure, he will likely not have any other ending.  But then again, maybe that's just me being brutalized as a 10+ year GRRM reader